Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
and then

Trump recognizes Israel's claim to the Golan

190 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Sir Smoke aLot
On 4/7/2019 at 12:42 PM, Phaeton80 said:


But thats exactly what he and those like him love to do. But when it comes to their own scripture, they rage against thesame superficial bashing tactics.

It would be funny if it wasnt so extremely, utterly sad.

It seems so, especially because he took part of scripture from his own religion and portrait it as Islam. Golden :)

While i do respect everyone's orientation be it political sexual or whatever, everyone is free to make their own choices but i always felt something strange about Christian Zionists, some theology experts say that it's oxymoron of sort. That's where Israel strength comes from, not from Jewish people but from Neo Capitalism.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
RoofGardener
On 4/7/2019 at 11:37 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Oh i almost forgot. Show me those verses if you can, thanks.

......

5:59-60. " Shall I tell you who, in the sight of God, deserves a yet worse retribution than these?  They whom God rejected and whom He condemned, and whom He turned into apes and swine because they worshipped the powers of evil: these are yet worse in station, and  farther astray from the right path...

On 4/7/2019 at 11:26 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I've just heard Bibi's election promise. Israeli government is largest insult to Jews in history. He will annex those settlements if he win (alto that is about to happen anyways). I just like when it's made official so that one bit of information does prove a lot of what we were saying here, Israel never wanted peace at first place.

Oh, I think they did. For over 50 years. But after the betrayal at Oslo, they got sick and tired of the intransigence and mendacity of the Palestinian leaders. How do you negotiate with people who's constitution still demands the destruction of the State of Israel ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Smoke aLot
Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

5:59-60. " Shall I tell you who, in the sight of God, deserves a yet worse retribution than these?  They whom God rejected and whom He condemned, and whom He turned into apes and swine because they worshipped the powers of evil: these are yet worse in station, and  farther astray from the right path...

That's exactly what i was speaking about :D This sura is one of the most beautiful because it lays down the path to follow, includes hints for behavior, to restrain from gambling, intoxication, slavery, murder... If you had read it you would not provide that part as evidence for hatred because it is exactly the opposite :D

 

58 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

because they worshipped the powers of evil: these are yet worse in station, and  farther astray from the right path...

Does it say that Christians or Jews are ''powers of evil'' or mean people among them like those those pagans who attacked first Muslims? Also, that wording is strange but translation can be rough.

From the same Surah :

Quote

''

And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a moderate community, but many of them - evil is that which they do.'' ...

''Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.''

And they did slain innocent souls in the land. This surah also talks about covenant which people had with God but it has been corrupted in a way that only those before had covenant. This is why Quran is hated because it shows things which were also part of Christianity and Judaism. 

Now, i do not want to debate this at all, read whole surah not for me but to clear your prejudice my friend. I end this here even tho i could write for hours and show you how wrong you are but i can't blame you for not reading that which you do not like. I just have to ask you, politely, to restrain from commenting verses if you do not understand them. That sura is long very long in it's content but not as much in mere words which can be cherry picked for anything.

40 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Oh, I think they did.

I don't, this charade with Golan speaks for itself not to mention that Israel never declared it's borders. Desire for Letani is still strong too.

41 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

But after the betrayal at Oslo

From the accords : 

Article 8 (part):

''In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Council will establish a strong police force, while Israel will continue to carry the responsibility for defending against external threats''

Article 13 (part):

REDEPLOYMENT OF ISRAELI FORCES 1. After the entry into force of this Declaration of Principles, and not later than the eve of elections for the Council, a redeployment of Israeli military forces in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip will take place, in addition to withdrawal of Israeli forces carried out in accordance with Article XIV.

2.2. In redeploying its military forces, Israel will be guided by the principle that its military forces should be (my comment: but not demanded or necessity, just a recommendation by UN ;) ) redeployed outside populated areas (meaning they might come back to populated areas).

 

I think that it's enough lol what a joke. I recommend you to read it, maybe worse for Palestinians than Camp David was. In short, after decades of almost 100% one sided aggression, Israel would be protector of Palestinians on Palestinians own land.

There is plenty of more, even resolutions which were demanded for Oslo accords to take place at first time were denied by Israel.

Resolution 242 : ''...(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty,
territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace
within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
2. Affirms further the necessity
(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;...

