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Russian Troops arrive in Venezuela

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Farmer77
2 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

The only solution is to do nothing, let the regime fail

Really gotta wonder if we had followed the first part of your sentence from the beginning would the second part be even be happening?

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RavenHawk
On 3/25/2019 at 2:29 AM, Tatetopa said:

The Russians and Iranians both have expertise in oil production, they are probably just going in to help put the country back on its feet.    Or maybe Bee is right, It is just the fake news media still trying to destroy Trump.

Venezuela doesn’t need help or expertise with oil production.  They need help in selecting better political ideology.

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Raptor Witness
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, RavenHawk said:

The Progs and MSM are what’s allowing this to happen.  For two years, they have been hammering Trump for being in collusion with Putin.  Now that the Special Counsel has found no collusion, the Progs and MSM will not accept the findings and that is giving Putin carte blanche.  He sees Trump weak, but like everyone else has, Putin is underestimating Trump.

Trump’s campaign chairman shared polling data with the Russians, if that’s not collusion, I don’t know what it is. 

The fact that the Justice Department doesn’t want to give the Russians another win, doesn’t mean that we are all stupid.

Trump might want to be a dictator someday, but he’ll never be a dictator in United States. Perhaps he could try Venezuela?

 

Edited by Raptor Witness
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Farmer77
2 minutes ago, Raptor Witness said:

Trump might want to be a dictator someday, but he’ll never be a dictator in United States.

IDK he took a great step forward towards that goal today with the Pentagon bypassing the constitution to send him funds for the wall and not a single soul seems to really care.

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Gromdor
3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

IDK he took a great step forward towards that goal today with the Pentagon bypassing the constitution to send him funds for the wall and not a single soul seems to really care.

Look at the bright side, it was obviously one billion dollars that the military didn't need.  We can trim that fat right out of the next budget.

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Farmer77
Just now, Gromdor said:

Look at the bright side, it was obviously one billion dollars that the military didn't need.  We can trim that fat right out of the next budget.

Holy crap you're right, they didnt spend it this year, they dont get it next year!

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Raptor Witness
Just now, Farmer77 said:

IDK he took a great step forward towards that goal today with the Pentagon bypassing the constitution to send him funds for the wall and not a single soul seems to really care.

I have not watched the news today, but good call.

The Pentagram wastes so much money in every endeavor that if they take from one program and give to another, they’ll just steal it back from their black budget.

Trump wants to appear like he’s Napoleon. If he invades Venezuela, then we will have something to talk about.

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RavenHawk
2 hours ago, Raptor Witness said:

A blockade isn’t the solution either.

Blockades are usually effective, especially in your own backyard.

 

The only solution is to do nothing, let the regime fail, and support the refugees crossing the borders, allowing limited immigration. 

I tend to agree but we do not live in a vacuum.  There are other players in the wings.  I doubt that Columbia and Brazil will just sit back and do nothing, especially leave their borders open for refugees to stream through.

 

No external force will work in this case. A failed state must be allowed to fail.

I also tend to agree with this but would it be worth it in lives and property?  A failed state usually costs more in both.  Can we allow another Cuba?  Consign the people to a similar fate?  If we leave it alone, the world will condemn us for not doing more to prevent the death and destruction.  Let Russia come in to prop up a failed state and tax their resources.  They are a little dog with a big bark.  They can’t sustain such a long-distance presence for too long.  If they do get a foothold, we can always arm the resistance with stingers.

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and then
On 3/25/2019 at 2:11 AM, bee said:

 

whatever our political persuasion we must be alert for the heavy propaganda that precedes war...

I can't help but think of Libya and what went on there - the Central Bank(s) and IMF don't like any oil rich
country to break ranks and run a successful economy without it being fully controlled..? 
Gaddafi and the Libyan People paid the price and I wouldn't like Venezuela to be Trump's Libya...
And I don't want the world to get embroiled in an unnecessary major conflict....

The first casualty of war is truth.... 

