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onlookerofmayhem

Atheist vs. Agnostic Label

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Will Due
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Will, we are considering what facts support the data/ claims. 

The facts determine the conclusion.

 

Yes but which facts determine the conclusion?

The ones a person has taken the time to gather? Of course right?

But what about the facts a person hasn't gathered for consideration? At what point does one decide that one has gathered enough evidence to really be in a position of truly knowing?

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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Sherapy
5 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

I got you j, but what I'm claiming is that there is data. For example, the many religions that exist with their traditions and their scriptures. That's data isn't it?

What you're claiming is that the existing data in the example I just stated, isn't enough for you to support claiming God exists. Am I right so far?

But there is data. And also, there's everyone's decision about it. Which may be right or wrong.

My claim is that eventhough some of us claim there's insufficient data, we are nonetheless forced to make a bonafide free will decision. Based on the data that exists.

Whether or not being forced to decide means we don't really have free will, is just another decision we're being forced to make.

 

 

You are trying to argue semantics, definitions as of they are the thing as opposed to a representation of a thing. 

This is indicative of where you are in understanding argumentation. 

In the strictest sense there isn’t data look up what data means about god, but there are beliefs. 

Big difference. 

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Will Due
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You are trying to argue semantics, definitions as of they are the thing as opposed to a representation of a thing. 

This is indicative of where you are in understanding argumentation. 

In the strictest sense there isn’t data look up what data means about god, but there are beliefs. 

Big difference. 

 

Semantics? Sure.

  • Life itself. Where did it come from?
  • Religious tradition, history and script.
  • People's anecdotes regarding spiritual or unexplained experiences. 
  • Nature and its beauty.
  • Science and its discoveries. 
  • Cause and effect.
  • Karma
  • Suffering, pain and healing.
  • Joy and satisfaction.
  • Love and relationship. 

All of these things are data regarding God's existence are they not? 

You're not going to argue about that are you?

 

 

Edited by Will Due

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XenoFish

Who would of thought belief would be so complicated? 

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Sherapy
6 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes but which facts determine the conclusion?

The ones a person has taken the time to gather? Of course right?

But what about the facts a person hasn't gathered for consideration? At what point does one decide that one has gathered enough evidence to really be in a position of truly knowing?

 

 

How many of your arguments on UM for god have held up? 

Would it be fair to say none?

Good question: how much have you invested in both sides of the debate? 

 

 

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Will Due
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

How many of your arguments on UM for god have held up? 

Would it be fair to say none?

Good question: how much have you invested in both sides of the debate? 

 

 

 

Lol.

How much of the existent data that indicates God exists have you taken the time to gather up for your consideration?

Would it be fair to say not a lot?

 

 

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jmccr8
Posted (edited)

Hi Will,

Not really sure how you see this list but let's have a walk through it.

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Life itself. Where did it come from?

What some of us accept is that it was due to a unique set of conditions that allowed it to happen as is seen through the discoveries of several branches of science.

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Religious tradition and script.

Of which there are many which do not agree with each other, if god is a constant then god would be seen the same way across the board.

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

People's anecdotes regarding spiritual or unexplained experiences. 

Okay and that is personal non-transferable experience and not objective

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Nature and its beauty.

Yes, there is beauty in nature how does that prove there is a god?

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Science and its discoveries.

Science works with what can be measured, how big is god, holds hands apart like a fisherman this big, moves hands some more this big then stretches them as far as I can reach this big? Science is not about proving god it is about understanding the environment that we exist in.

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Cause and effect.

If there is a cause and effect it is because they exist in the same physical environment and can be measured.

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Suffering, pain and healing

Care to expand on what you mean by this?

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Joy and satisfaction.

Physical sensation dependant on having a physical form much like pain and suffering.

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Love and relationship. 

Are you suggesting that atheists and agnostics don't have love in relationships?

35 minutes ago, Will Due said:

All of these things are data regarding God's existence are they not? 

You're not arguing that are you?

Not really will they are aspects of man 

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Lol.

How much of the existent data that indicates God exists have you taken the time to gather up for your consideration?