Here we can see two contradictions, easily spotted. Israel never wanted to withdraw, and now in 2019 it seeks to annex Golan Heights, dunno if i should laugh or be stunned by Israeli apologists behavior regarding ''the injustice of Oslo towards Israel'' well that injustice was the fact that UN prevented them to accomplish their vile goals, but UN didn't force it. Also telling.

Resolution 338 : ''2. Calls upon the parties concerned to start immediately after the cease-fire the implementation of Security
Council resolution 242 (1967) in all of its parts;''

Again, UN calls, not demands and legally that means a lot. I cant say for sure but it seems to me that UN was lobbied by Israeli supporters to large extent because resolutions against others were very harsh, many ended in armed conflict.

It's longer read but this can't be and wont be trivialized from my side.

What's your opinion? But honestly i do not expect you to follow me in the proper way, no insult intended it's just that i am used to that, i expect another spin but also i do have faith in your ability to try and think objectively here. Also i will take the same approach for any factually based claim that you make.

Have fun reading :)

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
with multi quote there is problem i doubt it's from my side, anyhow sorry for that i cant edit text to change color of my writing it should be noticeable
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Smoke aLot

I should use something other than 'quote',

>text

text

 

Ok it was mistake from my part, use code rather than using quote command for posts. Lesson learned.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RoofGardener
14 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I should use something other than 'quote',


>text

 

 

Ok it was mistake from my part, use code rather than using quote command for posts. Lesson learned.

The "quote" function on this forum is VERY quirky. If I want to MANUALLY quote something, and then follow it with additional comments, I have to do the quote bit, save the story, go back and edit it, and manually move the 'quote' area up to reveal more typing space below it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Smoke aLot
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

The "quote" function on this forum is VERY quirky. If I want to MANUALLY quote something, and then follow it with additional comments, I have to do the quote bit, save the story, go back and edit it, and manually move the 'quote' area up to reveal more typing space below it. 

Yeah, noticed it many times, it usually makes longer posts look bad. As if the site automatically place end of quote command after you start one manually for your own text but doesn't show it while you write reply. That in turn makes a mess in formatting? There is no problem with automatic quote of other members posts tho. I might be wrong of course.

Well, if you didn't read it because of that mess, i won't blame you :angry: :D 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RoofGardener
Posted (edited)

Resolution 242 : ''...(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty,
territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace
within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
2. Affirms further the necessity
(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;...

Israel withdrew from all occupied territories as per condition (i) - providing only that those nations respected item (ii). Hence Israel withdrew from Egyptian territories. 

Syria refused to declare peace (it is still - on paper - at war with Israel), and hence breached item (ii). Hence 242 does not require Israels withdrawal. (although annexing the Golan Heights WAS very naughty of them :P )

The Palestinians (through the PLO) rejected the resolution outright. They then went on to betray the Oslo accords by solemnly promising to remove the articles calling for the destruction of Israel from their Constitution. (a prerequisite to the Oslo talks). But they never did this. Arrafat even lied to the face of Bill Clinton, arranging a press conference with him in the Rose Garden to announce the changes, even though they had not then - nor have since - made those changes. 

By refusing to recognise the legitimate existence of Israel, they where in breach of article (ii), hence Israel was NOT obliged by Resolution 242 to withdraw from their territory. 

 

Edited by RoofGardener

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Smoke aLot
20 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

They then went on to betray the Oslo accords by solemnly promising to remove the articles calling for the destruction of Israel from their Constitution.

That is just accusation not reason enough to place blame on Palestinians. Why? Simply because they already agreed to sign a deal which did not offer true sovereignty but would ease the pain for them.

My point was also that Israel was not obliged by that resolution at first place so they did not plan to respect it. Camp David and Oslo were both unfair towards Palestinians and everything which was promised was not done. What happened to PLO after that? Palestinians were left without political leadership and even then, during 2nd intifada, nothing changed only constant is their blood being spilled in from of the eyes of the world.

Now so many years have passed and Gaza looks like garbage. West Bank and Gaza have no connection. And, again, Israel still hasn't proclaimed it's borders.

What i find absurd is how Palestinians are required to promise that they won't destroy Israel while they do not have any means to accomplish that :D Sorry that is in conflict with common sense and reminds me of crooked lawyers tactics but thanks for answer, all i hear from Israeli supporter side is the same thing all over again.

