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crookedspiral

Atheism is incompatible with science

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Liquid Gardens
4 hours ago, Habitat said:

We might even say, thank God he  was the way he was, because if he wasn't, no-one alive today would ever have lived.

I wasn't sure what you were referring to here or maybe I'm misreading, what did Newton do that was necessary for us to be alive today?

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
29 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I wasn't sure what you were referring to here or maybe I'm misreading, what did Newton do that was necessary for us to be alive today?

If Newton had not invented gravity we would all be floating around in space. :rolleyes:

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Habitat
5 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I wasn't sure what you were referring to here or maybe I'm misreading, what did Newton do that was necessary for us to be alive today?

For the actual consist of individuals who make up the population, it is obvious that the downstream effects of the life of just one person, any person, or even seemingly minor events, can change that consist entirely. But in the case of Newton, not only that, but without him,the technical civilization we live in, has an entirely different trajectory and time lines.

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Liquid Gardens
52 minutes ago, Habitat said:

For the actual consist of individuals who make up the population, it is obvious that the downstream effects of the life of just one person, any person, or even seemingly minor events, can change that consist entirely. But in the case of Newton, not only that, but without him,the technical civilization we live in, has an entirely different trajectory and time lines.

Ah, thanks for the clarification, that makes more sense now.  I thought you were referring to some specific contribution of Newton, I think you are just saying that if any impactful historical figure didn't exist we wouldn't be here (although different people might). I personally don't think I need to go even that far back, if Hitler didn't exist I don't think I would, although I'm not going to say thank god he was the way he was of course.

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

if Hitler didn't exist I don't think I would

I thought the same thing, but when you think about it, if Hitler's mother did not have the friend that introduced her to his father, shall we say......the happenstance that changes the actual individuals who get to inhabit the world could be the most minor thing. Newton, had he not lived, or made his discoveries, the industrial revolution is probably delayed. That is a change in the way people live, regardless of who the people are. History is a conglomeration of accidents, and so are we.

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Imaginarynumber1
11 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

If Newton had not invented gravity we would all be floating around in space. :rolleyes:

Not me. I'd have my ground harness on all the time like those freaks in... ugh.. "Australia"

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Habitat
1 hour ago, Imaginarynumber1 said:

Not me. I'd have my ground harness on all the time like those freaks in... ugh.. "Australia"

I discern that you have been floating in a most peculiar way, for some time !

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psyche101
On 3/27/2019 at 7:08 PM, Habitat said:

I don't think so, so the answer to existence, appears then, to be nothing ? Nothing gives us something ?

You would rather not know, and argue all should be ignorant regardless of these discoveries? 

Personally I would say 'hidden' rather than 'nothing'. That makes more sense to me as I understand it. 

 

https://home.cern/science/physics/standard-model

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Habitat
1 minute ago, psyche101 said:

Personally I would say 'hidden' rather than 'nothing'.

So a mystery ? When you think about it, the human brain is a practical "invention" of evolution, it is the science that has some seeming prospect of being of practical interest and use, that gets funded, excursions into research of curiosities are a comparative rarity. We can assume that technical breakthroughs are the raison d'etre for the likes of the LHC, not the supply of resolution to the mysteries pondered by God-botherers and their antagonists. Were any such breakthroughs to be made, they would be purely incidental. We would be like the seagulls following the trawler, hopeful of some by-catch, but not the reason the depths are being trawled. I think your confidence that science is going to crack the fundamental architecture, and in so doing wrap up the whole conundrum, is optimistic, but not realistic.

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Will Due
20 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Personally I would say 'hidden' rather than 'nothing'. That makes more sense to me as I understand it. 

 

Me too.

Which is why it also makes sense that if, for whatever reason God is hidden, then in order to find him, a person must go out (or within) looking for him.

If you want to find him that is.

 

 

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Horta
Posted (edited)
On 3/27/2019 at 8:08 PM, Habitat said:

I don't think so, so the answer to existence, appears then, to be nothing ? Nothing gives us something ?

Who knows? That might be exactly what happened. I find the possibility that "nothing" can exist absurd and illogical to begin with. Yet we already know reality does't care if it seems absurd nor does it have to follow the logic of any particular ape species. It might be that nothing has to give us something.

The opposite, that something always existed, seems more logical until you think about it and realise there are more than a few problems with that idea too. Yet they seem our only options. 

None of this is really answered by mysticism, religion or god claims. They only bring more unnecessary complication that requires further explanation. Yet this doesn't happen for believers, it has the effect of being a thought stopper that stifles curiosity.

Though the claim that existence can never be explained (rationally or otherwise), therefore mysticism and god, is a fallacy. The premise itself has no foundation and seems to require fortune telling, therefore the conclusion is not only invalid, but in general has nothing to substantiate it anyway other than belief. It amounts to a guess.

Edited by Horta
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Horta

ps. the claim that existence will never have a rational explanation relies on assumption based on personal incredulity. It might be that we find a very rational explanation. Or we might not. The claim that we never will requires a closed mind, based on a guess.

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Piney
32 minutes ago, Horta said:

None of this is really answered by mysticism, religion or god claims. They only bring more unnecessary complication that requires further explanation. Yet this doesn't happen for believers, it has the effect of being a thought stopper that stifles curiosity.

"Religion is a distortion, dualistic thinking is a mental illness and blind faith unrealistic"- Lao Tzu

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Habitat
6 minutes ago, Horta said:

vps. the claim that existence will never have a rational explanation relies on assumption based on personal incredulity. It might be that we find a very rational explanation. Or we might not. The claim that we never will requires a closed mind, based on a guess.

