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Captain Risky

Native American legends about the Vikings

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Captain Risky
13 hours ago, Swede said:

The reference speaks for itself.

The proliferation of erroneous information is of no good service to anyone.

.

South Alabam and his uncle seem to think differently...

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MissJatti
On 31/03/2019 at 2:58 AM, Kenemet said:

I don't actually recall any Native American legends about Vikings.  I'm not the most knowledgeable here, but I don't recall any.

Everyone don't get to learn everything at school, and has time goes on, new discoveries are made. And when made, it will be decades before you hear about it either in school, tv, magazines, books, etc

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Piney
On 4/12/2019 at 7:35 PM, Captain Risky said:

Not Viking but there are some legends of white and blue eyed Indians. 

It's a gene that causes premature silver hair and eyes that change color. In the Mandan, it was "nicked" and became a dominant. not a recessive gene. It still originated in Central Asia though. 

 The Mormons, ran with the blond- blue story to promote their racist dreck and it was blown out of proportion from there. 

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Kenemet
5 hours ago, MissJatti said:

Everyone don't get to learn everything at school, and has time goes on, new discoveries are made. And when made, it will be decades before you hear about it either in school, tv, magazines, books, etc

You're making some assumptions about my sources that aren't true.  I generally accept information about Native Americans from Native Americans themselves, whether written or told to me or found in various sources.  While I got a good education at the many schools I attended, I don't accept this education as being complete; only as being a springboard for finding topics to learn more about.

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Kenemet
1 hour ago, Piney said:

It's a gene that causes premature silver hair and eyes that change color. In the Mandan, it was "nicked" and became a dominant. not a recessive gene. It still originated in Central Asia though. 

 The Mormons, ran with the blond- blue story to promote their racist dreck and it was blown out of proportion from there. 

Eye color does change with age, and as you (and everyone) develop cataracts (whether mild ones or severe ones.)

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Piney
8 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Eye color does change with age, and as you (and everyone) develop cataracts (whether mild ones or severe ones.)

Certain people have eyes that change color with mood. illness and sunlight. @jmccr8 and I both have them along with many Nanticoke, Lenape Finns and Irish. 

 

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jmccr8
Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Piney said:

Certain people have eyes that change color with mood. illness and sunlight. @jmccr8 and I both have them along with many Nanticoke, Lenape Finns and Irish. 

 

Hi Piney

True that my eyes go from hazel to green when I am in certain moods like fighting mad or spring heat.:lol: My dads would go from blue to smokey grey when he looked at me.:innocent:

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
added context
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South Alabam
7 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

South Alabam and his uncle seem to think differently...

My mom told me today that My Uncle Jim has my Uncle Art who is a few years younger working on it too. They both recall seeing the stone, however my mother never saw it because she was much younger than them at the time.

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RoofGardener

Umm.. isn't it a historical fact that no "native american/Canadian" tribe has EVER shown ANY historical evidence of a viking incursion ? 

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Tatetopa
On 4/12/2019 at 7:16 PM, Captain Risky said:

 whats jinke? 

jinkies. Interjection. Indication of surprise or amazement. 2004:, Scooby-Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed - "Jinkies

Velma's catch phrase from Scooby Doo, a show I watched way too many times when my son was 3-6 years old.

The other lasting contribution to American culture was the villians comment after being revealed;  " I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you darn kids."

Sorry Captain, just another hidden cost of growing up in the outback.  You missed some classic American kid's TV.

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Piney
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. isn't it a historical fact that no "native american/Canadian" tribe has EVER shown ANY historical evidence of a viking incursion ? 

Just a Inuit account of wiping out a group in Greenland. 

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jaylemurph
7 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

South Alabam and his uncle seem to think differently...

It's a mighty healthy leap from "writing my uncle didn't understand" to "ancient monument." 

Or perhaps more accurately, "possible carving that might be written language my uncle didn't understand as he remembers the event multiple decades later."

