Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Captain Risky

Native American legends about the Vikings

362 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Piney
1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

I hear ya. There are chit loads of neanderthals here in Australia trying to pass themselves off as civilised also. Scary thinking what these people would be like with out the moderating influence of religion or even police forensics. :D 

I wish I could take you out drinking with my SAS mates. I'm the "reserved" one. :lol: 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats
2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

I wish you'd speak English. Hell i'd even settle for Latin. 

I once, with the aid of my phone and a grounding in school boy Italian, got up in front of my students and demonstrated a High Church Mass in Latin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Captain Risky
1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I once, with the aid of my phone and a grounding in school boy Italian, got up in front of my students and demonstrated a High Church Mass in Latin.

Good for you. I hope you threw in a couple of swear words into the sermon. Just to add a bit of authenticity.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Good for you. I hope you threw in a couple of swear words into the sermon. Just to add a bit of authenticity.   

WWEELL my boss was watching as well, and he DOES speak Latin because he used to be a priest before becoming a principal.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skirnum
Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Piney whether you like it or not you are the sum total of a Christian society based on Greco-Roman thought. Cal yourself Thunderheart and scalp as any white men as you like you, will never get rid of it. Effectively you have been exposed to a greater thinking and technology than your native american roots.

Here is a thought from me. Maybe Christianity was infiltrated by giants. By that I mean people lusting for power and gold. Described in the book of Enoch as consumers of animals and humans, and the enemy of the thunder God. Like Gilgamesh they wanted to be like the Gods. One can wonder what kind of inherence they would leave us with?

Maybe a world made by human mind instead of a natural developed world where human live in harmony with nature. Then we can look at our world today. Insects and animal dies rapidly while the temperature are increasing soon to be irreversible as the scientists say.

Maybe we should listen to Jonas sign and turn around. And let the God of thunder kill the Giants between our ears. I think we can all mature like the God of thunder did, and turn natural. hehe  :-)

Edited by Skirnum
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Captain Risky
3 hours ago, Skirnum said:

Here is a thought from me. Maybe Christianity was infiltrated by giants. By that I mean people lusting for power and gold. Described in the book of Enoch as consumers of animals and humans, and the enemy of the thunder God. Like Gilgamesh they wanted to be like the Gods. One can wonder what kind of inherence they would leave us with?

Maybe a world made by human mind instead of a natural developed world where human live in harmony with nature. Then we can look at our world today. Insects and animal dies rapidly while the temperature are increasing soon to be irreversible as the scientists say.

Maybe we should listen to Jonas sign and turn around. And let the God of thunder kill the Giants between our ears. I think we can all mature like the God of thunder did, and turn natural. hehe  :-)

After reading your post i just invoked the God of Thunder and let me tell he wrath was smelly. 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flashman7870

An interesting thing - granted this is concerning Viking myths about natives, but still;

"Of particular interest may be the claim that Arthur encountered ‘people 23 feet tall’ in the Arctic Grocland (?Greenland), as early Greenland sources apparently tell tales of natives from there who are 23 feet tall."

https://www.academia.edu/24217949/John_Dee_King_Arthur_and_the_Conquest_of_the_Arctic pg. 10

Possibly total fiction, or maybe a memory of the Dorset, who the Inuiit recall being giants?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
3 hours ago, Skirnum said:

Maybe a world made by human mind instead of a natural developed world where human live in harmony with nature. Then we can look at our world today. Insects and animal dies rapidly while the temperature are increasing soon to be irreversible as the scientists say.

It was once thought that my people were "tethered nomads" in which we just collected the local resources that were already here. Then Anthropologists and archaeologists like @Kenemet and @Swede discovered we were agro-foresters to the 9th degree who manipulated the "wilderness" and literally created our own "Garden of Eden". Maintaining it's own cycle of life, renewing itself and providing us with what we needed without working too hard.

The problem is we lost much of that knowledge and places like Rutgers Forestry School and Paul Smith College are still trying to figure it out. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
1 minute ago, flashman7870 said:

Possibly total fiction, or maybe a memory of the Dorset, who the Inuiit recall being giants?

I always wondered if the Dorset were "multi-cultural" and both Algonquian and Athapaskan.

Similar to the Hopewell Horizon which was both Siouian and Algonquian with Muskogeans on the lower edge. 

But both did towered over the Inuit. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flashman7870
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

I always wondered if the Dorset were "multi-cultural" and both Algonquian and Athapaskan.

Similar to the Hopewell Horizon which was both Siouian and Algonquian with Muskogeans on the lower edge. 

But both did towered over the Inuit. 