As I have said before, you are welcome to invent an explanation. Anything ! It will be shot down in flames by logic, the very thing you hold out hope of an answer using it. If no-one can even invent a plausible scenario, how can there be one ? It is pretty clear to me that the jigsaw puzzle analogy holds, you can keep getting a better picture by adding more pieces to the puzzle, but does that information, that is internal to the puzzle, help me understand the existence of the jigsaw puzzle ?

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Horta
3 minutes ago, Piney said:

"Religion is a distortion, dualistic thinking is a mental illness and blind faith unrealistic"- Lao Tzu

Taoism itself is a very insightful philosophy. Once us apes get hold of things though, they usually end up a religion...I often think the same about Buddha and and the simplicity and obvious value in his basic teachings, then wonder where all the rest of the complicated nonsense and beliefs came from...Changing simple, useful and interesting philosophies into unatainable religious ideals and beliefs and seems like a human specialty lol.

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Habitat
46 minutes ago, Horta said:

None of this is really answered by mysticism,

How would you know that ? Mysticism does not operate according to what is logical and rational, and I see dismissal of it as a sure sign that the speaker does think the rational faculty is "God".

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Horta
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

As I have said before, you are welcome to invent an explanation. Anything ! It will be shot down in flames by logic, the very thing you hold out hope of an answer using it. If no-one can even invent a plausible scenario, how can there be one ? It is pretty clear to me that the jigsaw puzzle analogy holds, you can keep getting a better picture by adding more pieces to the puzzle, but does that information, that is internal to the puzzle, help me understand the existence of the jigsaw puzzle ?

The point is that there is no explanation yet. So making claims about the contents or properties of such explanation, or worse, claiming there never can be such an explanations because you don't see how there could be, amount to logical fallacies. They aren't facts, they're your beliefs about the future. Guesses.

 

Quote

Argument from personal incredulity.

"Asserting that because one finds something difficult to understand, it can't be true."

 

Quote

argument from ignorance.

"asserting a specific belief is true, because we don't know it isn't true."

 

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Piney
13 minutes ago, Horta said:

Taoism itself is a very insightful philosophy. Once us apes get hold of things though, they usually end up a religion...I often think the same about Buddha and and the simplicity and obvious value in his basic teachings, then wonder where all the rest of the complicated nonsense and beliefs came from...Changing simple, useful and interesting philosophies into unatainable religious ideals and beliefs and seems like a human specialty lol.

I noticed the only ape that screws up Eastern Thought is the Western one. They seem to think they do not need a understand of our language to understand our philosophies. 

In Nihonjin thought there is a tendency to simplify things. But you have to speak Nihongo to understand this. 

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Horta
12 minutes ago, Habitat said:

How would you know that ?

Simply by making extra claims that it can't back up.

Though I could easily change my mind. Give the mystical explanation. Let's see it.

Quote

Mysticism does not operate according to what is logical and rational, and I see dismissal of it as a sure sign that the speaker does think the rational faculty is "God".

Certainly agree with the underlined.

I see it as a sure sign that you don't understand the speaker. Your making guesses about what other people think about god now lol? Your way off.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Horta said:

The point is that there is no explanation yet. So making claims about the contents or properties of such explanation, or worse, claiming there never can be such an explanations because you don't see how there could be, amount to logical fallacies. They aren't facts, they're your beliefs about the future. Guesses.

 

 

 

I don't like your logic. You are invited to simply event a bullship story, and can't do it. No-one can. Because they are no stories that can answer it logically. How are we going to identify the "right" logical answer ? It will just "sound right" ? No one can even invent one that sounds right ! All have 0.0% plausibility.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Horta said:

Simply by making extra claims that it can't back up.

Though I could easily change my mind. Give the mystical explanation. Let's see it.

Certainly agree with the underlined.

I see it as a sure sign that you don't understand the speaker. Your making guesses about what other people think about god now lol? Your way off.

So there is nothing beyond reason and logic, that informs ? That is your creed, but it is just an assumption. You are caught in the loop !

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Horta
2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I don't like your logic. You are invited to simply event a bullship story, and can't do it. No-one can. Because they are no stories that can answer it logically. How are we going to identify the "right" logical answer ? It will just "sound right" ? No one can even invent one that sounds right ! All have 0.0% plausibility.

QED.

You are demonstrating my argument for me. Thanks.

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Horta
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

So there is nothing beyond reason and logic, that informs ? That is your creed, but it is just an assumption. You are caught in the loop !

That's another guess.

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Horta
8 minutes ago, Piney said:

I noticed the only ape that screws up Eastern Thought is the Western one. They seem to think they do not need a understand of our language to understand our philosophies. 

In Nihonjin thought there is a tendency to simplify things. But you have to speak Nihongo to understand this. 

I notice the simple translation of the two word phrase "carpe diem" into "seize the day" gets some latin scholars into a bit of lather. It doesn't mean that really, and that's just two words out of an entire language lol. 

It's a great shame that of all the interesting, imaginative and deeply thoughtful philosophies available around the world, the west inherited probably the most backward one.

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Habitat
10 minutes ago, Horta said:

Give the mystical explanation. Let's see it.

You are asking for a rational exposition of that which does not use the same language, you might as well ask for, say, a mathematical description of the taste of a mango. You would not be informed. The only way is to taste the fruit. The only way to understand mysticism, is to be the mystic.

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