 

I agree that we shouldn't be led along by the nose on this but I'd remind you that Trump's so-called best buddy is hurting from sanctions and is angry about the situation he's facing due to his moves into Ukraine.  He's a little tough-guy by nature and would love nothing better than to turn up the heat on the U.S.  If gamesmanship is all it is, then no problem.  If we start seeing satellite imagery of missile emplacements or, more likely, mobile missile launchers being housed, that's a different story.  It still wouldn't require invasion.  A similar system being offered to Poland or the Czech Republic would do the trick.  

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Gromdor
3 minutes ago, and then said:

I agree that we shouldn't be led along by the nose on this but I'd remind you that Trump's so-called best buddy is hurting from sanctions and is angry about the situation he's facing due to his moves into Ukraine.  He's a little tough-guy by nature and would love nothing better than to turn up the heat on the U.S.  If gamesmanship is all it is, then no problem.  If we start seeing satellite imagery of missile emplacements or, more likely, mobile missile launchers being housed, that's a different story.  It still wouldn't require invasion.  A similar system being offered to Poland or the Czech Republic would do the trick.  

The sad thing is, given Kim's visible success, having nukes there just might be the logical step in Maduro's mind to stop any potential US invasions.  (I doubt Putin thinks it is stable enough to house Russian missiles there, luckily.)

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and then
1 hour ago, Raptor Witness said:

If he invades Venezuela, then we will have something to talk about.

I agree.  If he sends in ground forces - other than a contingent of spec-ops types for a brief period- I'd expect the Congress to be involved.  OTOH, I'd be even angrier if he did nothing and allowed Putin or Iran to start building ballistic missile capabilities ten minutes away from where I live.  Let's wait for some evidence to be presented and verified.

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Venezuela doesn’t need help or expertise with oil production.  They need help in selecting better political ideology.

That may be a bit arrogant, but to your point, I am sure that along with the troops the oligarchs will send civilian advisers to get production and supply chains functioning again. If the people can endure a short time of sacrifices, the advisers will get food in the stores and consumer goods in the shops once again.  Venezuela will be a happy functioning economy under the Russian model.  How great is that?.  We won't have to spend a nickel of US taxes to get it done. Let them take care of themselves. 

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Raptor Witness said:

Trump’s campaign chairman shared polling data with the Russians, if that’s not collusion, I don’t know what it is.

Polling data is now national secrets?  Business sells mailing lists to everybody all the time.  Phonebooks are available on-line.  That is hardly collusion.

 

The fact that the Justice Department doesn’t want to give the Russians another win, doesn’t mean that we are all stupid.

The Progs and MSM have been hoping that we remained stupid but people are waking up.  Barr is going to be clamping down on the real collusion case so this never happens again.  The political pendulum is swinging back the other way and there’s about to be a purge.  Trump is positioned in the right place.

 

Trump might want to be a dictator someday, but he’ll never be a dictator in United States. Perhaps he could try Venezuela?

Really?  I don’t think Trump wants to be dictator.  I think he will be happy with 8 years to turn around the country and improve it for everyone.  Get it back on the right course.  Obama was the one that wanted to be dictator.  Actually, he wanted to be the father of a new nation.  He wanted to be venerated like Lenin.  Trump with the willing help of the Progs and MSM will erase that legacy for all time.

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Tatetopa
3 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

The Progs and MSM are what’s allowing this to happen.  For two years, they have been hammering Trump for being in collusion with Putin.  Now that the Special Counsel has found no collusion, the Progs and MSM will not accept the findings and that is giving Putin carte blanche.  He sees Trump weak, but like everyone else has, Putin is underestimating Trump.

Maybe a lot of truth there but you are missing a point.  President Trump declared that Mr. Putin told him he did not meddle in American elections and he believed him over the evidence of his intelligence organizations.  That is when Putin knew he had a free hand.  He knew Trump would not do something silly to defy the collusion rumors.  Maybe it is a brilliant Trump strategy, I guess we will see. 

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Tatetopa
25 minutes ago, and then said:

I agree that we shouldn't be led along by the nose on this but I'd remind you that Trump's so-called best buddy is hurting from sanctions and is angry about the situation he's facing due to his moves into Ukraine.  He's a little tough-guy by nature and would love nothing better than to turn up the heat on the U.S.  If gamesmanship is all it is, then no problem.  If we start seeing satellite imagery of missile emplacements or, more likely, mobile missile launchers being housed, that's a different story.  It still wouldn't require invasion.  A similar system being offered to Poland or the Czech Republic would do the trick.  

