onlookerofmayhem Posted April 12, 2019 #2126 Share Posted April 12, 2019 @eight bits I agree with your sentiments. I see no sense in declaring, "There are no gods." I simply don't know. I do somewhat agree that "There's probably no god." But that would depend very much on which god is being proposed. I don't really care to state a probability to the matter as I have no basis for such. I can't defend Mr. Dawkins in this specific matter, but it seems it was a retaliatory measure against Christian bus advertisements : "The Atheist Bus Campaign was an advertising campaign in 2008 and 2009 that aimed to place "peaceful and upbeat" messages about atheism on transport media in Britain, in response to evangelical Christian advertising." 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted April 12, 2019 #2127 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, XenoFish said: 8Bit. It doesn't matter if you are an agnostic are not. In the eyes of many theist, you're an atheist. You either believe or you don't. And yet I rarely if ever hear this from theists. The experiment was actually done on another forum. A Protestant apologist and I were into it, and I had occasion to mention that I was an agnostic, not an atheist. He said that he appreciated the difference. I was going to hell anyway, because that is the fate of all unbelievers, but he agreed that I was no atheist. That's all I ask. Oh, and speaking of distinctions, that your final destination depends on what you believe isn't true of all theists. Among Nicene Christians, it's a typical Protestant view. Catholics might think I'm going to hell for other reasons, but not for unbelief. Oh, and that Protestant apologist? He converted to Catholicism. I'm not going to hell anymore! @onlookerofmayhem Quote I agree with your sentiments. You and I are at peace. And yes, my understanding of the history of the bus placard campaign (and also of some other similar campaigns by other people unaffiliated with Dawkins) was that it was a reaction against various sorts of religious advertising. I'm all for people saying what they believe, and approve of Dawkins stepping up. I just wanted to point out a concrete difference between us: I wouldn't contribute to that campaign. I disagree with the placard (and probably also disagree with the earlier ads that caused the reply from Dawkins). Edited April 12, 2019 by eight bits 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sherapy Posted April 12, 2019 #2128 Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said: @eight bits I agree with your sentiments. I see no sense in declaring, "There are no gods." I simply don't know. I do somewhat agree that "There's probably no god." But that would depend very much on which god is being proposed. I don't really care to state a probability to the matter as I have no basis for such. I can't defend Mr. Dawkins in this specific matter, but it seems it was a retaliatory measure against Christian bus advertisements : "The Atheist Bus Campaign was an advertising campaign in 2008 and 2009 that aimed to place "peaceful and upbeat" messages about atheism on transport media in Britain, in response to evangelical Christian advertising." One can definitely argue the particulars and I certainly have on both sides, and my argument included my evidence. Same with Paul, one just can’t positi for or against a god as there’s no evidence. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlookerofmayhem Posted April 12, 2019 #2129 Share Posted April 12, 2019 @eight bits What are your thoughts on this terminology? : "Agnostic atheism is a philosophical position that encompasses both atheism and agnosticism. Agnostic atheists are atheistic because they do not hold a belief in the existence of any deity and agnostic because they claim that the existence of a deity is either unknowable in principle or currently unknown in fact." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheism it does seem to get a little complicated with the labeling aspect. it would be better suited to ask the individual you are conversing with specific questions pertaining to their beliefs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eight bits Posted April 12, 2019 #2130 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said: it would be better suited to ask the individual you are conversing with specific questions pertaining to their beliefs. Yeah. Also, many people volunteer a lot, and regardless of exactly what words they'd use to describe themselves, you often can "reverse engineer" how they'd answer the Question of God. As to compound terms like agnostic atheism, to me that sounds a lot like just plain agnostic, with the possibility of confusion between belief and knowledge. Agnosticism is as much about belief as theism or atheism. Nobody knows in any strict sense. Somebody says they know? Great. So, as to the Question of God, let's record their yes or no, and if beyond that we are interested in how confident they are about their belief, then we'll ask them that. For QoG, I believe one thing, or the other, or neither. How strongly is a separate issue, and so is why. Edited April 12, 2019 by eight bits 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aquila King Posted April 12, 2019 #2131 Share Posted April 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, eight bits said: As to compound terms like agnostic atheism, to me that sounds a lot like just plain agnostic, with the possibility of confusion between belief and knowledge. Agnosticism is as much about belief as theism or atheism. Nobody knows in any strict sense. Exactly. 'Agnostic Atheism' seems a bit redundant to me. Nobody knows for certain no matter who you are, so one could easily argue that technically everyone is agnostic by the most strict sense of the term. Plus there are many atheists who want to completely reject any association with the term 'belief' by saying that technically "atheism is merely the lack of a belief on God," and how "everyone is an atheist to the millions of other gods they don't believe in," etc. Though if we're all just being completely honest with ourselves, it's clear that the atheist leans more on the side that there just flat is no God of any kind, and the agnostic is more neutral to the possibility. Paradoxically, the more technical people get with these terms the less clear they all become... 