Would it be fair to say not a lot?

 

 

Will, we simply don’t know if there is or isn’t a god, to claim otherwise is only done so on faith.

I thank my peers, for never giving up on pointing out my errors. Lol 

 

The truth is I really don’t know if there is or isn’t a god, am I open to new discoveries, you bet. Will,  I align my mind with the evidence, you bet, that is if we ever do find it, but I am not holding my breath, yet,  I remain open to possibility. For me, the point  has been in being okay with uncertainty and I am. 

 

 

 

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Sherapy
20 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Lol.

How much of the existent data that indicates God exists have you taken the time to gather up for your consideration?

Would it be fair to say not a lot?

 

 

Will, you are deluding yourself, there is no evidence for or against god.There are a whole lot of beliefs though. 

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XenoFish

If there was legit proof of god, this section would not even exist.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If there was legit proof of god, this section would not even exist.

Exactly! 

Eventually old god’s, become new god’s, become old god's...

 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Will Due
5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will,

Not really sure how you see this list but let's have a walk through it.

 

Stand by. I'm gonna take a shot of Tequila first.

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

What some of us accept is that it was due to a unique set of conditions that allowed it to happen as is seen through the discoveries of several branches of science.

 

What about the tree branches most often referred to as spirit? The tree of life has many branches. You're not going to arbitrarily dismiss (never think about) any of the tree's branches are you?

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Of which there are many which do not agree with each other, if god is a constant then god it would be seen the same way across the board.

 

Religion is man's attempt to define what and who God is. So just like men (and women :rolleyes:) no two are exactly alike. Thank God for that right? It provides for a vast range of diversity that everyone can interpret for themselves and average out.

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Okay and that is personal non-transferable experience and not objective

 

Objective evidence is always interpreted subjectively, where it matters. Where it becomes meaningful personally. Otherwise all things objective may as well exist in the dark on the far side of the moon. Not dead, but humanly lifeless.

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Yes, there is beauty in nature how does that prove there is a god?

 

It doesn't prove anything. But it does create an image of perfection which is sufficient to signal something beautiful about the otherwise raw data.

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Science works with what can be measured, how big is god, holds hands apart like a fisherman this big, moves hands some more this big then stretches them as far as I can reach this big? Science is not about proving god it is about understanding the environment that we exist in.

 

Well said. The data that science discovers is clarifying in exacting ways. It's branches are broad and widespread that sometimes overshadows the sturdiness of the tree's trunk and the life giving support of the tree's roots.

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

If there is a cause and effect it is because they exist in the same physical environment and can be measured.

 

What causes life? 

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Care to expand on what you mean by this?

 

Pain and suffering are essential to personal progressive evolution. Healing is how pain and suffering resolves itself into joy and satisfaction. 

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Are you suggesting that atheists and agnostics don't have love in relationships?

 

Of course not. I'm suggesting that love and relationship provides data regarding God's existence. 

 

5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Not really will they are aspects of man.

 

And man in my opinion, his existence, his yearnings, his quest for truth, his accomplishments in progressing spiritually, is an aspect of God.

 

 

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XenoFish

I also don't understand how a discussion about a label, turned into a preaching session.

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Will Due
28 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Will, you are deluding yourself, there is no evidence for or against god.There are a whole lot of beliefs though. 

 

I thought we were talking about data.

Not all data is evidence. But it is usually considered as a factor in equation.

Isn't it?

 

 

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MWoo7
Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Exactly! 

Eventually old god’s, become new god’s, become old god's...

 

 

 

,.,.,.,

If there was legit proof of god, this section would not even exist.

 

Well that's a wrap, so if you two get bored just drop over to the CLimate thread and drag a few of them kicking and screaming out of the fog.

Edited by MWoo7
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XenoFish
1 minute ago, MWoo7 said:

 

,.,.,.,

 

Well that's a wrap, so if you two get bored just drop over to the CLimate thread and drag a few of them kicking and screaming out of the fog.

Wait a minute.... I can read this. You okay Mwoo? 

