Atheist vs. Agnostic Label

[GoldenWolf]

You can't have freewill without a master, what type of asinine crazy crap is this?

[Horta]

Just now, Will Due said:

 

The soul (especially its quality) is the direct result of the free will choices made everyday.

When you survive to the afterlife, you will have demonstrated the results of your free will decisions. Especially, their quality.

 

 

That's where I disagree Will.

Humans have will, but it isn't free.

"a man can do what he wills, but he can't will what he wills."

[Will Due]

 

When a person tries to deny that he has free will, he's doing it to avoid responsibility. 

That way, he can think he can do anything he likes. Which proves his will is free.

Which of course isn't true. That he can do whatever he wants. Just ask a prison inmate.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Will Due

[Will Due]

5 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

You can't have freewill without a master, what type of asinine crazy crap is this?

 

Then be your own master.

 

 

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, Horta said:

That's where I disagree Will.

Humans have will, but it isn't free.

"a man can do what he wills, but he can't will what he wills."

 

"Not my will, but yours be done. On earth like it is in heaven".

 

 

[Horta]

5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

When a person tries to deny that he has free will, he's doing it to avoid responsibility. 

That way, he can think he can do anything he likes. Which proves his will is free.

Which of course isn't true. Just ask a prison inmate.

 

 

That's not true Will. It doesn't avoid responsibility. Whether we have free will or not, has no bearing on responsibility. It's a bit incoherent to think that it does.

What it does, is make the idea of ultimate moral responsibility redundant.

We would be a more enlightened society without this anyway. It wouldn't change the way things work, it would only change attitudes. It would give us less justification for hatred and vengeance.

[GoldenWolf]

9 minutes ago, Will Due said:

"Not my will, but yours be done. On earth like it is in heaven".

That would mean you don't have free will.  Do you even think before you hit the submit button?

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, GoldenWolf said:

That would mean you don't have free will.  Do you even think before you hit the submit button?

He allows his thought-adjuster to do all the heavy lifting.

[Will Due]

 

Here's the bottom line.

Do we have a bonafide free will? Yes. 

Can we do or think whatever we want? No.

Whatever or whoever it is that has cause you to exist in a universe that something or someone greater than yourself has caused to exist forever, has also created the situation (in the initial life) that requires everyone to demonstrate that they are willing to live in accordance with the will of said something or someone greater than yourself. 

In the initial life, you don't necessarily have to do this. You don't necessarily have to live in accordance with the will of something much greater than yourself that has caused you to exist.

But not forever.

Forever requires you to take responsibility for your free will. To align it with the will of something greater than yourself. 

If you don't want to, you don't have to. Which demonstrates that you have a bonafide free will. Proves it too.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Will Due

[Horta]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

 

Here's the bottom line.

Do we have a bonafide free will? Yes. 

Can we do or think whatever we want? No.

Whatever or whoever it is that has cause you to exist in a universe that something or someone greater than yourself has caused to exist forever, has also created the situation (in the initial life) that requires everyone to demonstrate that they are willing to live in accordance with the will of said something or someone greater than yourself. 

In the initial life, you don't necessarily have to do this. You don't necessarily have to live in accordance with the will of something much greater than yourself that has caused you to exist.

But not forever.

Forever requires you to take responsibility for your free will. To align it with the will of something much greater than yourself. 

Surely Will, you see the inconsistency in what you are saying? The total contradiction?

It might be more like this.

No one has any say in the evolutionary path that gave rise to them, the brain they were born with, the way it operates, or their early environment.

Their will always be evolutionary "outliers". The same way we have very short people, very tall people and outliers in every other way, there will always be those that will never be able to adjust to society, and those that are exemplars of society. That's just how it is. You can blame god or evolution for that.

So humans have will, they are also responsible (who else could be?), but genuine libertarian free will...unlikely. 

 

[Will Due]

46 minutes ago, Horta said:

Surely Will, you see the inconsistency in what you are saying? The total contradiction?

It might be more like this.

No one has any say in the evolutionary path that gave rise to them, the brain they were born with, the way it operates, or their early environment.

Their will always be evolutionary "outliers". The same way we have very short people, very tall people and outliers in every other way, there will always be those that will never be able to adjust to society, and those that are exemplars of society. That's just how it is. You can blame god or evolution for that.

So humans have will, they are also responsible (who else could be?), but genuine libertarian free will...unlikely. 

 

 

Genuine total unlimited free will? Absolutely not. Possessing limited free will is trouble enough. Again, go ask a prison inmate.

If human beings are compared to seeds, some fall under the noses of birds and are immediately taken without a chance to grow at all. This is true. And it can be blamed on the facts pertaining to evolution.

But so is it also true that some if not most of the seed falls on fertile ground. However, not all ground is equally fertile.

But we're not trees and we can transcend the ground we find ourselves growing in. We're human. Possessed of genuine (limited) free will. Just enough for anyone, even those who have fallen on less than opportune, but still fertile enough ground to grow in accordance with their decisions.

