bee Posted March 25, 2019 #26 Share Posted March 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: you mean the same caution when the Russians denied involvement in Ukraine and Crimea? remember how they denied the troops were Russian regulars? oooookaaaay I see the stance you are preparing to take on all this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 25, 2019 #27 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Just now, bee said: oooookaaaay I see the stance you are preparing to take on all this.... what stance is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 25, 2019 #28 Share Posted March 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: yes it would seem so. America and Russia are playing the same game. only Russia is playing it better. maybe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted March 25, 2019 #29 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said: What do we think - Archduke Franzferdinand Nicolas Madura shot by Gavrilo Princips an “American Agent” this time next week? Nah the election is still too far out. Itll happen close enough to election day that there isnt enough time for things to go horribly wrong before voters pull the lever. At least thats how I would play it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted March 25, 2019 #30 Share Posted March 25, 2019 didn't Putin say he was ready for new missile crisis, here it is. first troops, to secure missile site., then ships with missiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted March 25, 2019 #31 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, aztek said: didn't Putin say he was ready for new missile crisis, here it is. first troops, to secure missile site., then ships with missiles. I thought that he said that about he nuclear capable bombers he already sent there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted March 25, 2019 #32 Share Posted March 25, 2019 54 minutes ago, Farmer77 said: I thought that he said that about he nuclear capable bombers he already sent there? Meh, I thought he said that after Trump scrapped the intermediate ranged nuke pact. I wouldn't sweat it though. Both Russia and China both still have enough nukes to each blow up every US city with a population over 10,000. Who really cares if they make more? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted March 25, 2019 #33 Share Posted March 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, Gromdor said: Meh, I thought he said that after Trump scrapped the intermediate ranged nuke pact. I wouldn't sweat it though. Both Russia and China both still have enough nukes to each blow up every US city with a population over 10,000. Who really cares if they make more? gvmnt does. missiles from Russia and china fly a lot longer than from Cuba or Venezuela. they will have no time to hide in their bunkers. the rest of us meant to die anyway, but gvmnt officials want to be able to hide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted March 25, 2019 #34 Share Posted March 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, Gromdor said: Meh, I thought he said that after Trump scrapped the intermediate ranged nuke pact. Oh I think you may be right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted March 25, 2019 #35 Share Posted March 25, 2019 7 hours ago, Tatetopa said: Russians and Iranians both have expertise in oil production, they are probably just going in to help put the country back on its feet. Does that require military troops? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromdor Posted March 25, 2019 #36 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, OverSword said: Does that require military troops? Well considering there were already calls for military intervention based on humanitarian reasons, I would have to say "yes" at this point. Everyone is just mad because the troops are coming from a country other than ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted March 25, 2019 #37 Share Posted March 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, Gromdor said: Well considering there were already calls for military intervention based on humanitarian reasons, I would have to say "yes" at this point. Everyone is just mad because the troops are coming from a country other than ours. But the statement was that Russia are there because of they're expertise in oil production. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted March 25, 2019 #38 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Venezuela has just as much experience with oil, and under normal conditions need no help from anyone, 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted March 25, 2019 #39 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Yep. This will be just another example of a socialist death state before this is all said and done. Russia sent their troops to assess whether they need to send additional troops or to determine if they can train existing Venezuela forces as executioners of dissenters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatetopa Posted March 25, 2019 #40 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 hour ago, OverSword said: Does that require military troops? Well for me this whole thing is a stretch, but I think one big reason is petroleum. There are big reserves there that would be useful to control. For other oil producers like Russia and Iran, control of the resources brings stability and prevents some desperate rogue government from undercutting oil prices. For oil poor countries like China there might also be a reason to offer "aid or support" . I don't think the Russians are there to help the Venezuelan people, but they may find reason to protect or uphold Maudro if he is willing to bargain. He is in trouble, he is desperate and willing to make a deal NOW even if it is favorable to the Russians it may save his butt. I don't think the Russians care who is president, but Guaido might not have been ready to close a deal. Likely most folk in Venezuela know that to make the country go, the oil has to flow. As Aztek pointed out, they have local expertise with oil, under normal circumstances they don't need help. But these are not normal circumstances. Capable people in the state oil company have been replaced by corrupt political favorites. They have crippled their industry with ineptitude. Does it require military troops? To pull off this gambit- yes. Think of them as insurance OverSword. They are more than expendable pawns to keep us from escalating. If the entire government is undependable and corrupt, their presence is there in protect their technical assets from harassment and assassination; to ensure good behavior from the citizenry and prevent sabotage; to keep their chosen representative safe and in power. It puts the brakes on impulsive American adventurism. If the US set out to stabilize Venezuela, we would likely have sent troops. Bombing Venezuelan targets just adds to the chaos and refugees. Our wall is not built yet. We don't care for Guaido, he is our convenient pawn and front man. Our history has a few of these South and Central American adventures already. I'm sure you know why Nicaragua, Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala are sometimes referred to as banana republics. The United Fruit Company bribed and threatened to get huge concessions from those countries and even got the aid of the US military against recalcitrant regimes. Any country that studies American history could predict that eventually we would do the same in Venezuela, this time for oil. The Russians beat us to it. OverSword, you can couch it all as a corrupt, failed socialist socialist state with Russia there to train executioners, but I think you miss the practical perspective. Putin on the other hand is not an ideologue, but a chess player. Oil is there to be had. People want and need some stability to survive, they may accept Soviet aid if it feeds their children. Russia can burnish its reputation as a world state, and flip us the bird at the same time. Hard to resist. Putin might think the time is right. Missiles in Venezuela would be a great bargaining chip for them. We pull our missiles out of Europe and they stop building cheap bases (maybe never meant to be completed) in Venezuela. President Trump appears to be no friend of NATO or of paying to defend Europe. For the Russians, it could work out well. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted March 25, 2019 #41 Share Posted March 25, 2019 (edited) i read Russian article on lenta.ru, they said 2 jets brought about 100 men, and 35tons of cargo, the purpose is to fulfill contracts that Russia had with Venezuela before all this happened,m they say it has nothing to do with a danger of american invasion, nor they mention oil even once., https://lenta.ru/news/2019/03/25/venus/ Edited March 25, 2019 by aztek 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+susieice Posted March 25, 2019 #42 Share Posted March 25, 2019 13 hours ago, Tatetopa said: Why all of this talk of war? You would think Hillary was President after all. President Trump trusts President Putin and has good relations with him. The Russians and Iranians both have expertise in oil production, they are probably just going in to help put the country back on its feet. Or maybe Bee is right, It is just the fake news media still trying to destroy Trump. I was just going to say. Isn't Trump and Putin buddies? That's all I've heard about. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor Witness Posted March 26, 2019 #43 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Finally, a chance for Trump to show who wears the pants in this marriage to Putin. Oh, I forgot, Trump has already bowed down to his Boss & Daddy. Just what we need, another Russian Mob colony on our doorstep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 26, 2019 #44 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Raptor Witness said: Finally, a chance for Trump to show who wears the pants in this marriage to Putin. Oh, I forgot, Trump has already bowed down to his Boss & Daddy. oh please - do you really want America (and maybe the world) to be embroiled in a major conflict where millions of 'ordinary' citizens get killed / injured or have their lives ruined... ?... (+ troops) How do you fancy losing YOUR life or home..?.... or spending the rest of it disabled in some way..? Will you stop trashing Trump 24/7 if he goes to war with Russia..... is that what it will take...? Luckily I think Trump has more sense than to do that... and a good job too for the sake of all citizens where ever they may be...who basically want to just have a decent, law abiding life and live in a peaceful environment experiencing happiness with family, friends and neighbours... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor Witness Posted March 26, 2019 #45 Share Posted March 26, 2019 2 hours ago, bee said: oh please - do you really want America (and maybe the world) to be embroiled in a major conflict where millions of 'ordinary' citizens get killed / injured or have their lives ruined... ?... (+ troops) How do you fancy losing YOUR life or home..?.... or spending the rest of it disabled in some way..? Will you stop trashing Trump 24/7 if he goes to war with Russia..... is that what it will take...? Luckily I think Trump has more sense than to do that... and a good job too for the sake of all citizens where ever they may be...who basically want to just have a decent, law abiding life and live in a peaceful environment experiencing happiness with family, friends and neighbours... I never suggested a military option for Venezuela. They aren’t worth it. Russia has nothing to offer Venezuela, either. Just look at Cuba. The freedom to trash Trump, is what makes U.S. different than those commies you support. Trump pretends to be a dictator, like Putin pretends to be a President. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmer77 Posted March 26, 2019 #46 Share Posted March 26, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raptor Witness said: Trump pretends to be a dictator, like Putin pretends to be a President. Great statement! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted March 26, 2019 #47 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 3/25/2019 at 5:17 PM, and then said: I would be amazed if Trump gave an order to invade Venezuela. Bomb their military bases or blockade their ports for a while, maybe. The people of Venezuela voted for Guaido and Maduro ignored them. He's aligning himself with enemies of the U.S. and if allowed to entrench substantial forces so close to our shores it would be a serious, costly problem at some point. No one here wants war with Venezuela and it would be a very hard sell but if the nation sees Russian or Iranian forces being built up, that sentiment could change rapidly. When did Venezuela vote for Maduro? It's my understanding that Popular Will boycotted the elections and didn't want a UN referee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted March 26, 2019 #48 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 3/25/2019 at 7:43 PM, Farmer77 said: Nah the election is still too far out. Itll happen close enough to election day that there isnt enough time for things to go horribly wrong before voters pull the lever. At least thats how I would play it. You need a good ole shoe if you got spurs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raptor Witness Posted March 26, 2019 #49 Share Posted March 26, 2019 A blockade isn’t the solution either. The only solution is to do nothing, let the regime fail, and support the refugees crossing the borders, allowing limited immigration. No external force will work in this case. A failed state must be allowed to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavenHawk Posted March 26, 2019 #50 Share Posted March 26, 2019 On 3/25/2019 at 12:40 AM, and then said: The people there voted for Hugo and his "fairness" for the poor. Now, despite the nation literally floating on a sea of oil, the people are starving. Occasional Cortex and her crowd think that system is just dandy for the U.S. At some point, these maniacs are going to have to be reined in. Putin cannot be allowed an easy win here. No need for violent conflict, yet. But he needs to pay a very harsh price in real damage to his economy if he makes any serious moves to inflame the situation there. The Progs and MSM are what’s allowing this to happen. For two years, they have been hammering Trump for being in collusion with Putin. Now that the Special Counsel has found no collusion, the Progs and MSM will not accept the findings and that is giving Putin carte blanche. He sees Trump weak, but like everyone else has, Putin is underestimating Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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