Native American legends about the Vikings

[Hanslune]

52 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Thor Heyerdahl is pretty well known as a racist. I’d take anything he writes with more than a grain of salt. 

Piney and I have discussed him more than once. 

—Jaylemurph 

Yeah the first archaeological book I read was his, Aku Aku, he had his good points but he was pretty much wrong about everything. His museum in Oslo is great!

 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

On 21/04/2019 at 12:37 AM, Hanslune said:

  For fan i helvete!

Writing in Swedish, I'm disappointed in you Hanslune. I will never help you again. 

Spoiler

ok I probably will

"For fanden i helvede" is the phrase you are looking for. 

[flashman7870]

On 4/17/2019 at 4:00 PM, Captain Risky said:

The Kensington stone was found in 1898. At that time no one really knew that the Norse visited and had settlements in North America. The world only really new in 1960 when they found a Norse settlement in Newfoundland. So i can’t see how the Kensington stone is a fake if it’s discovery preceded archeological proof of Norse settlers in North America.

Theories that the Norse had visited America were widespread since the early 19th century, on accounts of the Sagas. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 22/04/2019 at 10:24 AM, Captain Risky said:

Did the Vikings Stay? Vatican Files May Offer Clues

In interviews and a new book, Dr. Heyerdahl and Per Lilliestrom, a Swedish map expert, claim that thousands of their hardy Norse ancestors may have prospered in the land that Leif Ericson christened ''Vinland'' in A.D. 1000. In their view, the colonists spread as far south as today's New York City, fishing, tending farm animals and cutting timber for several hundred years under the solicitous eye of the Catholic Church in Rome.

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/12/19/science/did-the-vikings-stay-vatican-files-may-offer-clues.html

Hang about, Vikings working for the Catholic Church? Isn’t it a bit early for Christianofied Norsemen? http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml

Edited May 18, 2019 by Sir Wearer of Hats

[Tatetopa]

57 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Hang about, Vikings working for the Catholic Church? Isn’t it a bit early for Christianofied Norsemen? http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml

I think there was even a Bishop in Greenland by 1150 or so.  but Erik and Leif were converted by the kind of  Norway.

[jaylemurph]

4 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Hang about, Vikings working for the Catholic Church? Isn’t it a bit early for Christianofied Norsemen? http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml

The christianization of greater Scandinavia took a few centuries. It was more or less over by c. 1100, well after most Viking voyages. I don’t know what records they’re discussing here; this is exactly what my current project is about, and I don’t know anything about it, nor has any reputable historian in the last 150 years. Records would be in the holdings of whatever the successor to the Hamburg-Bremen archbishopric is (beyond my area of expertise) or maybe in Saxo Grammaticus (and they’re not). I don’t know any other period source from that time/place off the top of my head. 

—Jaylemurph 

[danydandan]

13 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

The christianization of greater Scandinavia took a few centuries. It was more or less over by c. 1100, well after most Viking voyages. I don’t know what records they’re discussing here; this is exactly what my current project is about, and I don’t know anything about it, nor has any reputable historian in the last 150 years. Records would be in the holdings of whatever the successor to the Hamburg-Bremen archbishopric is (beyond my area of expertise) or maybe in Saxo Grammaticus (and they’re not). I don’t know any other period source from that time/place off the top of my head. 

—Jaylemurph 

You might have some success contacting some academics in Ireland, we have a good amount of history with our once Viking overlord's.UCD, NUI Maynooth or UCC would be your best bet.

[Skirnum]

On 22.4.2019 at 3:16 AM, jaylemurph said:

Thor Heyerdahl is pretty well known as a racist. I’d take anything he writes with more than a grain of salt. 

He is accused for both sexism and racism and also bad research. He claimed to be a scientist, but was not. I guess he was more like an adventurer. Not Nazi nor rasisct, but probably political naive and a child of his time. He`s son sais:  he`s views on both women and politics changed as he got older.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Skirnum

[Unusual Tournament]

9 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Hang about, Vikings working for the Catholic Church? Isn’t it a bit early for Christianofied Norsemen? http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/religion_01.shtml

Vikings had been in contact with Christianity since the 7-8th centuries.  