Putin is a little tough guy, and seemingly a smart one.  Missiles are a gambit that can be faked cheaply and inexpensively and terminated at the expense of a couple of concrete pads and a hanger or two.  

Putin may be  a businessman in this regard;  more like a vulture capitalist for which we have provided the model.  Find a company (or country) with a plethora of undeveloped resources, a strategic market location, and a management willing to sell.  That is how fortunes are made.  If he can negotiate with the US to move missiles out of Europe in exchange for not putting any in Venezuela, he takes home a killer bonus for the quarter.

Maybe Putin is a long term thinker as many good chess players are.  Maybe he thinks his "American " problem will solve itself.  He is probably aware of all of the on line chatter about a divided America and some people's apparent relish for a new civil war.  He hears those comments about boots on the neck and tells his Twitter trolls to stoke the fires.  So much cheaper than missiles, and less susceptible to world condemnation than an unprovoked attack.

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RavenHawk
11 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

That may be a bit arrogant, but to your point, I am sure that along with the troops the oligarchs will send civilian advisers to get production and supply chains functioning again.

I’m sure that Brazil and the US could support Guaido in the same way.  Guaido will probably have the support of the local technocrats that actually know how to run things.

 

If the people can endure a short time of sacrifices, the advisers will get food in the stores and consumer goods in the shops once again. 

How many years has it been already?  We are passed short-time. 

 

Venezuela will be a happy functioning economy under the Russian model.  How great is that?. 

What good will it be for the Russians to fill the stores so when they leave, Maduro will return the state of the country back to where it was before?

 

We won't have to spend a nickel of US taxes to get it done. Let them take care of themselves. 

I’m all for that, but that is a very naïve position.  But shouldn’t that also apply to the Russians?  Let the Venezuelan’s take care of themselves.  I wish it was that easy.

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Raptor Witness
49 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Polling data is now national secrets?  Business sells mailing lists to everybody all the time.  Phonebooks are available on-line.  That is hardly collusion.

The Progs and MSM have been hoping that we remained stupid but people are waking up.  Barr is going to be clamping down on the real collusion case so this never happens again.  The political pendulum is swinging back the other way and there’s about to be a purge.  Trump is positioned in the right place.

Really?  I don’t think Trump wants to be dictator.  I think he will be happy with 8 years to turn around the country and improve it for everyone.  Get it back on the right course.  Obama was the one that wanted to be dictator.  Actually, he wanted to be the father of a new nation.  He wanted to be venerated like Lenin.  Trump with the willing help of the Progs and MSM will erase that legacy for all time.

 

Please don’t torture me with talk of two-a term Trump Presidency.  It’s a stillborn concept, and if you have any hope that there is still a heartbeat left, you’re hallucinating.

I saw those new voters standing in our precincts here in 2016, all wide-eyed and locked into the cult of Trump.That spell is broken. His brand is dead or dying. One mustn’t be two optimistic.

There’s nothing like being so close to a dragon, as to smell it’s breath.

 

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RavenHawk
23 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Maybe a lot of truth there but you are missing a point.  President Trump declared that Mr. Putin told him he did not meddle in American elections and he believed him over the evidence of his intelligence organizations.  That is when Putin knew he had a free hand.  He knew Trump would not do something silly to defy the collusion rumors.  Maybe it is a brilliant Trump strategy, I guess we will see. 

I’m not the one missing the point.  It’s just Trump’s strategy.  I’m still surprised how people haven’t caught on.  Trump came into the job with the attitude of “what has happened is passed”.  This is a new slate and he’s giving people the benefit of the doubt.  He’s let them (foreign and domestic) to continue to think they’ve pulled a fast one but there always comes the time to pay the piper (the piper is going to be getting rich soon).  He’s given Kim, Putin, Rouhani, and Xi wide latitude in order to build trust.  He speaks well of them for a single purpose; to workout peaceful coexistence and the Progs and MSM undermine his efforts.  The old saying “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” applies here.  Trump meeting these leaders face to face is the ‘one in the hand’ and that supersedes all the intel operators back home (in the bush).  Sure, Putin interferes with our elections.  When have they not?  When haven’t we interfered with them?  Why didn’t Obama do something about it?  Obama was caught hacking Merkel’s Iphone.  Obama was caught interfering with Israeli elections.  The MSM has blown Russian interference all out of proportion.  It’s out own MSM that gives Putin the free hand.  Trump isn’t dis’n our intel services, he’s challenging them to keep up with him.

