Native American legends about the Vikings

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

...and the pagan destruction of Rome and Churches set back mankind more than any inter-religious schism. What is your point? 

EDIT: Dare to discuss what the pagans thought on the composition of of out universe? I think the Christians, Greeks and Jews were ahead of their time. If the world were pagan i doubt that mankind would have evolved beyond a flat earth and sacrificial world.

Not to comment upon the composition of the universe, but Celtic mythology does reflect the evolutionary process - a world of seas, that eventually became lands, trees grew, animals came from the seas.

http://theancientcelticreligion.weebly.com/origins-of-the-universe.html

of course, how much of this now reported is influenced by outside knowledge is grounds for discussion.

[flashman7870]

17 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

The christianization of greater Scandinavia took a few centuries. It was more or less over by c. 1100, well after most Viking voyages. I don’t know what records they’re discussing here; this is exactly what my current project is about, and I don’t know anything about it, nor has any reputable historian in the last 150 years. Records would be in the holdings of whatever the successor to the Hamburg-Bremen archbishopric is (beyond my area of expertise) or maybe in Saxo Grammaticus (and they’re not). I don’t know any other period source from that time/place off the top of my head. 

—Jaylemurph 

Erik the Red's wife converted right before he moved to Greenland. The Church was present from the beginning, and the bishop of Greenland basically ruled it as a theocracy until its demise. While they were not particularly faithful Christians around the time of the Vinland expeditions, they were Christians.

43 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Not to comment upon the composition of the universe, but Celtic mythology does reflect the evolutionary process - a world of seas, that eventually became lands, trees grew, animals came from the seas.

http://theancientcelticreligion.weebly.com/origins-of-the-universe.html

of course, how much of this now reported is influenced by outside knowledge is grounds for discussion.

So does Christian mythology- univere starts out as a huge sea full of strange creatures (Leviathan/Behemoth), plants are made, animals are made. It's reflective of human psychology associating water with primordial chaos, and placing plants below animals. It's not a special insight of any particular faith

Edited May 19, 2019 by flashman7870

[Harte]

3 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

It was a rite of passage for everyone who ruled Egypt really.

An ancient precursor to the old "Name That Tune" game show.

The "Burn That Library" show.

The place was burned so many times you'd think it was made of briquets.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

You see thats not right, Pinny. It was the Christian church that resurrected Greek thought, art and science, not the pagans of Saxony and Norway. Celtic medicine? i have no idea what that means BUT the passing of knowledge orally was never going to beat the systematic cataloguing and hoarding of information that the Western and Eastern Churches did. To the best of my knowledge the Celts didn't even have their own language and depositories of knowledge to even pass on this wisdom. 

Sure there were periods of zealous religion were books were destroyed BUT the concept of passing on written knowledge and creating schools was capable of creating societies greater than pole worshippers. Not saying that pagans were following a false god/ gods just that Christianity had the power to do more than just save your soul. 

You know those illiterate Romans. Latin was a language hardly ever written down...

—Jaylemurph 

[Unusual Tournament]

2 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

You know those illiterate Romans. Latin was a language hardly ever written down...

—Jaylemurph 

I wish you'd speak English. Hell i'd even settle for Latin. 

[jaylemurph]

3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

...and the pagan destruction of Rome and Churches set back mankind more than any inter-religious schism. What is your point? 

EDIT: Dare to discuss what the pagans thought on the composition of of out universe? I think the Christians, Greeks and Jews were ahead of their time. If the world were pagan i doubt that mankind would have evolved beyond a flat earth and sacrificial world.

You keep using this word pagan like it refers to a specific group of people. It doesn’t, so endowing them with identity or specific beliefs is grossly ahistorical and obscuring of the truth. Even the idea of “barbarian” “invasions” of the Roman world have largely been abandoned as modern methods of analysis and historiography have been developed. 

And it was just that sort of inter-Christian infighting that resulted in the burning of the Library at Alexandria. The last time, anyway. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Unusual Tournament]

Just now, jaylemurph said:

You keep using this word pagan like it refers to a specific group of people. It doesn’t, so endowing them with identity or specific beliefs is grossly ahistorical and obscuring of the truth. Even the idea of “barbarian” “invasions” of the Roman world have largely been abandoned as modern methods of analysis and historiography have been developed. 

And it was just that sort of inter-Christian infighting that resulted in the burning of the Library at Alexandria. The last time, anyway. 

—Jaylemurph 

pagan

/ˈpeɪɡ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. 1. 

   a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

   "a Muslim majority had to live in close proximity to large communities of Christians and pagans"

    

[jaylemurph]

2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I wish you'd speak English. Hell i'd even settle for Latin. 

Yeah, if something utterly decimated my point (pagan Romans were somehow less educated or loved learning less than Christians), I’d pretend not to understand it, too. 

—Jaylemurph 

[jaylemurph]

Just now, Captain Risky said:

pagan

/ˈpeɪɡ(ə)n/

noun

 

1. 1. 

   a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

   "a Muslim majority had to live in close proximity to large communities of Christians and pagans"

    

Yes, there were people who were pagan, but nobody — no tribe, no state — called themselves that. It was the Christians unthinking way referring to everyone they didn’t like. Saying they were a coherent group who espoused any specific point of view is a distortion of fact or a sign of ignorance. 

I can’t be bothered to figure out which applies to you. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

Yeah, if something utterly decimated my point (pagan Romans were somehow less educated or loved learning less than Christians), I’d pretend not to understand it, too. 