I am fairly certain the Dorset were not Algonquian. They lacked the bow and arrow, they did not seem to associate with the Innu (a certainly Algonquian people), and they were pacifistic to a fault. The Algonquians certainly did not take the actions of the Europeans lying down like the Dorset seem to have taken the actions of the Thule. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
36 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

I am fairly certain the Dorset were not Algonquian. They lacked the bow and arrow, they did not seem to associate with the Innu (a certainly Algonquian people), and they were pacifistic to a fault. The Algonquians certainly did not take the actions of the Europeans lying down like the Dorset seem to have taken the actions of the Thule. 

The Athapaskans brought in the bow and arrow.  

Were they possibly the Thule?

I'm not familar with anything other than the Coastal and Central Algonquians and Siouians . 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
flashman7870
8 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Athapaskans brought in the bow and arrow.  

Were they possibly the Thule?

I'm not familar with anything other than the Coastal and Central Algonquians and Siouians . 

Possibly they were the ancestors of the Thule, yes. That's most probable. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
13 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

Possibly they were the ancestors of the Thule, yes. That's most probable. 

I've just looked at the artifacts. Never studied the interactions. I'm not to popular with the Dine' at NMAI. I called them out on their "we were always in the Southwest" woocrap.

Being that you are familiar with my people and our state. I was Alan Carman's "Token Indian", one of his dig assistants and co-curators. Although I did bounce around with Bonofiglio. 

I  also called Cara Blume a moron which made me unpopular in Delaware. But that's what most archaeologists in the Northeast think. My tribe should of hired Jay Custer or Ed Lenik. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Tatetopa
On 5/18/2019 at 7:15 PM, Captain Risky said:

Who really cares for your intellectual twist on things? We're discussing Greco-Roman superiority in the arts of learning and what not from the 7-8th AD onwards. Please keep up! Many Norse and Germanic peoples came into contact with such thought and culture away from Scandinavia and Germany. Eventually Scandinavia also converted to Christianity. The Vikings in Ukraine and Russia converted to Christianity much earlier than lets say the Danes. The Vikings in England and France also. 

The Great Heathen Army is a prime example. Here we have the newly Christianised German Saxons calling the Vikings pagans, Barbarians.   

I know this topic has been thrashed already, but two more comments.  Pagans were not necessarily dark and grim.  Often they had a less neurotic and condemning view of the world than the Christians that replaced them.  They might be a lot less harsh and judgmental of other beliefs than Christians too.

Consider politics.  Pagan gods tended to be more localized, with different names and attributes from settlement to settlement.  Often celebrations of a deity were localized, not universal.  Unification of people brings unification of gods.

Localized pagan priests might disagree on doctrine, or even what god might be important to worship.  There was a certain direct connection allowed between man and deity, open to personal understanding and individual perception.

Christianity was a perfect state religion.  It had a very fixed hierarchy, and a strict interpretation of doctrine.  And so useful to the state, it had a human gatekeeper.  To get to god, you have to go through a priest, and the priests answer to a bishop. Often the bishop and the king were close allies. If you read the Sagas of the Icelanders, part of the impetus for emigration to Iceland was King Harold. of Norway.  He was trying to forge Norway into a modern kingdom.   He wanted all the land to belong to him and all the jarls to be his men.  

Consolidation was going on all over Northern Europe including the British Isles.

The Great Heathen Army is a prime example of the beginning the end of an age in my opinion.  Calling them barbarians was useful  propaganda.   Their major characteristic might not have been their religion but their structure.  They were war bands, loyal maybe to a hersir of jarl who had one or several ships from a locality.  They were warriors, not soldiers in the sense we understand them now. If they didn't think following  Ivar and Ubbe was  in their best interest, they could pack up their ships with their booty and go back to their farms.  Piney could say more, but the Saxons were only a little ahead in the kingdom consolidation game.

Rollo came down from Scandinavia and took Normandy.   He kept his power through personal loyalties and providing a way to riches.  A couple of hundred years later, Duke William came out of Normandy and conquered England. He owned his duchy and everything in it. His knights and liegeman held grants by his permission.  England belonged to him when he took it and was divided up to buy loyalty from powerful followers.  Christianity and the state were working in parallel in god sanctioned hierarchies,   All over Europe there were solidified Christian states and churches that were successful not for an enlightened view of god, but for an authoritarian structure very useful for governing large diverse populations that might not want to be governed.

I

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kenemet
On 5/19/2019 at 12:16 PM, Skirnum said:

Maybe we should listen to Jonas sign and turn around. And let the God of thunder kill the Giants between our ears. I think we can all mature like the God of thunder did, and turn natural. hehe  :-)

8 billion people "living naturally" would wreak more havoc on the ecosystem than we have going now.  If you think a "simple" lifestyle is eco-friendly, you should do more research.  It's only "eco-friendly" because there are few people on the landscape.

