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Captain Risky

Native American legends about the Vikings

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Piney
3 minutes ago, Essan said:

  Was it because the inhabitants were too aggressive (and the Viking numbers relatively small in comparison)?   Or was there another reason? 

One was on our side, and as usual "White Man Saves the World" ala  Kevin Costner. :yes:

 

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Kenemet
22 minutes ago, Piney said:

Europeans were warring all over the continent over religion during the same time period. We were just warring over food in a limited fashion.

It was disease that got us. Not our "barbarity". 

No kidding.  That was the timeline of the Crusades (until I took a course on the Crusades, I was not aware of how many there were and how many times they actually went on crusade in Europe against other Christians. )  There was nothing similar in tribal/Federation history and the culture really wasn't going in a direction (at that time) that would have led to vast armies killing each other across the landscapes of North America.  And although all the cultures I can name in the Americas had warrior classes, none of them had professional armies.  That was an European thing.

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travelnjones
48 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Were there any native Americans with this disease before Columbus arrived?

The Vikings and Baron Dupuytren's disease

Dupuytren’s disease (DD) is an ancient affliction of unknown origin. It is defined by Dorland as shortening, thickening, and fibrosis of the palmar fascia producing a flexion deformity of a finger. Tradition has it that the disease originated with the Vikings, who spread it throughout Northern Europe and beyond as they traveled and intermarried. After being present for hundreds of years, DD was named in the 19th century after a famous French surgeon, who was not the first to describe it. This article reviews the history of DD and describes its incidence, clinical manifestations, and treatment.

Dupuytren's most often occurs in males over the age of 50.[2] It mostly affects white people and is rare among Asians and Africans.[7] In the United States about 5% of people are affected at some point in time, while in Norway about 30% of men over 60 years old have the condition....

wrong sort of disease, this is a non contagious thing that messes with your hand.  My Aunt, cousin and mom have/had it.  I do some finger stretches to try to avoid it.  and this is all it does if you got it.

 

image.jpeg.413c4b9dd6e6f6b97d9d19b820822e69.jpeg

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Piney
1 minute ago, Kenemet said:

No kidding.  That was the timeline of the Crusades (until I took a course on the Crusades, I was not aware of how many there were and how many times they actually went on crusade in Europe against other Christians. )  There was nothing similar in tribal/Federation history and the culture really wasn't going in a direction (at that time) that would have led to vast armies killing each other across the landscapes of North America.  And although all the cultures I can name in the Americas had warrior classes, none of them had professional armies.  That was an European thing.

If you ever want to discuss the Baltic Crusades and the Crusades against the Slavs. I'm all for it. I studied them for years. :yes: 

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Kenemet
9 minutes ago, Essan said:

Why the Vikings didn't establish bigger colonies in North America is an interesting question.  The "new" continent had everything they needed and were rapidly running out of in Iceland and Greenland, notably trees (the reason there are no woods in Greenland and Iceland today is not down to climate!).   Was it because the inhabitants were too aggressive (and the Viking numbers relatively small in comparison)?   Or was there another reason? 

I'm sure there are any number of reasons... but the aggressive inhabitants probably wasn't much of a factor.  In general, it was a long and difficult distance away (so no immediate support from the homeland) and there was not a great wealth of desperately needed resources there.  So no one was going to get extremely wealthy from acquiring resources in this area... and that meant it was easy to abandon.

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travelnjones

The end of the Medieval warm period and the beginning of the Little Ice Age made Greenland colony die off.   Taking that link of the chain out killed the outlying colonies.  Also There was some thought the Indians thought the vikings tried to poison them with milk, lactose intolerance.

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Piney
2 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

The end of the Medieval warm period and the beginning of the Little Ice Age made Greenland colony die off.   Taking that link of the chain out killed the outlying colonies.  Also There was some thought the Indians thought the vikings tried to poison them with milk, lactose intolerance.

That's a myth about lactose intolerance. We drank and cooked in doe milk. Many other tribes drank buffalo, sheep, mountain goat and Llama milk.

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Well you might consider that much of the American system of government was based on Indian systems of Confederacy and representation.  Iroquois among others had something to offer.

One of our big advantages over the Indians is that early on they did not understand that we did not just want to make a war but to totally obliterate them. 