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Vikings had been in contact with Christianity since the 7-8th centuries.  

But there was a "grudge match" going on. The Vikings were raiding churches and monasteries in response to Charlemagne's efforts to convert the Saxons by force between 772 and 804. When he burnt Odin's sacred pole, the Irminsul in Saxony many of the Nordic Peoples were enraged.  

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

But there was a "grudge match" going on. The Vikings were raiding churches and monasteries in response to Charlemagne's efforts to convert the Saxons by force between 772 and 804. When he burnt Odin's sacred pole, the Irminsul in Saxony many of the Nordic Peoples were enraged.  

Early on, many Scandinavians welcomed Jesus as another helpful god to add to the pantheon of so many local gods.  It took a little while to figure out that the Christian priests didn't want addition but total replacement.  Thor was a very popular god of the common people and the hammer was worn by many who did not want to replace it with a cross.  That resulted in a lot of angry pagans surrounding enclaves of non-warrior priests sitting on some of the largest hordes of gold, silvery, and jewelry in the Northern world and telling them to throw away Thor..  Tempting, no?

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

 That resulted in a lot of angry pagans surrounding enclaves of non-warrior priests sitting on some of the largest hordes of gold, silvery, and jewelry in the Northern world and telling them to throw away Thor..  Tempting, no?

That's why they weren't really interested in sailing far. Plenty of Frankish Christian gold to grab. Why cross a ocean? 

20 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Early on, many Scandinavians welcomed Jesus as another helpful god to add to the pantheon of so many local gods.  It took a little while to figure out that the Christian priests didn't want addition but total replacement.  Thor was a very popular god of the common people and the hammer was worn by many who did not want to replace it with a cross.

Also in Anglish, Jutish and Saxon graves you will find both Christian and pagan symbolism as within the story of Beowulf, which was probably written for Raedwald's court of East Anglia. 

[Tatetopa]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's why they weren't really interested in sailing far. Plenty of Frankish Christian gold to grab. Why cross a ocean? 

Double like.  Three months at sea and possibly drowning versus a week long raid, glorious battle, wealth, and revenge.  Not a hard choice.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Tatetopa said:

Double like.  Three months at sea and possibly drowning versus a week long raid, glorious battle, wealth, and revenge.  Not a hard choice.

On top of the fact that they had Arab connections via Byzantine and were up in Russia dabbling with the Silk Road. 

[Unusual Tournament]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

But there was a "grudge match" going on. The Vikings were raiding churches and monasteries in response to Charlemagne's efforts to convert the Saxons by force between 772 and 804. When he burnt Odin's sacred pole, the Irminsul in Saxony many of the Nordic Peoples were enraged.  

I think when talking about the Norse we need to accept that they travelled and lived far and wide. Present day Norway, Sweden and Denmank would have been the pagan heart land BUT they resided in Russia, Ukraine, England, Scotland and France. At worse grudging respect for the peaceful god and at best secretive tolerance and conversion. 

Christianity represented modernity, education, medicine and science why the old pagan gods were fearful and superstitious. The pagans were never going to win out over the Christians. This constant exposure to Christianity over hundreds of years would have made leaving their pagan roots all the more easy.    

Edited May 18, 2019 by Captain Risky

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Christianity represented modernity, education, medicine and science why the old pagan gods were fearful and superstitious.

That's rather bias mate.

Considering advanced pagan Celtic medicine and advanced pagan Greek sciences and math were all lost when the Christians (Athanasius and others) burned all the books.

 

 

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

9 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I think when talking about the Norse we need to accept that they travelled and lived far and wide. Present day Norway, Sweden and Denmank would have been the pagan heart land BUT they resided in Russia, Ukraine, England, Scotland and France. At worse grudging respect for the peaceful god and at best secretive tolerance and conversion. 

Christianity represented modernity, education, medicine and science why the old pagan gods were fearful and superstitious. The pagans were never going to win out over the Christians. This constant exposure to Christianity over hundreds of years would have made leaving their pagan roots all the more easy.    

Thst’d be the same Christians who burnt down the Library of Alexandria and raped and murdered Hypatia would it? The clever clogs who put earth at the centre of the universe and who forbade surgery?