But it might be, so I hope SA keeps us informed. 

--Jaylemurph 

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Piney
14 hours ago, South Alabam said:

 But like the Kensington stone, this stone is in Little Falls, Minnesota roughly 75 miles away. So what it turns out to be, well, I'll keep you updated as my Uncle works on it, but remember he's 90. http://kensingtonrunestone.us/

 

The Kensington Runestone is a fraud.

http://www.badarchaeology.com/out-of-place-artefacts/petroglyphs-inscriptions-and-reliefs/the-kensington-runestone/

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South Alabam
33 minutes ago, Piney said:

According to this it isn't: http://kensingtonrunestone.us/

They are finding runes on the stone that the supposed faker could not have possibly known about as they were discovered after his death from centuries old writings. I'm not arguing with you, or against the stone by the way, just showing their link and what is on it. But whenever my Uncles find it, I'll keep you updated. My mother said that Little Falls is Norwegian, Swedes, Polish and Germans. So if it is a rune stone it would make no sense for someone to fake it and leave it lost.

 

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Piney
1 hour ago, South Alabam said:

According to this it isn't: http://kensingtonrunestone.us/

They are finding runes on the stone that the supposed faker could not have possibly known about as they were discovered after his death from centuries old writings. I'm not arguing with you, or against the stone by the way, just showing their link and what is on it. But whenever my Uncles find it, I'll keep you updated. My mother said that Little Falls is Norwegian, Swedes, Polish and Germans. So if it is a rune stone it would make no sense for someone to fake it and leave it lost.

 

The website has a lot of outright false info. The Runestone was a product of the great "who was here first race" when the "vast wilderness" myth was still being promoted. If there was vikings here at that time they would of found bustling hamlets and villages and a continent wide trade network. They would not of been in a wilderness, camping. Nor attacked as described in it.  

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Swede
11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

South Alabam and his uncle seem to think differently...

Time will tell.

.

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Swede
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, South Alabam said:

According to this it isn't: http://kensingtonrunestone.us/

They are finding runes on the stone that the supposed faker could not have possibly known about as they were discovered after his death from centuries old writings. I'm not arguing with you, or against the stone by the way, just showing their link and what is on it. But whenever my Uncles find it, I'll keep you updated. My mother said that Little Falls is Norwegian, Swedes, Polish and Germans. So if it is a rune stone it would make no sense for someone to fake it and leave it lost.

 

1) Please do. It will be interesting to trace down the artifact.

.2) No, that is all part of the set-up. During, and primarily prior to this period, "salting" a site or area so that it could be "discovered" was a sadly common practice.

Edit: Addition.

Edited by Swede
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Kenemet
9 hours ago, South Alabam said:

According to this it isn't: http://kensingtonrunestone.us/

They are finding runes on the stone that the supposed faker could not have possibly known about as they were discovered after his death from centuries old writings. I'm not arguing with you, or against the stone by the way, just showing their link and what is on it. But whenever my Uncles find it, I'll keep you updated. My mother said that Little Falls is Norwegian, Swedes, Polish and Germans. So if it is a rune stone it would make no sense for someone to fake it and leave it lost.

 

No, it's actually what's called a pious fraud.

Think about it logically:  You're a bunch of travelers (perhaps traders or hunters) come to a new land to explore.  So you go off and hunt and fish and come back to your fishing camp and find your people killed and you're a day away from your boats.

All well and good... except...