That's not true, initially we were just there by accident, as we were out to prove the world was round by getting to India by sea and traveling west rather than the usual east route. Aristotle screwed up Columbus, as he wrote that there was only water between the pillars of Heracles and India, when traveling westerly from those pillars of contention. Although later on, seeing how the unjust among the later white men could take easily advantage of the just thinking natives, it did happen that we took everything and nearly wiped out the red race for the love of "gold"/money. Like Hitler with the Jews, his goal was their money, and only used the hate/racial/religion excuse to get at their wealth. Likewise in the Americas with the white man and the natives.

As far as the natives of the north, I do recall something of their union arguments and wishes, but apparently it was not sufficient, nor was it an ideal throughout the American continent(s) for the rest of the natives.

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Pettytalk
44 minutes ago, travelnjones said:

wrong sort of disease, this is a non contagious thing that messes with your hand.  My Aunt, cousin and mom have/had it.  I do some finger stretches to try to avoid it.  and this is all it does if you got it.

 

image.jpeg.413c4b9dd6e6f6b97d9d19b820822e69.jpeg

Everything is contagious, it's just the avenue of contagion that varies. But I was merely pointing out that the Vikings were not the healthy specimens someone had made out to be on this thread. A little humor goes a long way in curing any disease, no matter if it's transmitted directly, genetically, or on the internet. The Vikings were exposed and suffered from many of the same diseases that the Spaniards carried to America, but perhaps not as widespread, since they did not have the large communities as in other parts of Europe, which multiplied the cases and were more widespread than in the colder and less populated norther Europe parts of Viking lands. This disease effecting the fingers may be a result of these other disorders.

The cause is unknown.[4] Risk factors include family history, alcoholism, smoking, thyroid problems, liver disease, diabetes, previous hand trauma, and epilepsy.

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jaylemurph
2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Well you might consider that much of the American system of government was based on Indian systems of Confederacy and representation.  Iroquois among others had something to offer.

One of our big advantages over the Indians is that early on they did not understand that we did not just want to make a war but to totally obliterate them. 

Well, some. I'd argue there's a lot more Roman there, down to the name. And there was a history of the Germanic and Eastern tribes confederating (as it were) during the Age of Migrations and before -- the Teutons, Franks, Bavarii and Allemanni were all confederations of different tribes banded together for a common good. (And note the word to describe that is Latin and in use millennia before the New World was discovered.)

1 hour ago, Essan said:

Why the Vikings didn't establish bigger colonies in North America is an interesting question.  The "new" continent had everything they needed and were rapidly running out of in Iceland and Greenland, notably trees (the reason there are no woods in Greenland and Iceland today is not down to climate!).   Was it because the inhabitants were too aggressive (and the Viking numbers relatively small in comparison)?   Or was there another reason? 

It was really ****ing hard to get there. The Vikings weren't dopes; they knew that. Both the Greenland and the American colonies were set up by people who were exiles, or their families (cf. the Saga of the Greenlanders and the Saga of Eric the Red). I'd also question whether America -- in the form of the stark, sparse area in Quebec where they were -- had all that much to offer. Remember, names for the Vikings were a form of advertising (Greenland isn't very). Vinland was more aspirational than accurate.

Also, folks, Pettytalk is the worst kind of troll. It lowers the tone of the whole forum when you respond to his nonsense.

--Jaylemurph

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Piney
19 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Also, folks, Pettytalk is the worst kind of troll. It lowers the tone of the whole forum when you respond to his nonsense.

 

Been trying to avoid that. But the myth that we lost to the Whites because we were backwards savages fighting among ourselves had to be addressed.

At least we Native North Americans never fought over something as mundane as religion. 

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Piney
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

As far as the natives of the north, I do recall something of their union arguments and wishes, but apparently it was not sufficient, nor was it an ideal throughout the American continent(s) for the rest of the natives.

It's sufficient enough to still be intact and it was the exact model William Penn and Ben Franklin promoted. 

 

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

That's not true,

Did you know by the way that Europe is divided into tribal areas that have be going at petty squabbling for a couple of thousand years of recorded history?  They had their own languages and customs and were willing to fight to preserve them.  I think they call them countries now. 

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jaylemurph
2 hours ago, Piney said:

Been trying to avoid that. But the myth that we lost to the Whites because we were backwards savages fighting among ourselves had to be addressed.