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and then
4 minutes ago, Raptor Witness said:

Please don’t torture me with talk of two-a term Trump Presidency.  It’s a stillborn concept, and if you have any hope that there is still a heartbeat left, you’re hallucinating.

I saw those new voters standing in our precincts here in 2016, all wide-eyed and locked into the cult of Trump.That spell is broken. His brand is dead or dying. One mustn’t be two optimistic.

There’s nothing like being so close to a dragon, as to smell it’s breath.

 

Ahh, the old, sweet song.  We heard its strains of cacophony and ridicule for 18 months leading up to that November night in 2016.  Well done!  Play it, Sam ;) 

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Tatetopa
39 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

What good will it be for the Russians to fill the stores so when they leave, Maduro will return the state of the country back to where it was before?

Who says they are leaving?

45 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

How many years has it been already?  We are passed short-time. 

Past is past.  If we went in today we couldn't get the goods flowing any faster.  

40 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I’m all for that, but that is a very naïve position.  But shouldn’t that also apply to the Russians?  Let the Venezuelan’s take care of themselves.  I wish it was that easy.

The Russians are in an expansion frame of mind.  We seem to be in a build a wall, keep all our problems outside, and  we will be in great shape frame of mind.  We are hesitant to support Europe and NATO unless they pay their way.  We would like to see the EU break up so that we could negotiate better trade deals with each nation.  We seem to be in a money now frame of mind, not a long term investment frame of mind. 

Light Venezuela crude is a world standard.  It is a great resource for Russia to control to put a check on the Saudis  You think about the Soviets in Syria or Afghanistan, large commitments of troops and materials with a thin payback.   Now consider Venezuela, a big payback with a relatively small investment.

The world has changed since the blockade of Cuba.  We don't have the world support we did then.

 

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Tatetopa
17 minutes ago, Raptor Witness said:

Please don’t torture me with talk of two-a term Trump Presidency.

Sorry bud, but it could happen.  If it does, it is likely to be the reign of vengeance.  Payback time for everybody the offended the President. 

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Tatetopa
21 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

I’m not the one missing the point.  It’s just Trump’s strategy.  I’m still surprised how people haven’t caught on.  Trump came into the job with the attitude of “what has happened is passed”.  This is a new slate and he’s giving people the benefit of the doubt.  He’s let them (foreign and domestic) to continue to think they’ve pulled a fast one but there always comes the time to pay the piper (the piper is going to be getting rich soon).  He’s given Kim, Putin, Rouhani, and Xi wide latitude in order to build trust.  He speaks well of them for a single purpose; to workout peaceful coexistence

Sounds like a great idea, if that is his strategy, wonderful. Peace is a good thing. 

 

23 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Trump isn’t dis’n our intel services, he’s challenging them to keep up with him.

What does that mean?  Should they just bring their operative home and ask the President what he thinks about various world leaders?  I am all for that too much cheaper.  Let the master plan unfold, I am sure some will be delighted.

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Farmer77
38 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Why didn’t Obama do something about it? 

LOL I love this situation you guys have created. On the one hand you scream about how when it comes to Russia Trump is better than Huillary because "she would have started a war" OK good political points there, but where you expose yourselves is when you later come back with "why didnt Obama do something about it". He did, there were high level talks between the two nations about it and sanctions as soon as the election was over. He also tried to hold a bipartisan press conference to publicly discuss the issue but the most evil mother ****er in America wouldnt go along with it. (thats mcconnel btw) so he abandoned that idea because of the obvious implications of partisanship had the admin gone public without republican support.

Could he have done more? Meh maybe but to claim he didnt do anything is just to ignore reality for the sake of having talking points.

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