  • Your illiterate society just happens to have an explorer with you who is literate and Christian... in fact, he's VERY literate.  Literate enough to be a priest or scribe who records civil records and more.
  • You come back from fishing.  Your people are lying dead, so you stop and bury them 
  • AND THEN... Instead of going away quickly from this spot where an attack occurred or going to hunt your enemies (not a good tactical idea, by the way), you set up there in your camp AND wait...
  • ...while the stonemason who just happened to be along with you and who just happened to bring his tools along on a fishing trip goes to select and cut (squared off edges) a 200 lb rock for a memorial.
  • AND THEN WHILE YOUR ENEMIES ARE STILL AROUND, you wait several more days while the person who writes and the stonemason carefully carve this inscription on the tombstone-like slab.  Because the letters are carefully carved and not hastily scratched.  
  • BUT while composing your memorial, the names of the men aren't listed (contrary to every other runestone in existence.} 
  • Nor do you mention the leaders of the expedition, contrary to every other runestone in existence. (examples of inscriptions on real runestones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone#Expeditions_in_the_East)
  • You invoke the Virgin Mary, unlike any other runestone ever found.  Runes are not used to write any Biblical material (no prayers, no invocations, no religious labels.  They used the Roman alphabet)
  • And you just happen to know what year it is.  

And the language is wrong, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone#Lexical_evidence

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Captain Risky
13 hours ago, South Alabam said:

My mom told me today that My Uncle Jim has my Uncle Art who is a few years younger working on it too. They both recall seeing the stone, however my mother never saw it because she was much younger than them at the time.

Man I hope they find something really interesting. Do keep us posted. 

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Kenemet

And then there's the part of the inscription about "Virgin Mary."

It reads "Hail Virgin Mary. Save from evil. " - a phrase that suggests the piece was composed by a Protestant; not a Catholic (also, if they had time to actually carve up the stone and carve neat inscriptions, why are they suddenly being sparing with their sentences?)

In addressing the Virgin Mary, Catholics frequently use a devotional title (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary#Devotional_titles) ; such as "Holy Mary, Mother of God" or "Mother of the Word Incarnate" or "holy Queen, mother of mercy".  These titles are almost always situational, reflecting the need of the petitioner.  "Blessed Virgin Mary" is another title often seen in prayers.

You can see the more popular/common Marian prayers here: https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31

 

(see "titles of Mary" at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary}

NB:  this is not conclusive evidence, however I find the form of address to be unusual and worth noting and suggestive of a Protestant author.

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jaylemurph
1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

And then there's the part of the inscription about "Virgin Mary."

It reads "Hail Virgin Mary. Save from evil. " - a phrase that suggests the piece was composed by a Protestant; not a Catholic (also, if they had time to actually carve up the stone and carve neat inscriptions, why are they suddenly being sparing with their sentences?)

In addressing the Virgin Mary, Catholics frequently use a devotional title (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary#Devotional_titles) ; such as "Holy Mary, Mother of God" or "Mother of the Word Incarnate" or "holy Queen, mother of mercy".  These titles are almost always situational, reflecting the need of the petitioner.  "Blessed Virgin Mary" is another title often seen in prayers.

You can see the more popular/common Marian prayers here: https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?s=31

 

(see "titles of Mary" at Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary}

NB:  this is not conclusive evidence, however I find the form of address to be unusual and worth noting and suggestive of a Protestant author.

Perhaps more to the point, the cult of Mary wasn't really established until the 12th or 13th Century, well after the Vikings were done raiding. Her veneration was a political tool used to foster unity in a not very united catholic church, and it inky had the power to do that after the high middle ages.

Actual vikings weren't Christian -- that the stone mentions christianity is more of a tell it's a pious fraud, well intentioned (maybe) but none to clear on actual, period history.

--Jaylemurph 

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South Alabam
19 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Man I hope they find something really interesting. Do keep us posted. 

I will. I just wonder what it is.

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Captain Risky
On 4/15/2019 at 2:28 PM, Kenemet said:

No, it's actually what's called a pious fraud.

Think about it logically:  You're a bunch of travelers (perhaps traders or hunters) come to a new land to explore.  So you go off and hunt and fish and come back to your fishing camp and find your people killed and you're a day away from your boats.

All well and good... except...