''It's Hamas who is to blame'' - Hamas was established around late 1980's out of the same reason as Hezbollah, foreign aggression.This is old Palestinian charter : LINK

Israeli source : LINK

I think that these were problematic for Israel, from article 19 to article 23.

Article 19: The partition of Palestine in 1947 and the establishment of the state of Israel are entirely illegal, regardless of the passage of time, because they were contrary to the will of the Palestinian people and to their natural right in their homeland, and inconsistent with the principles embodied in the Charter of the United Nations, particularly the right to self-determination.

Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong.

Article 21: The Arab Palestinian people, expressing themselves by the armed Palestinian revolution, reject all solutions which are substitutes for the total liberation of Palestine and reject all proposals aiming at the liquidation of the Palestinian problem, or its internationalization.

Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vis peace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland.

Article 23: The demand of security and peace, as well as the demand of right and justice, require all states to consider Zionism an illegitimate movement, to outlaw its existence, and to ban its operations, in order that friendly relations among peoples may be preserved, and the loyalty of citizens to their respective homelands safeguarded.

Where does it say ''destroy, kill, murder'' it calls for struggle against Zionism and for nations to outlaw them. Not equal to ''death to Jews and Jewish state''.

Maybe there is some other source i might be totally wrong and this is Palestinian propaganda? Hmm....

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
seanjo
On 30/03/2019 at 1:53 PM, Peter B said:

There are other ways of supporting Israel than by recognising the annexation.

Nah this isn't about land it's a religious war. I used to be for-giving land back, but HAMAS pushed me away from that when they attacked Israel in 2006 during the Land for Peace treaty. The Islamists aren't interested in peace, Israel should consolidate and defend and we Western "Democracy's" should back them up.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
seanjo
On 24/03/2019 at 8:01 AM, Vlad the Mighty said:

I've asked before, did you know, for example, that the Israeli Air force or Kheil HaAvir, when they attacked Russian/Syrian positions in Syria recently, they followed (unsuspecting) civilian airliners so that they'd be hidden on radar and the air defenses wouldn't be able to shoot at them for fear of hitting the airliners? Do you know that's how the Israeli "Defense" Forces behave? Does that sound brave to you?

Good, they're devious like we Brits used to be, a good way to survive when you are surrounded by (at least) 70 million people that want to kill you.

Edited by seanjo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RoofGardener
On 4/9/2019 at 12:42 PM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

That is just accusation not reason enough to place blame on Palestinians. Why? Simply because they already agreed to sign a deal which did not offer true sovereignty but would ease the pain for them.

.....

I'm afraid I don't follow you SSaL ? Your talking about "..agreed.. to sign a deal". However, I'm talking about BEFORE that. You have to recall that the PREREQUISITE for Oslo was that both sides recognise each other. 

Israel did this with the PLO, and duly ratified the recognition in the Knesset, albeit by an unimpressive majority. 

The PLO lied and lied and lied and squirmed and lied. They did not, nor have they ever, modify their constitution to remove the passages relating to the destruction of Israel, and declaring the very existence of an Israeli state as being illegal, which the quartet REQUIRED as a PRE-REQUISITE to STARTING discussions. 

Bear in mind that these where NOT the Oslo negotiations. These where the PRE-REQUISITES to the Oslo negotiations. The Palestinians therefore went into the negotiations on the basis of bad faith. They betrayed the negotiations before they had even started. So the INTENT or CONSEQUENCES of the negotiations are irrelevant: the PLO abrogated the whole exercise before it had even begun. 

Do you understand this, SSaL ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then
On 4/7/2019 at 5:23 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I've seen too much already, especially in the recent video which was shown to UN. Personally it takes a lot to bring out emotions from me but i almost cried when i saw that. Destruction and death is happening as we speak but you rather talk about hypothetical destruction rather than accepting facts from the ground.

