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trevor borocz johnson

Revelations talks about climate change

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and then
On 4/12/2019 at 1:24 PM, Podo said:

As an amusing anecdote, there's a crazy guy in my city that constantly has various end-of-world signs. This is the only good photo I could find online. He's wack, but his signs can be amusing:

Yeah, that IS funny :)   The thing to remember is that people who call themselves Christians are as diverse as any other group of people.  Some truly believe and try to follow Christ's steps.  Some just take the name and go to church.  Humans are an imperfect lot and Christians are certainly no different.  When you meet one who acts as though he is, then he isn't very familiar with Christ's message.  

Your point about doomsayers and predictions of the end is accurate as well.  Those who set dates are particularly in error and do real damage to those who want to spread the gospel.  The Bible is PERFECTLY clear on the time of the end of the age:

 But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. 

You can't be more clear than that yet so many through the years have decided it doesn't mean what it says.  What Christ followers were commanded to do was to be aware of the "season" of His return.  He gave a list of events that we'd see as the time approached and said they'd happen all at the same time.  To me, one of the most powerful signs was predicted by Ezekiel, about 2600 years ago.  He was writing about the nation of Israel in the "last days"   He described a people who had returned to the land from all corners of the earth and who had prospered there.  He goes on to tell the fate of the enemies of Israel that decide to come against Her to "take a spoil".  

It's fascinating reading because it has never happened in history and the nations that he lists as the "coalition" that will come down on Israel like a storm, are Turkey, Iran, several of the North African Muslim nations and a mysterious leader called "Gog of Magog".  Most scholars think this is Russia.  Currently, Russia is cozying up to Iran and Turkey and all three have forces in Syria.  

My overall belief about the book of Revelation is that it describes the final chapter of the human struggle for dominance on the planet.  Yes, some parts of it are hard to read and when God sends plagues against the earth it can seem hateful.  But most of the death and destruction of that time will be created by men.  Christ also says that when He returns, if he had delayed any longer, "no flesh would be saved alive" 

So, if you see reports of a coalition of those nations forming up to come against Israel, just remember, it was predicted 2600 years ago.  The other major sign that I think is on the near horizon is the signing of a peace treaty between Israel and "many" that is, multiple other nations.  The key to knowing it is the final treaty that sets things in motion is that it will be implemented over a 7-year time frame.

 

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and then
5 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

Ad hominem.

:)  Seriously?  Dude, I was just stating what I believed.  I'm capable of some biting ad hominem when properly motivated but I usually don't begin such action, only respond to it.  If you took offense because I made the assumption that you don't believe in God then okay, I apologize.  

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and then
 
 
 
3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Which is where begins to grow and learn.

If you already have an answer "God did it", then one doesn't need to look for the real answers, yeah?

I always wonder why theists equate the fact that we have gaps in our knowledge as proof of god.

Some may, I didn't.  I don't feel the need to prove He exists or to convince anyone against their will to believe what I believe.  That isn't my responsibility.  Here's the essence of what I believe is coming in this generation.  We're going to see events transpire that will clearly fit scriptural predictions from long ago.  The Ezekiel war in Israel, for example.  Russia, Iran, Turkey and a coalition of other Muslim nations come against Israel and are decimated in a way that can only be described as supernatural.  5/6 of the forces will die and the nations that sent them will be devastated by fire from the heavens. 

That prediction is very clear in its detail of who, what and where.  If we see those things happen and people who are made aware of the predictions still scoff or dismiss it then they've made a choice.  We all have to make a choice about what we believe.  

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and then
23 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

That finger can be pointed at theists more often than not.

 

Or are you saying that before a discussion is possible, you already have to believe?

No, I'm saying that to discuss God and the events revealed in the book of Revelation, one needs to begin from a perspective of belief, else, what is there to discuss?  These threads always turn into lists of proofs and facts about why believers are at best, deluded, at worst, mentally ill.  What I'm saying is that if you reject the reality of a Creator God then what point is there in attempting to discuss His actions and plans for the future?  

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Jodie.Lynne
12 minutes ago, and then said:

What I'm saying is that if you reject the reality of a Creator God

I'm not looking for a fight, and I hate to fulfill your prediction about proofs & evidences, but this, right here, is the heart of the issue.

"the reality" of a creator god. You believe this, so to you this is a fact, incontrovertible. 