  • Your illiterate society just happens to have an explorer with you who is literate and Christian... in fact, he's VERY literate.  Literate enough to be a priest or scribe who records civil records and more.
  • You come back from fishing.  Your people are lying dead, so you stop and bury them 
  • AND THEN... Instead of going away quickly from this spot where an attack occurred or going to hunt your enemies (not a good tactical idea, by the way), you set up there in your camp AND wait...
  • ...while the stonemason who just happened to be along with you and who just happened to bring his tools along on a fishing trip goes to select and cut (squared off edges) a 200 lb rock for a memorial.
  • AND THEN WHILE YOUR ENEMIES ARE STILL AROUND, you wait several more days while the person who writes and the stonemason carefully carve this inscription on the tombstone-like slab.  Because the letters are carefully carved and not hastily scratched.  
  • BUT while composing your memorial, the names of the men aren't listed (contrary to every other runestone in existence.} 
  • Nor do you mention the leaders of the expedition, contrary to every other runestone in existence. (examples of inscriptions on real runestones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runestone#Expeditions_in_the_East)
  • You invoke the Virgin Mary, unlike any other runestone ever found.  Runes are not used to write any Biblical material (no prayers, no invocations, no religious labels.  They used the Roman alphabet)
  • And you just happen to know what year it is.  

And the language is wrong, by the way: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_Runestone#Lexical_evidence

Pious fraud? nothing of the sort. Vikings were in contact with Western Europe and Byzantium by the 8th century. many of the Eastern Vikings in Russia became mercenaries for Byzantines and thus converted to Christianity. Vikings travelled from one end of Europe to the other and raided the Mediterranean basin, England, France and Ireland and captured many slaves (including educated monks) that more than likely accompanied them on their voyages and what not. 

you're just generalising that because Scandinavia didn't accept Christianity on mass until the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, so therefore the Vikings loathed and wanted nothing to do with Christianity and no use for writing and reading. 

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Kenemet
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Pious fraud? nothing of the sort. Vikings were in contact with Western Europe and Byzantium by the 8th century. many of the Eastern Vikings in Russia became mercenaries for Byzantines and thus converted to Christianity. Vikings travelled from one end of Europe to the other and raided the Mediterranean basin, England, France and Ireland and captured many slaves (including educated monks) that more than likely accompanied them on their voyages and what not. 

you're just generalising that because Scandinavia didn't accept Christianity on mass until the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries, so therefore the Vikings loathed and wanted nothing to do with Christianity and no use for writing and reading. 

I think that you might not understand the term, "pious fraud."  It means a piece of fabricated history that was constructed to promote and support a religious narrative.  In this case, the primary suspect would be a Mormon.

No, I'm not generalizing because the Vikings were late to convert to Christianity (and having taught a seminar on the Vikings, I'm well aware of their trade routes and the great extent of them.)  I'm stating that it's false because the narrative on the stone is contrary to every practice the Vikings had and because the story doesn't make logical sense.   The language is also wrong (as experts have repeatedly said.)

Edited by Kenemet
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Captain Risky
5 hours ago, Kenemet said:

I think that you might not understand the term, "pious fraud."  It means a piece of fabricated history that was constructed to promote and support a religious narrative.  In this case, the primary suspect would be a Mormon.

No, I'm not generalizing because the Vikings were late to convert to Christianity (and having taught a seminar on the Vikings, I'm well aware of their trade routes and the great extent of them.)  I'm stating that it's false because the narrative on the stone is contrary to every practice the Vikings had and because the story doesn't make logical sense.   The language is also wrong (as experts have repeatedly said.)

You can’t claim pious fraud because the pieces don’t add up the way you expect them to.  I outlined that it is possible that a Viking or someone part of their group could have been more than capable of writing the message. 

Is this not what you said?

  • Your illiterate society just happens to have an explorer with you who is literate and Christian... in fact, he's VERY literate.  Literate enough to be a priest or scribe who records civil records and more.

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