In an "eco-friendly" primitive group, everyone gets up and defecates outdoors in wherever's a convenient place.  Now, imagine a city of a million people where everyone does this every day.  For decades.  Or centuries.  Or they poop and move.  How long before they run out of places to poop?  How much land does it take to have a million tiny farms capable of sustaining a million families?  (It takes about 2.5 acres per person (with enough water) to be able to grow enough vegetables to survive on for a year if the crop doesn't fail... and this doesn't count space for meat animals.  Just vegetables.)  At 8 billion people and climbing, there's not enough land to sustain everyone with a small homestead farm... and that would not leave any space for wildlife or parks or trees, etc.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jaylemurph
6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I know this topic has been thrashed already, but two more comments.  Pagans were not necessarily dark and grim.  Often they had a less neurotic and condemning view of the world than the Christians that replaced them.  They might be a lot less harsh and judgmental of other beliefs than Christians too.

Consider politics.  Pagan gods tended to be more localized, with different names and attributes from settlement to settlement.  Often celebrations of a deity were localized, not universal.  Unification of people brings unification of gods.

Localized pagan priests might disagree on doctrine, or even what god might be important to worship.  There was a certain direct connection allowed between man and deity, open to personal understanding and individual perception.

Christianity was a perfect state religion.  It had a very fixed hierarchy, and a strict interpretation of doctrine.  And so useful to the state, it had a human gatekeeper.  To get to god, you have to go through a priest, and the priests answer to a bishop. Often the bishop and the king were close allies. If you read the Sagas of the Icelanders, part of the impetus for emigration to Iceland was King Harold. of Norway.  He was trying to forge Norway into a modern kingdom.   He wanted all the land to belong to him and all the jarls to be his men.  

Consolidation was going on all over Northern Europe including the British Isles.

The Great Heathen Army is a prime example of the beginning the end of an age in my opinion.  Calling them barbarians was useful  propaganda.   Their major characteristic might not have been their religion but their structure.  They were war bands, loyal maybe to a hersir of jarl who had one or several ships from a locality.  They were warriors, not soldiers in the sense we understand them now. If they didn't think following  Ivar and Ubbe was  in their best interest, they could pack up their ships with their booty and go back to their farms.  Piney could say more, but the Saxons were only a little ahead in the kingdom consolidation game.

Rollo came down from Scandinavia and took Normandy.   He kept his power through personal loyalties and providing a way to riches.  A couple of hundred years later, Duke William came out of Normandy and conquered England. He owned his duchy and everything in it. His knights and liegeman held grants by his permission.  England belonged to him when he took it and was divided up to buy loyalty from powerful followers.  Christianity and the state were working in parallel in god sanctioned hierarchies,   All over Europe there were solidified Christian states and churches that were successful not for an enlightened view of god, but for an authoritarian structure very useful for governing large diverse populations that might not want to be governed.

I

I don’t think it’s a good idea to generalize about Christianity any more than paganism. There wasn’t any single version of it — no universal Christian dogma or political slant. The fact people think there was is due largely to the success of the Latin-speaking Catholic  church destroying its rivals. 

The Catholic church became an ideal state religion because it was made to be by the decisions of many people over centuries; it had virtually nothing to do with the content if the religion itself — as indeed the content was again chosen and shaped often for political purposes.  

—Jaylemurph 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

8 billion people "living naturally" would wreak more havoc on the ecosystem than we have going now.  If you think a "simple" lifestyle is eco-friendly, you should do more research.  It's only "eco-friendly" because there are few people on the landscape.

And the Newagers and promoters of the "Noble Savage" myth don't realize we "culled" ourselves of the physically and mentally handicap and the dangers of nature culled the slow and stupid. Therefore our populations remained stable. The corn eaters were also just beginning to war for resources as it wasn't a viable staple because it was neither tolerant to drought and burned up the land. 

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skirnum
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Kenemet said:

8 billion people "living naturally" would wreak more havoc on the ecosystem than we have going now.  If you think a "simple" lifestyle is eco-friendly, you should do more research.  It's only "eco-friendly" because there are few people on the landscape.

In an "eco-friendly" primitive group, everyone gets up and defecates outdoors in wherever's a convenient place.  Now, imagine a city of a million people where everyone does this every day.  For decades.  Or centuries.  Or they poop and move.  How long before they run out of places to poop?  How much land does it take to have a million tiny farms capable of sustaining a million families?  (It takes about 2.5 acres per person (with enough water) to be able to grow enough vegetables to survive on for a year if the crop doesn't fail... and this doesn't count space for meat animals.  Just vegetables.)  At 8 billion people and climbing, there's not enough land to sustain everyone with a small homestead farm... and that would not leave any space for wildlife or parks or trees, etc.