But what, exactly, makes you so positive that your belief is true? I mean, you must have some evidence for your belief, yeah? And if you say "because the bible', then any written document is sufficient for belief in anything, no?

Like alien abduction fans, or adherents of a flat earth, or atlantis devotees, they also 'know' their beliefs are true and cannot be easily swayed, if at all.

And I'm sure that, apart from atheism, there is some belief system, or thing that you shake your head at, wondering 'how can they possibly think THAT is true?'

 

 

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GoldenWolf
39 minutes ago, and then said:

:)  Seriously?  Dude, I was just stating what I believed.  I'm capable of some biting ad hominem when properly motivated but I usually don't begin such action, only respond to it.  If you took offense because I made the assumption that you don't believe in God then okay, I apologize.  

I just think it is dumb how how the religious do that everytime they can't answer a question.

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Golden Duck
7 hours ago, Horta said:

So, because our pride doesn't doesn't harm him at all, only us, that's why he is going to do his 100 pound hailstones routine?

Who actually proposed this statement?

7 hours ago, Horta said:

lol...That makes sense. He sounds quite compassionate. It's time this god was put out on his all powerful ****, we need a trade in lol. 

 

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and then
4 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

But what, exactly, makes you so positive that your belief is true?

Jodie.Lynne, I have no proof.  I can't list a single fact or figure that would ever convince a non-believer to change their mind.  I don't want a fight either, sincerely.  That's why I typically ignore these threads.  It always seems to become a situation where believers are asked to prove that what they believe is rational and measurable. Faith ISN'T either of those things. The closest I can come to evidence would be to mention events that have been predicted and that give every appearance today of beginning to happen.  Christ told His disciples that He was telling them about future events so that when they saw them, they would remember, and believe.  That's all prophecy really is to me.  It's the closest thing to proof that a Christian will have until Christ actually returns or we meet Him after we pass from this world. 

I guess what makes me so positive that my faith is true is that I have considered many times what I would do if someone, someday made me choose to deny Christ and live or refuse to do that and be killed.  I have absolutely no doubt how I would choose.  That's not to say I probably wouldn't be petrified in fear of the pain and imminent end to my physical life.  ALL humans have such defenses.  But I believe the end of our physical existence here is the beginning of something FAR greater.  An "evolution" if you will.  That's the best I can do to explain.

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XenoFish

You are going on faith and for some reason wish strongly that what you believe will be true. It's nothing more than confirmation bias and belief perseverance.

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, and then said:

I guess what makes me so positive that my faith is true is that I have considered many times what I would do if someone, someday made me choose to deny Christ and live or refuse to do that and be killed. 

So anyone who believes something, with all their heart, is correct and true?

12 minutes ago, and then said:

The closest I can come to evidence would be to mention events that have been predicted and that give every appearance today of beginning to happen. 

Please state any predictions that have come true, in your opinion.

Let me pose a question. Is it possible for someone to know of a prediction of an event, and then work to make that prediction come to fruition? 

For example, let us say that there was a biblical prediction about the creation of a man-made floating island nation. You and I know of this prediction, and then work towards creating the floating island.  Is it a true prophecy?

 

To me, the so-called predictions of the bible are so open-ended and vague as to be meaningless; they can (and have) been applied to events throughout history. To me, for a prophecy to be valid, it should have, for want of a better term, an expiration date. If one were to predict "there will be a war", well, that prophecy would be fulfilled by any number of armed conflicts, yes?

 

 

Quote

But I believe the end of our physical existence here is the beginning of something FAR greater.  An "evolution" if you will. 

And this bit actually disturbs and frightens me. Not because I believe your god will rain down destruction on the world, but because it seems like so many theists consider this life to be nothing more than a weigh station on the way to 'something better'.  Let me ask, not putting words in your mouth, but if the afterlife is so much better, then why would anyone work to make this a better world?

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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XenoFish

The problem with predictions is they tend to become self fulfilling prophecies.

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Will Due
5 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So anyone who believes something, with all their heart, is correct and true?

Please state any predictions that have come true, in your opinion.

Let me pose a question. Is it possible for someone to know of a prediction of an event, and then work to make that prediction come to fruition? 

For example, let us say that there was a biblical prediction about the creation of a man-made floating island nation. You and I know of this prediction, and then work towards creating the floating island.  Is it a true prophecy?