At least we Native North Americans never fought over something as mundane as religion. 

Absolutely it had to be addressed. Always call out the bull****.

--Jaylemurph 

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Pettytalk
1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

Absolutely it had to be addressed. Always call out the bull****.

--Jaylemurph 

For a dork that tries to avert me, you sure call out my name a lot. To be classed as the best, or the worst of anything is better than being plain lukewarm, like you. So why am I troll, because I express my opinion, or try a little humor like others here? If I'm wrong correct me and not despise me, and spread rumors and dirtying name all over this place. People here are able to form their own opinions without having a genius like you telling them what they should think. And I'm calling out your Bull crap, as you are trolling my name. What now, we choose weapons at ten paces to settle the matter?

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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, Piney said:

One was on our side, and as usual "White Man Saves the World" ala  Kevin Costner. :yes:

WTF?.  Are they wearing Skyrim helmets?  But I must say, pretty cool if you can pick up a sword and learn to master it by yourself.  Must be Dragonborn.  Otherwise,  looks like a POS for gamer teens with a secret yearning to be bikers.

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Piney
5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

WTF?.  Are they wearing Skyrim helmets?  But I must say, pretty cool if you can pick up a sword and learn to master it by yourself.  Must be Dragonborn.  Otherwise,  looks like a POS for gamer teens with a secret yearning to be bikers.

It was a ripoff of a Saami movie about the Estonian Chud attacking Saami villages and defeated by a boy hunter. The original sucked too. 

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Tatetopa
1 minute ago, Piney said:

It was a ripoff of a Saami movie about the Estonian Chud attacking Saami villages and defeated by a boy hunter. The original sucked too. 

I saw that one. I do remember the skiing scene where the kid takes off one ski to go around a tree to prank his uncle . At least they were not dressed like  World of Warcraft orcs or something.

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jaylemurph
52 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

For a dork that tries to avert me, you sure call out my name a lot.

The word you're looking for is avoid.

--Jaylemurph

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Pettytalk
2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

The word you're looking for is avoid.

--Jaylemurph

You just cannot stay away from me, can you? Now you are going to tell me what I'm looking for? Avert fits in fine, as you were wanting others to turn away from me, by labeling me the worst troll around. Besides, averting has the same effect as avoiding. But perhaps you are right about my looking for a void, as I see that your mind is a very big void, since it's filled with so much illusion of grandiosity. I also see your usual fans approve of what they perceive as a put-down.

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Mellon Man
Posted (edited)
On 01/04/2019 at 1:43 AM, Tatetopa said:

Good, I must admit my references are scant.  Jared Diamond was certainly one, the Sagas though questionable another.  Some information on Viking slave trade in Dublin, a couple of articles on L'Anse Aux Meadows and newer possible settlement discoveries.

https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/power-and-aristocracy/slaves-and-thralls/

The thralls from Western Europe were mainly Franks, Anglo-Saxons, and Celts. Many Irish slaves were used in expeditions for the colonization of Iceland. TheNorse also took German, Baltic, Slavic and Latin slaves. The Vikings kept some slaves as servants and sold most captives in the Byzantine or Islamic markets.

 

Viking Sex Slaves – The Dirty Secret Behind The Founding Of Iceland

By Wyatt Redd

Published January 16, 2018

Updated December 18, 2018

Given the genetics of Iceland and the nature of the people who settled it, it’s possible that a large percentage of the first women on Iceland were taken there as slaves. (from Britain btw.)

https://core.tdar.org/collection/58150/captivity-and-slavery-in-viking-age-scandinavia

These people spoke similar languages and had similar technologies, so I think they could be counted in the Viking sphere of influence. 

"In most aspects, L'Anse aux Meadows resembles other early eleventh-century Norse sites in Iceland or Greenland; but its location and layout differ from all other such sites. Its situation on the most exposed bay in the area contrasts with the sheltered areas favoured for West Norse livestock farming. The usual large West Norse barns and byres are missing. Specific archaeological testing showed no sign of enclosures or shelters for livestock of any kind, or of disturbances in the flora caused by grazing and cultivation. Nor were remains of domestic animals found: all the identifiable bones being seal and whale. (A small scapula originally identified as domestic pig has now been identified as seal: A.S. Ingstad 1977: 45, 179, 266; Rick 1977; Spiess 1990.)