 The situation which you believe to be hypothetical, I believe to be inescapable once the Palestinians have the opportunity.  IOW I take the rhetoric of Hamas and Hizballah seriously.  I believe them when they teach their 5-year-olds that Jews are less than human and show them maps of a Palestine without Israel shown in ANY size area.  Every time an attempt at peace has been tried, the Jews have given up land or autonomy and have been given death in return.  If, when Sharon had evacuated Gaza by force and handed it over to the Palestinians they had settled it and begun to attempt a peaceful approach toward Israel I would have believed peace was possible.  They sent rockets instead of emissaries.  They dug tunnels rather than engage in peaceful commerce.  The facts on the ground show what they desire and what they mean to do as soon as they are able.  They proclaim it regularly with their own words and their choice of heroes for their people to emulate.  You may think them justified but all it will ever bring them and their children is sorrow and death.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then
On 4/7/2019 at 5:23 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Are you aware that Palestinians had no arms since British mandate made sure of it.

I almost chuckled when I saw this but then remembered the bodies all over the ground after the buses and cafes exploded a few years ago due to Palestinian homicide bombers.  How, exactly, do you define "armed", SSaL?  Are not suicide vests and thousands of rockets to be considered as arms?

 

On 4/7/2019 at 5:37 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Oh i almost forgot. Show me those verses if you can, thanks.

7:166 But when even after this they disdainfully persisted in that from which they were forbidden, We said to them, "Become apes—despised and disgraced!" (Maududi) 

5:60 Then say: "Should I inform you [People of the Book] of those, who will have even worse recompense from Allah than the transgressors? They are those whom Allah has cursed; who have been under His wrath; some of whom were turned into apes and swine; who worshipped taghut [the devil or idols]; those are the people who are in a far worse plight and who have turned farthest away from the Right Way."(Maududi) 

Now, I'm sure you will dazzle me with your exegesis and your views may be in line with mainline Muslim belief.  I'll accept your view as valid for the sake of discussion.  The point here is that we in the west REGULARLY hear and see these phrases coming out of the mouthpieces of the Palestinian leadership and even their school children.  IOW it does not matter what I believe or what the truth is, it only matters what THEY believe and act on.  

On 4/7/2019 at 5:26 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I've just heard Bibi's election promise. Israeli government is largest insult to Jews in history. He will annex those settlements if he win (alto that is about to happen anyways). I just like when it's made official so that one bit of information does prove a lot of what we were saying here, Israel never wanted peace at first place.

I'm sure that there is a % of the Israeli population that want all the land, indeed, they want all the land promised in the Torah.  They are a minority and Israel is a secular state, not a Theocracy.  Tel Aviv is one of the most decadent and immoral cities on the planet in some ways.  The majority of the people of Israel are willing to try for peace if they think it had a chance.  They have a love of life and growing and producing things.  In fact, they have flourished despite the constant war.  Netanyahu is laying markers ahead of an unknown peace deal that he's about to be pressured to agree to.  And don't kid yourself, recognizing Jerusalem and Israeli sovereignty over the Golan were not "gifts" to Israel.  They were intended to get them ready to make a hard compromise.  It's really going to be interesting to see the details of this deal Kushner has put together we the Sunni Arab neighbors.  Just remember that peace and prosperity would literally remove the whole reason for the existence of Hamas and the armed wing of the PA.  

Whether I can see any reason for them to agree to it or not, I am certain that a time is coming when both Israel and the Palestinians WILL sit down, sign it and lay down their weapons - if but for a short while.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then
On 4/6/2019 at 3:11 PM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Maybe he did but since UN troops were there if Nasser was going to attack Israel he had to do it over UN troops. By doing so he would be exposing them to live fire and turn Egypt into one large carpet bombed territory.

If attacking Israel was not his goal, why would he have quickly built up such large formations so close to the border and at the same time demanded U Thant remove the UNEF force that was there as an obstacle to aggression between Israel and Egypt?  There is absolutely no factual basis to deny this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then
On 4/7/2019 at 5:23 AM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

No i am sure they would not, maybe they would nuke your behind too if they feel threatened. Heard about Samson option? I despise anyone who thinks like that, Israelis should learn how to behave from true Jews,

If you are sure they would go so far to survive then why do you desire a situation on the ground that could very well lead to that outcome?  The answer is that for some reason you do not believe it could happen.  You actually seem to believe the myth that Palestinians would ever be satisfied with less than all the land the Jews inhabit.  They make clear in their rhetoric what they desire.  I believe them.  The Jews believe them.  The Jews are not bound by Christ's commands because they mostly revile or ignore Him.  They don't practice "turn the other cheek"  their motto is more: "If someone rises to kill you, kill him FIRST!"  They have learned from 2000 years of abuse that this is the only way to survive.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.