 

To me, the so-called predictions of the bible are so open-ended and vague as to be meaningless; they can (and have) been applied to events throughout history. To me, for a prophecy to be valid, it should have, for want of a better term, an expiration date. If one were to predict "there will be a war", well, that prophecy would be fulfilled by any number of armed conflicts, yes?

 

Jesus said the Temple would be demolished by the Romans because of the Jews rebelling against they're rule over them. He told his followers to look for the signs that signified that this was about to occur. He told them this so that they would not die but survive.

This prediction did turn out pretty much like he said it would. Didn't it?

Now I'll go. :lol:

 

 

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Horta
3 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Who actually proposed this statement?

 

No one.

I inferred it both from the comments of @and then (it will happen because we are too "proud") and also the quoting of ezekiel by @South Alabam (it will happen, but not because of climate change) who both agreed that these hailstones are possible, if not a certainty. I'm open that the the error could be my interpretation though. If they clarify it, I'll have no problem with being wrong.

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and then
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So anyone who believes something, with all their heart, is correct and true?

See, this is what I'm talking about.  These discussions are like interrogations for evidence even when I've already clearly shown the white flag and said I have none.  In the past, I've attempted to explain events that I felt were prophetic and had been fulfilled and skeptics never, ever, under any circumstance accept it as evidence.   I get that this is what you believe and what you're about.  No harm, no foul, no hard feelings but I simply won't go there any longer.  It's a waste of time and frankly, it smacks of a need or desire to disprove a person's faith, even to THEM.  That's the other part of these discussions that finally caused me to rarely interact.  When someone is as clear as they can be that they have no acceptable evidence, yet it doesn't change their belief, what drives skeptics to attempt to establish, in detail, the reasons they feel the believer is in error?  I appreciate your zeal and honesty but my faith is my own and nothing anyone ever says will change that.  You're free to make whatever evaluation of me you choose to.  That's not my business. :) 

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Horta
10 hours ago, and then said:

If a person actually believes a Creator exists, then grasping the idea that He might know more than His creation isn't much of a stretch, is it?   Obviously, the attempt at discussion isn't possible if one starts from a point of disbelief. 

Your statement above is accurate and it reflects what humanity has always done.  Unfortunately, we've never been able to get beyond the desire to hate and subjugate the weaker of our species.  After thousands of years, we have created a knowledge base and a level of technology that exceeds anything in our history.  It has led to wonderful applications for life-saving and created opportunities for peaceful coexistence in many cases but our base nature does not change.  There is no reason to assume mankind will have some moment of enlightenment that will cure that nature so we face wars in the future with weapons that would literally end us if we're left to our own devices.

I don't believe in a creator. Though I agree with the rest, at least to some extent. Shortage of natural resources (especially food and water) will very likely lead to further conflict and possibly a new class of refugee (climate refugees).

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Sir Wearer of Hats
On 4/11/2019 at 7:24 AM, spud the mackem said:

Its raining Cats and Dogs LOL

poodles are forming everywhere!

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Jodie.Lynne
6 hours ago, and then said:

You're free to make whatever evaluation of me you choose to. 

I'm not evaluating you, I'm trying to get a handle on belief. If you thought I was trying to dissuade you, or ridicule you, that was not my intent.

You basically said (paraphrasing) that the bible is what makes you believe because it has prophecies that have been fulfilled. I asked for examples, you declined.

My point was that, to you the bible is your proof, and you believe it.

My statement was an attempt to reconcile your belief with that of someone else who has a different belief, but is as confident as you that their belief is true. Even if the two belief systems are contrary to each other.

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Rlyeh
17 hours ago, and then said:

If a person actually believes a Creator exists, then grasping the idea that He might know more than His creation isn't much of a stretch, is it?  

According to Genesis he doesn't.

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South Alabam
16 hours ago, and then said:

See, this is what I'm talking about.  These discussions are like interrogations for evidence even when I've already clearly shown the white flag and said I have none.  In the past, I've attempted to explain events that I felt were prophetic and had been fulfilled and skeptics never, ever, under any circumstance accept it as evidence.   I get that this is what you believe and what you're about.  No harm, no foul, no hard feelings but I simply won't go there any longer.  It's a waste of time and frankly, it smacks of a need or desire to disprove a person's faith, even to THEM.  That's the other part of these discussions that finally caused me to rarely interact.  When someone is as clear as they can be that they have no acceptable evidence, yet it doesn't change their belief, what drives skeptics to attempt to establish, in detail, the reasons they feel the believer is in error?  I appreciate your zeal and honesty but my faith is my own and nothing anyone ever says will change that.  You're free to make whatever evaluation of me you choose to.  That's not my business. :) 