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted April 12, 2019 #2132 Share Posted April 12, 2019 52 minutes ago, eight bits said: And yet I rarely if ever hear this from theists. The experiment was actually done on another forum. A Protestant apologist and I were into it, and I had occasion to mention that I was an agnostic, not an atheist. He said that he appreciated the difference. I was going to hell anyway, because that is the fate of all unbelievers, but he agreed that I was no atheist. That's all I ask. Oh, and speaking of distinctions, that your final destination depends on what you believe isn't true of all theists. Among Nicene Christians, it's a typical Protestant view. Catholics might think I'm going to hell for other reasons, but not for unbelief. Oh, and that Protestant apologist? He converted to Catholicism. I'm not going to hell anymore! @onlookerofmayhem Damned if you do and damned if you don't. That's the way I see it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted April 12, 2019 #2133 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, eight bits said: And yet I rarely if ever hear this from theists. The experiment was actually done on another forum. A Protestant apologist and I were into it, and I had occasion to mention that I was an agnostic, not an atheist. He said that he appreciated the difference. I was going to hell anyway, because that is the fate of all unbelievers, but he agreed that I was no atheist. That's all I ask. Oh, and speaking of distinctions, that your final destination depends on what you believe isn't true of all theists. Among Nicene Christians, it's a typical Protestant view. Catholics might think I'm going to hell for other reasons, but not for unbelief. Oh, and that Protestant apologist? He converted to Catholicism. I'm not going to hell anymore! @onlookerofmayhem You and I are at peace. And yes, my understanding of the history of the bus placard campaign (and also of some other similar campaigns by other people unaffiliated with Dawkins) was that it was a reaction against various sorts of religious advertising. I'm all for people saying what they believe, and approve of Dawkins stepping up. I just wanted to point out a concrete difference between us: I wouldn't contribute to that campaign. I disagree with the placard (and probably also disagree with the earlier ads that caused the reply from Dawkins). Oh well @eight bits, Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of [Jesus]. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2134 Share Posted April 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said: Would you care to open up your mind a little and not be so narrowly pedantic, or at least make an attempt in good faith to understand analogies? The 'truth' of 2+2=5 is not supported by rationality, which makes it just like your position on the beyond. All things are within the purview of reason to merely 'assess', provided that they are sufficiently defined which I don't think you've really done as far as beliefs about 'mysticism'. It would make you someone who does not know how to us a dictionary apparently. When you use the phrase, 'it may be', as you just did, that is by definition a guess. You are slipping. The proposition 2 + 2 = 5 in eminently suited to be evaluated by logic, and is not at all like my position on the "beyond", which does not reduce to simple arithmetic. I have actually very well defined what I believe mysticism entails, and on more than one occasion. As to my saying "I don't know" in relation to a proposition, that does not make me a guesser, on the contrary, it makes me someone who isn't prepared to guess. And if I say "may be, for all I know", ditto. You are the whining pedant is this discourse ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2135 Share Posted April 13, 2019 2 hours ago, XenoFish said: It is interesting though. God is a ambiguous term, yet always seems focused on the Christian deity. Yet, no one gets aggressive when arguing the existence/nonexistence of Odin. Probably has more to do with the dominate religious paradigm. Ah, very perceptive, what might the reasons for that be, I wonder. Probably cultural conditioning, as you say. People only get worked up over something, when they feel something of vital importance to them, is at stake. The atheist who is incredulous at people who credit any Gods as a possibility, and likens it to the belief that a rabbit's foot could be lucky, does not get involved in debates about the validity of religion or God, he already "knows" the answer. Therefore, those that do argue it, do at least give a nod to the possibility, and though that call themselves atheists, probably envy that supremely convinced, "real" atheist. But we don't have much grounding in Odin, and can't see that we are missing out on anything by ignoring an ancient, superseded model of God. There are, though, an annoying number of people in the current times, who do follow the more recent God fashions. Humans are great followers of all fashions, and whilst times have changed, there is still this residue of seeming believers, that is enough to create a tiny seed of doubt in the mind of the would-be atheist, that they are missing out on something in the ongoing, slow-motion, religious craze. What better way available, to try get rid of that doubt, than by ridiculing and trying to undermine by whatever means available, including logic that really isn't that logical, the claims of those that do credit the God idea. No one we are aware of, worships Odin, or sees any possible pay-off from it, so we feel safe in ignoring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted April 13, 2019 #2136 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Just now, Habitat said: Ah, very perceptive, what might the reasons for that be, I wonder. Probably cultural conditioning, as you say. People only get worked up over something, when they feel something of vital importance to them, is at stake. The atheist who is incredulous at people who credit any Gods as a possibility, and likens it to the belief that a rabbit's foot could be lucky, does not get involved in debates about the validity of religion or God, he already "knows" the answer. Therefore, those that do argue it, do at least give a nod to the possibility, and