Erik sailed from Iceland to Greenland in the 980's with 25 ships and 500 settlers. 14 ships made it.  (about 60% maybe 300 people.?) Others followed.  Are you thinking there were a lot more people in Greeland around 1000AD?   You sure could be right.  I don't know when the next wave followed but a generation or so later, there were 400 farms and 2500 or so people.  Peak population in the 1100's onwards is argued between 2500 and 10,000. I don't know

The l"Anse aux Meadows  site seems to be sized for what - 60 to 150 people, about 3 ship's crews. It seemed to be occupied occasionally at least for 3-10 years.   There is evidence of a carpenter shop and a bloomery  so certainly ship repair or replacement was on their minds, At least one Norse marine historians says it is easier to build a new ship that to replace damaged strakes.  Evidence of nail fragments in fire pits supports the burning of at least some old strakes.

https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/nflds/article/view/140/236

According to this source, slag from the bloom iron furnace and forging slag was pretty limited, likely a single one time event (ship outfitting? maybe).

In any case, I don't want to die stupid or transmit false information, so when you have time, your references would be appreciated.

 

 

I am currently swamped in paper work with respect to an upcoming excavation, on the Isle of Man this summer. Hence my response will be in parts due to time constraints.

The Viking voyages to North America is a complex matter. In this post, I'll respond to your earlier post regarding Viking exchanges with the native population.

The Dorset culture populated parts of north-eastern Canada and possibly north-western parts of Greenland. While the Beothuk culture populated Newfoundland and the Innu culture Labrador (Kleingartner and Williams 2014: 43).

The Thule Inuit immigrated from Alaska to the eastern Arcitic between the 11th and 13th centuries AD (Sutherland 2008: 613).

These cultures most likely came into contact with 'Vikings'.

It has also been suggested that the 'Vikings' European diseases may have contributed to the demise of the Dorset people in northern Greenland (Gulløv 2000: 318-26).

The earliest accounts of Arctic natives is seen in the Historia Norwegiae. Which might have been copied from an original, dating to the mid 12th century AD (Sutherland 2008: 613). This account describes hostile exchanges between the Norse and the Skrælings, who used weapons and tools made out of stone and ivory (Jones 1986: 18). It would not be erroneous to suggest this could either be the Thule or Dorset people.

Some material culture exist which suggest trade with the Dorset people. A coin depicting king Olaf the Peacefull have been found at a site in Maine (Haywood 2000: 200). A fragment of a bronze vessel, most likely from before the 13th century has been found at a Dorset dwelling in the Thule District in north-western Greenland (Appelt et al. 1998). Smelted copper pecies have also been recovered from 2 Dorset villages, one on the east coast of Hudson Bay (Harp 1975) and the other on the south coast of Hudson Strait (Plumet 1982). These are interpreted as having 'Viking' orgin, however, some of the objects likely reached these locations through native trade routes.
Other objects which demonstrates knowlegde of European technologies have also been recovered from Dorset and Thule sites on Baffin Island and northern Labrador (Sabo and Sabo 1978) (Sutherland 2000b).

The location of Vinland still remains uncertain. One possibility is that Vinland was Newfoundland at L'Anse aux Meadows. However, if one is to go by the Vinland Sagas, the environment of Newfoundland is unlike the description given in the saga. The Grænlendiga Saga further describe maple trees, frost-free winters, rivers with salmon and midwinter days which were much longer than those in Greenland. If one is to follow these descriptions, it would place 'Vinland' south of the latitude 50° north. Which would be south of the mouth of the Gulf of St Lawrence (Haywood 2000: 199-200). One could speculate Novo Scotia or New England could be the location, given salmon are not found on the Atlantic cost of North America south of the Hudson River and wild grapes likely did not grow north of the Gulf of St Lawrence. However, these locations likely didn't have frost-free winters (Haywood 2000: 200). Hence, it would be reasonable to argue that there is a possibility the descriptions in the sagas were exaggerated. Just like the environment of Greenland was high likely exaggerated by 'Erik the Red' to attract settlers.