It doesn't matter what all the wise men of the earth and this forum think. Using the original language of the Bible, Hebrew, and not any other language it has been translated into, that they have found that many passages of the Bible in the original language can be translated another way. One that caught my eye was the one where he slew all the first born of the Egyptians. It was translated to read, "I didn't slay a single one." You do all that with other scriptures where people believe God is deemed as murderous, then the truth lies in other ways that it can be translated which takes us back to what Moses wrote: Deuteronomy 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Of course, many will not believe what I have written here, so too bad. I won't expound or prove what I said with a link, because they believe that men wrote the Bible and they are right. 2Peter 1:21  For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Using any language of translations you can prove the Bible is wrong in evolution, contradictions, etc, etc, etc. Hebrew? I doubt it.

 

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, South Alabam said:

One that caught my eye was the one where he slew all the first born of the Egyptians. It was translated to read, "I didn't slay a single one."

You really need to cite your source for this please. I have many Jewish friends who would disagree with your version of the texts of the Christian OT, which is actually the 5 books of Moses in the Jewish faith.

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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South Alabam
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

You really need to cite your source for this please. I have many Jewish friends who would disagree with your version of the texts of the Christian OT, which is actually the 5 books of Moses in the Jewish faith.

I already said I wouldn't provide a link. If they choose not to believe, they will come the last day.

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Jodie.Lynne
8 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

I already said I wouldn't provide a link. If they choose not to believe, they will come the last day.

Then we can just ignore your outrageous and nonsensical claims. :)

If you actually took the time to look around these forums, you would see that what I am requesting is not out of the ordinary.

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South Alabam
22 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Then we can just ignore your outrageous and nonsensical claims. :)

If you actually took the time to look around these forums, you would see that what I am requesting is not out of the ordinary.

I found that link 10 or 12 years ago, that is why I said I would not provide a link. It may not exist and I am not going to provide it or look for it.

But for nonsense ask your Jewish friends what God Almighty's name is. If they say Jehovah or Yahweh are they right?

Exodus 6:3  And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

 

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Jodie.Lynne
9 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

I found that link 10 or 12 years ago, that is why I said I would not provide a link. It may not exist and I am not going to provide it or look for it.

But for nonsense ask your Jewish friends what God Almighty's name is. If they say Jehovah or Yahweh are they right?

Exodus 6:3  And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

 

Actually, cupcake, it is YHWH, and it is not supposed to be spoken lightly. 

 

Here is a general rule for debating, if you make a claim, it should be supported. And since I highly doubt that you are fluent in Hebrew, I would strongly suggest that you either retract your wild assertion, or provide source material. For example, your quoting of Exodus, what version of the bible are you quoting? Or are you translating from the Torah?

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South Alabam
58 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Actually, cupcake, it is YHWH, and it is not supposed to be spoken lightly. 

 

Here is a general rule for debating, if you make a claim, it should be supported. And since I highly doubt that you are fluent in Hebrew, I would strongly suggest that you either retract your wild assertion, or provide source material. For example, your quoting of Exodus, what version of the bible are you quoting? Or are you translating from the Torah?

(Genesis 1:1)

1) Peshat   "In the beginning G‑d created the Heaven and Earth."

2) Remez  "b'Rosh Hashanah nivra ha'olam" (on Rosh Hashanah the world was created)!"

3) Drush (or Midrash) "In the beginning" is bereshit. The midrash tells us that this word can be split into two words—b reshit. The Torah is telling us that the world was created for two ("b") "reshit"s ("firsts")—the Jews and the Torah."

4) Sod  the word bereshit can also be split into "bara shis" (created [with] six). This is because the world was created through G‑d's six emotional powers: kindness, severity, beauty, victory, splendor and foundation.

Within these four methods of understanding Torah, there exist countless possible avenues of understanding.

G‑d gave us the tools to delve into the words of Torah and reveal the divine wisdom hidden therein.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/819698/jewish/How-Is-the-Torah-Interpreted.htm

I used the KJV for citing Exodus

Here is the Torah version

Exodus 6:3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob with [the name] Almighty God, but [with] My name YHWH, I did not become known to them.

Does this not backup what I originally claimed? Is my outrageous and nonsensical claim staring you in the face?

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