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

who forbade surgery?

.....baths and sewerage disposal.....

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, Piney said:

.....baths and sewerage disposal.....

They never forbade baths just public bathing, they never saw the need a bath and a bathing house was a load of heathen hooplah. I can see their point about not needing to take baths, it’s hard damn work getting a bath during an age before running sanitation.

[Unusual Tournament]

7 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's rather bias mate.

Considering advanced pagan Celtic medicine and advanced pagan Greek sciences and math were all lost when the Christians (Athanasius and others) burned all the books.

You see thats not right, Pinny. It was the Christian church that resurrected Greek thought, art and science, not the pagans of Saxony and Norway. Celtic medicine? i have no idea what that means BUT the passing of knowledge orally was never going to beat the systematic cataloguing and hoarding of information that the Western and Eastern Churches did. To the best of my knowledge the Celts didn't even have their own language and depositories of knowledge to even pass on this wisdom. 

Sure there were periods of zealous religion were books were destroyed BUT the concept of passing on written knowledge and creating schools was capable of creating societies greater than pole worshippers. Not saying that pagans were following a false god/ gods just that Christianity had the power to do more than just save your soul. 

[Unusual Tournament]

16 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Thst’d be the same Christians who burnt down the Library of Alexandria and raped and murdered Hypatia would it? The clever clogs who put earth at the centre of the universe and who forbade surgery?

...and the pagan destruction of Rome and Churches set back mankind more than any inter-religious schism. What is your point? 

EDIT: Dare to discuss what the pagans thought on the composition of of out universe? I think the Christians, Greeks and Jews were ahead of their time. If the world were pagan i doubt that mankind would have evolved beyond a flat earth and sacrificial world.

Edited May 18, 2019 by Captain Risky

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, Captain Risky said:

...and the pagan destruction of Rome and Churches set back mankind more than any inter-religious schism. What is your point? 

Rome’s destruction, wherein the Roman policies against the pagan communities were but a part, contributed to it’s fall. It wasn’t a case of “Pagans came, burnt everything, everything went to **** for a thousand years”. 

 

Thr Catholic Church was a wonderfully conservative (in the sense of preservation, not the political sense) force during the so called Dark Ages - providing they approved of what they were conserving. Greek theory? The concept of the zero? Aristotle? Plato? The Eristacus (or was it Euripides? Someone who started with an E) proof that the world is round? Nope, none of that stuff. We have that now because of the Arabs and others in the East, not the Western Catholic Church. Hell, they didn’t conserve Gospels, let alone a lot of pagan thought.

for every great idea of antiquity the Catholic Church scrupulously conserved, there was an idea thrown literally on a bonfire by a zealot. So no, even speaking as a Catholic, the early Church does not get called a great force for wisdom without a lot of caveats.

[Harte]

27 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Thst’d be the same Christians who burnt down the Library of Alexandria...

They took their turn at it.

Harte

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

2 minutes ago, Harte said:

They took their turn at it.

Harte

It was a rite of passage for everyone who ruled Egypt really.

[Hanslune]

59 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Rome’s destruction, wherein the Roman policies against the pagan communities were but a part, contributed to it’s fall. It wasn’t a case of “Pagans came, burnt everything, everything went to **** for a thousand years”. 

 

Thr Catholic Church was a wonderfully conservative (in the sense of preservation, not the political sense) force during the so called Dark Ages - providing they approved of what they were conserving. Greek theory? The concept of the zero? Aristotle? Plato? The Eristacus (or was it Euripides? Someone who started with an E) proof that the world is round? Nope, none of that stuff. We have that now because of the Arabs and others in the East, not the Western Catholic Church. Hell, they didn’t conserve Gospels, let alone a lot of pagan thought.

for every great idea of antiquity the Catholic Church scrupulously conserved, there was an idea thrown literally on a bonfire by a zealot. So no, even speaking as a Catholic, the early Church does not get called a great force for wisdom without a lot of caveats.

Yeah the Romans and Greeks were pagans when they created the basis for science (well more so the Greeks), they determined the earth was round and came up with many of the basic structural under pinning of our later scientific world view (not all of which stood up to later scrutiny).