I don't think what you describe here sounds natural. Technology is a good thing if we use it right. And there is probably lots of bright heads in science or other with ideas we can try. Harmony with nature I think is better than pollution. A modern natural way. I think so far.  

Edited by Skirnum
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
4 hours ago, Skirnum said:

I don't think what you describe here sounds natural. Technology is a good thing if we use it right. And there is probably lots of bright heads in science or other with ideas we can try. Harmony with nature I think is better than pollution. A modern natural way. I think so far.  

I keep telling my sister and her fellow biologists and zoologists.

We can't fix the environment. Damage done. But we can build a cycle that suites us. Not like the one the Nabe had. But one that works for today. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Skirnum
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Piney said:

I keep telling my sister and her fellow biologists and zoologists.

We can't fix the environment. Damage done. But we can build a cycle that suites us. Not like the one the Nabe had. But one that works for today.

I would not know where to begin, but i would go along. But if we make it, Jonas the prophet will be angry. I've often wondered why?  :-)

Edited by Skirnum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kenemet
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Skirnum said:

I don't think what you describe here sounds natural. Technology is a good thing if we use it right. And there is probably lots of bright heads in science or other with ideas we can try. Harmony with nature I think is better than pollution. A modern natural way. I think so far.  

However, it's what people do in the "natural state."  This is how primitive "back to the earth" tribes live.

It's also, to some extent, "living off the grid."  You can compost your waste and use solar...but if you use any fuel for cooking, then you're contributing to pollution far more than if you were using natural gas or electricity for a stove.  Hunt for food?  That strips resources.  Use up 2.5 acres-3 acres to grow crops?  That's area that could feed a deer plus a lot of other wildlife and destroys their habitat (unless you take over, say, a plot in the middle of a ghost town.)  Dam a stream or creek for water?  You've just changed the flow and access to water for everyone downstream.  Drill an aquifer?  Same.

Living and processing in large groups is more efficient.

Edited by Kenemet
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Piney
4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Living and processing in large groups is more efficient.

But it still requires building a working cycle.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
South Alabam
On 4/13/2019 at 10:22 PM, South Alabam said:

You know what is crazy? My Uncle Jim, who is 90 visited my mom and I at the end of March. He was talking about the old farm that my mom and him used to live on in the 30's. He talked about finding a gray stone along the fence line that was buried and about 2 feet high, maybe 16 inches wide and about 6 inches thick and covered in writing that he couldn't understand. Not just a stone, but apparently a carved stone. I was intrigued at what it could be and just thought about it, but didn't say anything. Less than 5 minutes later I found this thread and it was less than 24 hours old.

I called my Uncle Jim back here to my computer to show him this thread after telling him and my mom about it. He became really interested. He said there is a Museum nearby and though the land is now sold, knows the owners and would work with both if possible to find that stone.

I talked to my mom a few day later, and he is back home now and working on it.

It may be an old gravestone, who knows? He couldn't understand the writing. But like the Kensington stone, this stone is in Little Falls, Minnesota roughly 75 miles away. So what it turns out to be, well, I'll keep you updated as my Uncle works on it, but remember he's 90. http://kensingtonrunestone.us/

 

Edit to add: Oh yeah and it is still cold and snowy up there, so that will delay it for a while. I'm basking down here in South Alabama, which is why he came, to get a break from all that.

 

My Uncle Jim is still working on this. He went home and it was cold up there in Minnesota a lot longer than it was down here. So that delayed the start of the quest. Then about the time him and my Uncle Art were going to get ready to go look for it, my Aunt Elsie fell and broke her arm. That was a few weeks ago. Anyway, he has talked to a museum up there (Unsure which one yet, I'll see if I can find out) and they are very interested in this stone and going along too. They are now just waiting for wood tick season to end as this stone is probably no longer in clear land, but overgrown with shrubs etc.. anyway, he may be 90 but he is still interested and working on it. Just thought i'd update you all.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Captain Risky
28 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

My Uncle Jim is still working on this. He went home and it was cold up there in Minnesota a lot longer than it was down here. So that delayed the start of the quest. Then about the time him and my Uncle Art were going to get ready to go look for it, my Aunt Elsie fell and broke her arm. That was a few weeks ago. Anyway, he has talked to a museum up there (Unsure which one yet, I'll see if I can find out) and they are very interested in this stone and going along too. They are now just waiting for wood tick season to end as this stone is probably no longer in clear land, but overgrown with shrubs etc.. anyway, he may be 90 but he is still interested and working on it. Just thought i'd update you all.

Man thats excellent news and the follow through from your 90 year old uncle is outstanding. I hope you guy's find the stone and have an adventure along the way. Amazing synchronicity. Keep us all posted.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
quiXilver

Little Falls... sigh.  Memories of home.  Sometimes I miss The North Star State.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.