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MWoo7
16 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Wait a minute.... I can read this. You okay Mwoo? 

   Yeah I'm slacking off the cofvevveefeffefefe so less typos.

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, MWoo7 said:

   Yeah I'm slacking off the cofvevveefeffefefe so less typos.

Oh, thank goodness. I was worried.:lol:

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jmccr8

Hi Will

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Stand by. I'm gonna take a shot of Tequila first.

Sharing is caring but let's walk and not stagger through this.:lol:

5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

What about the tree branches most often referred to as spirit? The tree of life has many branches. You're not going to arbitrarily dismiss (never think about) any of the tree's branches are you?

And the evidence of this is objective or subjective? Where is the tree, certainly not the one in my front yard that drops leaves on my lawn cuz it is sleeping for half the year?:huh:

8 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Religion is man's attempt to define what and who God is. So just like men (and women :rolleyes:) no two are exactly alike. Thank God for that right? It provides for a vast range of diversity that everyone can interpret for themselves and average out.

Yes Will, and if god is absolute then god would be the same for all men and not given to confused descriptions.

10 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Objective evidence is always interpreted subjectively, where it matters. Where it becomes meaningful personally. Otherwise all things objective may as well exist in the dark on the far side of the moon. Not dead, but humanly lifeless.

Not really Will if I smack my thumb with a hammer and then give yours a smack I am pretty sure we will both have the same objective experience.:lol:

12 minutes ago, Will Due said:

It doesn't prove anything. But it does create an image of perfection which is sufficient to signal something beautiful about the otherwise raw data

If it doesn't prove anything why add it to the list?:huh:

13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Well said. The data that science discovers is clarifying in exacting ways. It's branches are broad and widespread that sometimes overshadows the sturdiness of the tree's trunk and the life giving support of the tree's roots.

Science understands trees and as of yet, there have been no demonstratable aspects of trees that there is anything supernatural about them.

15 minutes ago, Will Due said:

What causes life? 

A unique set of conditions as previously stated.

16 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Pain and suffering are essential to personal progressive evolution. Healing is how pain and suffering resolves itself into joy and satisfaction. 

Can you demonstrate why god would create creatures that subject themselves to pain as a learning experience?

18 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Of course not. I'm suggesting that love and relationship provides data regarding God's existence. 

So there are different types of love given to believers and non-believers? I don't think so children love parents and are not aware of god at birth.

 

20 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And man in my opinion, his existence, his yearnings, his quest for truth, his accomplishments in progressing spiritually, is an aspect of God.

Okay, Will and that is a subjective position.

jmccr8

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Hammerclaw
24 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Exactly! 

Eventually old god’s, become new god’s, become old god's...

 

 

Succinctly summing up the conundrum of ecclesiastical causation.

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onlookerofmayhem
Posted (edited)

Less than two pages in and this thread has already been derailed. 

For those involved, can you seriously stay on topic for once in your god forsaken lives!? :no:

I recommend going back to the first post before you reply and see if your point is even remotely related.

Thanks.

Edited by onlookerofmayhem
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XenoFish

Easy. No one label can convey a person's entire belief/s fully. 

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Will Due
8 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Less than two pages in and this thread has already been derailed. 

For those involved, can you seriously stay on topic for once in your god forsaken lives!? :no:

I recommend going back to the first post before you reply and see if your point is even remotely related.

 

Matt Dillahunty is a preacher. Is he not?

Tell me the truth. Be honest.

 

8 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Thanks.

 

You're welcome.

 

 

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onlookerofmayhem
7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Matt Dillahunty is a preacher. Is he not?

No.

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Sherapy
37 minutes ago, MWoo7 said:

 

,.,.,.,

 

Well that's a wrap, so if you two get bored just drop over to the CLimate thread and drag a few of them kicking and screaming out of the fog.

Sorry, Onlooker, I had to laugh at MWoo on this one.

I am afraid I wouldn’t be so lackadaisical if it was the climate change thread. It is more of a job for Xeno, he has the grit for denial I don’t have. 

 Back on topic. 

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