though that call themselves atheists, probably envy that supremely convinced, "real" atheist. But we don't have much grounding in Odin, and can't see that we are missing out on anything by ignoring an ancient, superseded model of God. There are, though, an annoying number of people in the current times, who do follow the more recent God fashions. Humans are great followers of all fashions, and whilst times have changed, there is still this residue of seeming believers, that is enough to create a tiny seed of doubt in the mind of the would-be atheist, that they are missing out on something in the ongoing, slow-motion, religious craze. What better way available, to try get rid of that doubt, than by ridiculing and trying to undermine by whatever means available, including logic that really isn't that logical, the claims of those that do credit the God idea. No one we are aware of, worships Odin, or sees any possible pay-off from it, so we feel safe in ignoring it. I only care what people do because of their beliefs. Any system of spirituality should encourage the individual to become a better person. Peace of mind, peace externally. However what I often seen is spiritual arrogance. To put it more exact, self-righteousness. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2137 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 minute ago, XenoFish said: I only care what people do because of their beliefs. Any system of spirituality should encourage the individual to become a better person. Peace of mind, peace externally. However what I often seen is spiritual arrogance. To put it more exact, self-righteousness. Anyone we know ? I don't think too many would complain with what you say there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted April 13, 2019 #2138 Share Posted April 13, 2019 16 hours ago, Habitat said: Why do I laugh at all this stuff ? because it really is all a bit juvenile, I actually pointed out the other day that Hitler may have been a mystic. Joan of Arc certainly was, and she too, went to war. These people do have a sense of being "in it" for causes other than their own personal interest. Why do I think your ideas are wrong? Because they don't exhibit anything but simple human qualities. Your exaggerating greatly to protect your pen pet theory. Even trading in common decency along the way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted April 13, 2019 #2139 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 minute ago, psyche101 said: Why do I think your ideas are wrong? Because they don't exhibit anything but simple human qualities. Your exaggerating greatly to protect your pen pet theory. Even trading in common decency along the way. Along with honor. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2140 Share Posted April 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said: Along with honor. What a beacon of rectitude you are, wolfie ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted April 13, 2019 #2141 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Belief is a tool. Use it wisely. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted April 13, 2019 #2142 Share Posted April 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Habitat said: What a beacon of rectitude you are, wolfie ! Hmmmm, The Golden Rule or a psychopathic war god! I'm brighter than you. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2143 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Just now, GoldenWolf said: Hmmmm, The Golden Rule or a psychopathic war god! I'm brighter than you. You are certainly more conceited, wolfie. What is considered de rigeur today, in the ancient past might have been considered deadly error. And vice-versa. You are "getting off" on your sense of "moral superiority". That has been, an error, in all ages. It is the ego talking, nothing more. The rules of society are very fluid, as time goes by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted April 13, 2019 #2144 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Habitat said: You are certainly more conceited, wolfie. What is considered de rigeur today, in the ancient past might have been considered deadly error. And vice-versa. You are "getting off" on your sense of "moral superiority". That has been, an error, in all ages. It is the ego talking, nothing more. The rules of society are very fluid, as time goes by. So you think a war god is more useful than the Golden Rule? As much as you try telling others how they are unenlightened, you don't show you are. I'm talking with common sense, not with ego. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2145 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Just now, GoldenWolf said: So you think a war god is more useful than the Golden Rule? As much as you try telling others how they are unenlightened, you don't show you are. I'm talking with common sense, not with ego. Within a society, the Golden Rule has proved to be beneficial, between societies, not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted April 13, 2019 #2146 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Habitat said: Within a society, the Golden Rule has proved to be beneficial, between societies, not so much. So a war god is the answer to problems between countries..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted April 13, 2019 #2147 Share Posted April 13, 2019 Has there ever truly been peace in the middle east? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted April 13, 2019 #2148 Share Posted April 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said: So a war god is the answer to problems between countries..... When all else fails, it seems thus. And it should always be the last resort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted April 13, 2019 #2149 Share Posted April 13, 2019 56 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said: Has there ever truly been peace in the middle east? Has there ever truly been peace in your mind? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted April 13, 2019 #2150 Share Posted April 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Golden Duck said: Has there ever truly been peace in your mind? That was a rather dumb reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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