Grow in the direction of their good choices. Which is liberty from unwillingness. Instead of growing whichever way the wind blows.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Will Due

[Will Due]

2 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

That would mean you don't have free will.  

 

When your mom asked you to take out the trash, she made her will known to you.

It was your will however, to cause your will to align with her's.

To make her will be done, instead of yours.

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Will Due

[GoldenWolf]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

When your mom asked you to take out the trash, she made her will known to you.

It was your will however, to cause your will to align with her will.

To make her will be done, not yours.

 

 

 

You're comparing parenting to a Master-servant taskmaster God.  Shameful, absolutely shameful.

[Will Due]

9 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

You're comparing parenting to a Master-servant taskmaster God.  Shameful, absolutely shameful.

 

You have shame in being someone's child?

Shame on you.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Will Due

[GoldenWolf]

Just now, Will Due said:

 

You have shame in being a child?

Shame on you.

 

 

You're a petty petulant person who is going on my ignore list.

[Will Due]

4 minutes ago, GoldenWolf said:

You're a petty petulant person who is going on my ignore list.

 

There ya go. You proved you have free will.

 

 

[Podo]

18 hours ago, Will Due said:

i see you're beginning to understand what those who promote atheism look like.

That you see encouraging critical thinking and reaching one's own evidence-based conclusions as "preaching atheism" and therefore a bad thing is truly sad. You must have a very hard life. I wish you all the best.

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Podo said:

That you see encouraging critical thinking and reaching one's own evidence-based conclusions as "preaching atheism" and therefore a bad thing is truly sad. You must have a very hard life. I wish you all the best.

 

Thank you. Likewise. I wish you nothing but the best too.

Btw, I support all types of thinking. As long as it's honest.

But how sad that you won't admit that those who promote atheism are preaching. Afterall, atheism is an attitude towards the issue of belief in God. Which puts it in the realm of religion. No different than what a person does when they're interested in altruistically serving their fellow man. 

Except in reverse.

 

 

[Aquila King]

3 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

You can't have freewill without a master, what type of asinine crazy crap is this?

It's doublethink.

[Will Due]

 

Doubt is faith.

Hate is love.

Atheism is religion.

 

Hypocrisy is honesty.

Altruism is self-service.

Death is birth.

 

Drudgery is excitement. 

Sleep is woke. 

Poverty is value.

 

 

[Aquila King]

13 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Doubt is faith.

Hate is love.

Atheism is religion.

 

Hypocrisy is honesty.

Altruism is self-service.

Death is birth.

 

Drudgery is excitement. 

Sleep is woke. 

Poverty is value.

 

Yes is No.

Right is Wrong.

Will Due is Smart.

[Will Due]

1 minute ago, Aquila King said:

 

Yes is No.

Right is Wrong.

Will Due is Smart.

 

Last line. Too many words.

 

4 is 5.

Yellow is blue.

AK is alright.

Whether or not, he's got a clue.

 

 

[Podo]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

Thank you. Likewise. I wish you nothing but the best too.

Btw, I support all types of thinking. As long as it's honest.

But how sad that you won't admit that those who promote atheism are preaching. Afterall, atheism is an attitude towards the issue of belief in God. Which puts it in the realm of religion. No different than what a person does when they're interested in altruistically serving their fellow man. 

Except in reverse.

Your problem is that you view critical thinking as "promoting atheism." This is your blunder. Until you figure out why you're so wrong in this, there can be no dialogue between you and non-fundamentalists.

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, Podo said:

Your problem is that you view critical thinking as "promoting atheism." This is your blunder. Until you figure out why you're so wrong in this, there can be no dialogue between you and non-fundamentalists.

 

But I don't view critical thinking as promoting atheism.

Critical thinking doesn't inherently have anything to do with promoting atheism. Why are you connecting them?

Critical thinking is the objective analysis and evaluation of an issue in order to form a judgment. It's used to form judgements about many things. Not just the promotion of atheism.

Maybe you meant promoting atheism is the result of critical thinking. Which of course it is. But is it honest thinking, that drives a person to preach about the tenets of disbelieving God, as a service to one's fellows?

 

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

5 hours ago, Horta said:

I think the Libet experiments should have already demonstrated it, if it was there. That's a very simple experiment.

Ah, I see what you are referring to I think.  If those experiments instead showed that the conscious mind is the first to interact with a decision I agree that it would be a slight improvement for the case of a soul compared to the current experiments, which show the unconscious involved before the conscious (to heavily paraphrase the experiment of course).  However even if these experiments showed that the conscious mind was the first to interact in decision-making, in my view that is a long way from demonstrating much as far as a soul or free will.  I agree with all the criticisms and points you have made against free will in this thread that I've read, but all of those points apply to the conscious mind too, I'm pretty sure they were specifically directed at it actually (since free will decisions made in the unconscious/subconscious is a contradiction).  I don't see any of your arguments relying on or even intersecting much with where decisions are made in our psyche, I didn't see any of your arguments against free will that require at all that decisions not be made in the conscious mind.  I did just skim the experiment so may have missed something.