It can be suspected that 'Viking' settlement of North America took place in two relatively small areas. One is a recorded attempt to settle 'Vinland', however, unsuccessfully. (Kleingartner and Williams 2014: 43). It is unclear how the settlement at L'Anse aux Meadows relates to these attempts. However, there were indeed many journeys from Greenland to North America, these journeys were, however, mainly to fetch timber (Kleingartner and Williams 2014: 44).

In 1121 bishop Eirkr Gnupsson attempted to rediscover 'Vinland'. However, we have no evidence or recordings, to let us know if he was successful (Haywood 2000: 200).

Bibliography:

Appelt, M., Gulløv, H. C. and Kapel, H. 1998. The Gateway to Greenland: report of the field season 1996. In J. Arneborg and H. C. Gulløv (eds.) Man, Culture and Environment in Ancient Greenland. Copenhagen: Dansk Polar Center.

Gulløv, H. C. 2000. Natives and Norse in Greenland. In W. Fitzhugh, and E. I. Ward (eds.). Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga. Washington: Smithsonian Books. 318-26.

Harp, E. 1975. A late Dorset copper amulet from southeastern Hudson Bay. Folk, 16/17: 33-44.

Haywood, J. 2000. Encyclopaedia of the Viking Age. New York: Thames & Hudson. 199-200.

Jones, G. 1986. The Norse Atlantic Saga. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 18.

Kleingartner, S. and Williams, G. 2014. Contacts & Exchnage. In G. Williams., P. Peltz., and M. Wemhoff (eds.) Vikings: Life and legend. London: The British Musuem Press. 43-44.

Odessa. D., Loring, S., Fitzhugh, W. W. 2000. Skræling: first proppes og Helluland, Markland and Vinland. In W. Fitzhugh, and E. I. Ward (eds.). Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga. Washington: Smithsonian Books. 193-206.

Plumet, P. 1982. Les maisons longues dorsetiennes de l'ungava. Geoprahic Physique et Quaternaire, 36(3): 253-89.

Sabo, D. and Sabo, G. 1978. A possible Thule carving of a Viking from Baffin Island. Canadian Journal of Archaeology, 2: 33-42.

Schledermann, P. D. 2000. East meet West. In W. Fitzhugh, and E. I. Ward (eds.). Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga. Washington: Smithsonian Books. 189-92.

Sutherland, P. D. 2000a. The Norse and Native Americans. In W. Fitzhugh, and E. I. Ward (eds.). Vikings: The North Atlantic Saga. Washington: Smithsonian Books. 238-47.

Sutherland, P. D. 2000b. Strands of culture contact: Dorset-European interactions in the Candian eastern Artic. In M. Appelt, J. Berglund and H. C. Gulløv (eds.) Identities and Culture Contacts in the Artic. Copenhagen: National Musuem of Denmark and Danish Polar Centre.

Sutherland, P. D. 2008. Norse and natives in the eastern Artice. In S. Brink with N. Price (eds.). The Viking World. London and New York: Routhledge. 613-17.
 

Edited by Mellon Man
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
17 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

We do speak 60% Latin..... Besides, Danish, much like the German language, is too barbaric and harsh sounding for the style and finesse needed to express higher thoughts. A

Dansk er kun for de særligt indviede og du er åbenlyst ikke en af dem. :rolleyes:

 

Anyway the Vikings didn't speak Danish as that language didn't exist at the time.

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Mellon Man
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Dansk er kun for de særligt indviede og du er åbenlyst ikke en af dem. :rolleyes:

 

Anyway the Vikings didn't speak Danish as that language didn't exist at the time.

Jo, nogle gjorde. De snakkede bare old dansk. 

Modern Danish derives from this. 

* Hope my Danish is at an acceptable level. My daughter is half Danish. 

Edited by Mellon Man
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
Just now, Mellon Man said:

Jo, nogle gjorde. De snakkede bare old dansk. 

Modern Danish derives from this. 

Modern Danish is derived from many different sources. It may have its root in old Norse, but it also have a healthy dose of other languages, particularly German, and these days a lot of English aswell. 

As for Danish being barbaric and incapable of higher thought as @Pettytalk seems to think: There are 14 nobel laureates from Denmark. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Nobel_laureates_per_capita

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Mellon Man said:

* Hope my Danish is at an acceptable level. My daughter is half Danish. 

Your Danish is perfectly good. :tu:

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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