—Jaylemurph 

Silly man we're talking about the Christian Roman and Greeks V's the Germanic and Norse pagans. You've confused yourself again. 

[jaylemurph]

1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Silly man we're talking about the Christian Roman and Greeks V's the Germanic and Norse pagans. You've confused yourself again. 

Again, you seem to either not understand or pretend not to understand my point: Christian or pagan hardly defines any premodern social group. There were pagan and Christian Greeks and Romans and pagan and Christian Norwegians. Until well into the second millennium, they all participated in a common culture. 

You are making a distinction these people did not (always) make themselves. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Again, you seem to either not understand or pretend not to understand my point: Christian or pagan hardly defines any premodern social group. There were pagan and Christian Greeks and Romans and pagan and Christian Norwegians. Until well into the second millennium, they all participated in a common culture. 

You are making a distinction these people did not (always) make themselves. 

—Jaylemurph 

Who really cares for your intellectual twist on things? We're discussing Greco-Roman superiority in the arts of learning and what not from the 7-8th AD onwards. Please keep up! Many Norse and Germanic peoples came into contact with such thought and culture away from Scandinavia and Germany. Eventually Scandinavia also converted to Christianity. The Vikings in Ukraine and Russia converted to Christianity much earlier than lets say the Danes. The Vikings in England and France also. 

The Great Heathen Army is a prime example. Here we have the newly Christianised German Saxons calling the Vikings pagans, Barbarians.   

[Unusual Tournament]

@Piney please stop encouraging JayleMurph. The dude is wrong on so many levels its not even funny anymore.  

[Harte]

21 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Yes, there were people who were pagan, but nobody — no tribe, no state — called themselves that. It was the Christians unthinking way referring to everyone they didn’t like. Saying they were a coherent group who espoused any specific point of view is a distortion of fact or a sign of ignorance. 

I can’t be bothered to figure out which applies to you. 

—Jaylemurph 

Goy?

Harte

[Harte]

2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

@Piney please stop encouraging JayleMurph. The dude is wrong on so many levels its not even funny anymore.  

"Levels" you lack the capacity to illustrate.

Harte

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

@Piney please stop encouraging JayleMurph. The dude is wrong on so many levels its not even funny anymore.  

Ok! 

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

The Great Heathen Army is a prime example. Here we have the newly Christianised German Saxons calling the Vikings pagans, Barbarians.   

But they both acted and were culturally the same. Including their law codes which was based on Salic Law and not Leviticus. 

[Unusual Tournament]

3 minutes ago, Harte said:

"Levels" you lack the capacity to illustrate.

Harte

...its good to hear you finally built up the courage to venture an opinion, after sesh disappeared. keep it up!

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

But they both acted and were culturally the same. Including their law codes which was based on Salic Law and not Leviticus. 

No they were not. The Saxons were Christians and the Vikings barbarians because the Saxons had the intellectual power of the church to back them. 

Imagine if a spaceship landed on the White House lawn and the occupants said their god was more powerful. I bet we'd all convert on mass. 

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

No they were not. The Saxons were Christians and the Vikings barbarians because the Saxons had the intellectual power of the church to back them. 

Imagine if a spaceship landed on the White House lawn and the occupants said their god was more powerful. I bet we'd all convert on mass. 

Sorry, I was sent to England to live with, and be educated by English members of my family. I had English, especially Northumberland history jammed in every hole. They weren't that intellectual. My cousins, the Fenwicks were still holding Celtic-Saxon style raids up until the 1600s. It was called a "Hot trod" and they still hacked their neighbors to bits. In Bronte Country they still speak Middle English on the Moors. 

Even after having a private Quaker seminarian tutor My beliefs are still Native. Not Christian. 

[jaylemurph]

52 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I wish you'd speak English. Hell i'd even settle for Latin. 

You, uhh, speak Latin, do you?

—Jaylemurph 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

You, uhh, speak Latin, do you?

—Jaylemurph 

I have google translate.  

[Unusual Tournament]

6 minutes ago, Piney said:

Sorry, I was sent to England to live with, and be educated by English members of my family. I had English, especially Northumberland history jammed in every hole. They weren't that intellectual. My cousins, the Fenwicks were still holding Celtic-Saxon style raids up until the 1600s. It was called a "Hot trod" and they still hacked their neighbors to bits. In Bronte Country they still speak Middle English on the Moors. 

Even after having a private Quaker seminarian tutor My beliefs are still Native. Not Christian. 

Piney whether you like it or not you are the sum total of a Christian society based on Greco-Roman thought. Cal yourself Thunderheart and scalp as any white men as you like you, will never get rid of it. Effectively you have been exposed to a greater thinking and technology than your native american roots.

Edited May 19, 2019 by Captain Risky

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Piney whether you like it or not you are the sum total of a Christian society based on Greco-Roman thought. Cal yourself Thunderheart and scalp as any white men as you like you, will never get rid of it. Effectively you have been exposed to a great thinking and technology. 

True. But if you met any of those North Yorkshire Moor dwelling hominids I use to pub cruise with you be be sure as **** the English aren't that advanced.........

...nor would you understand a word they said. 

I was so glad to be back in the civilization of the North Woods. 

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

True. But if you met any of those North Yorkshire Moor dwelling hominids I use to pub cruise with you be be sure as **** the English aren't that advanced.........

...nor would you understand a word they said. 

I was so glad to be back in the civilization of the North Woods. 

I hear ya. There are chit loads of neanderthals here in Australia trying to pass themselves off as civilised also. Scary thinking what these people would be like with out the moderating influence of religion or even police forensics.