Myths about Quantum Physics

[onlookerofmayhem]

@papageorge1

Well, thank you for your time taken in replying, but I feel your post is a non-answer to most of my questions.

Why did you engage in this thread if you don't intend on having the discussion? 

7 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Science and spirituality are important and of interest to me.

You denigrate science in almost every instance of the paranormal. 

While I would never attack an individual's philosophical musings, I find it hard to believe you hold science in any positive regard if you don't understand why science has not dove head-on into the paranormal. 

There is nothing but stories, that so far, have no relevance in the world we live in. Nowhere to start exploring.

No model as to what is actually occurring has been proposed. 

Since you have no interest in the topic of this thread, I will cease and desist my efforts to understand your position on the matter.

[papageorge1]

1 minute ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

@papageorge1

Well, thank you for your time taken in replying, but I feel your post is a non-answer to most of my questions.

Why did you engage in this thread if you don't intend on having the discussion? 

You denigrate science in almost every instance of the paranormal. 

While I would never attack an individual's philosophical musings, I find it hard to believe you hold science in any positive regard if you don't understand why science has not dove head-on into the paranormal. 

There is nothing but stories, that so far, have no relevance in the world we live in. Nowhere to start exploring.

No model as to what is actually occurring has been proposed. 

Since you have no interest in the topic of this thread, I will cease and desist my efforts to understand your position on the matter.

 

I feel I am discussing. What's your problem?

Apparently you don't like me thinking science is great but limited in its importance at this time. I think you are looking for an anti-science person that you are set to attack. It ain't me, mayhem. Science is good, of course.

I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that so-called paranormal things do occur and they are dramatically beyond current science's understanding. AND I believe there are wisdom traditions that  can tell us about these things. No, they can't be proved with the physical senses and instruments if that is what you require. Then stick to science only.

 

 

[onlookerofmayhem]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

What's your problem?

Only the fact that you avoid questions like the plague.

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I think you are looking for an anti-science person that you are set to attack.

Absolutely not. I don't attack anyone. If anything I feel like I am one of the most cordial posters on this site. I do not insult or defame anyone. I don't call people liars, ignorant, stupid or any such thing. I try to explain myself and ask questions to further my understanding of others views. I am only looking for intelligent discussion. I asked you multiple question pertaining to your response and you ignored them and said you're more interested in the philosophical side. You also said you took issue with multiple "accusations" in my post and then failed to address them. Cool. But in my opinion, during a discussion, it's polite to try to answer each question posed. That way the discussion actually gets somewhere.

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I am convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that so-called paranormal things do occur and they are dramatically beyond current science's understanding

I am aware. You post this phrase defensively in many of your responses, but you never elucidate any points that would confer why it's reasonable at all. If something has convinced you "beyond all reasonable doubt," are you suggesting that people who don't believe in the paranormal are being unreasonable? What do you know that we don't?

Another reason I posted this thread was to try to get a reasonable response from those that claim Quantum Mechanics has anything at all to do with the paranormal.

 

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I believe there are wisdom traditions that  can tell us about these things.

So, in other words, anecdotes about certain events taking place. Ones that cannot be examined or studied to come to a reasonable assessment if they actually occurred or are just fairy tales.

 

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

No, they can't be proved with the physical senses and instruments if that is what you require.

Then there is no point being reasonable convinced that anything other than prosaic, non-paranormal causes for such events. If your sense and instruments cannot add any evidence to a claim, what does that leave us with? The brain? People have ridiculously imaginative minds. That doesn't make anything they come up with true.

If one cannot describe what and why then there's not much to go on.

Reading a million ghost stories and finding parallels in them, does not make one bit of the stories true.

That is one of qualms in dealing with paranormal advocates. They have no explanation as to what is actually occurring.

Many times people invoke the Quantum Realm to explain how other entities exist there are somehow manifest in this world. Throwing rocks, spilling water, opening cabinets, stealing items, burning bibles, whispering things to people.

While I'm fine with people claiming these events occur, even though I don't believe they are anything but human exploits, I take issue with the fact that these claimants try to use science that they are unfamiliar with as justification.

I'm glad that you are made happy by your forays into spirituality and whatnot. That doesn't really make anything you say more convincing.

[papageorge1]

4 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Only the fact that you avoid questions like the plague.

 

There is no question I wish to avoid. I read your post and read a lot of opinion, criticism, etc. Maybe you are jumping around too much in your posts for me to get a clear focus.

How about this. Ask me any two clear questions delineated as concise questions and I will give you answers. Even label them 1) and 2).

[onlookerofmayhem]

@papageorge1

To keep this related to the topic of the thread :

1. What, if any, is the relationship between quantum mechanics and the paranormal? 

2. What event, or person has given the most convincing display of the paranormal and/or unexplained manipulation of physical objects.

[papageorge1]

12 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

@papageorge1

http://www.saibaba.ws/miracles.htmTo keep this related to the topic of the thread :

1. What, if any, is the relationship between quantum mechanics and the paranormal? 

2. What event, or person has given the most convincing display of the paranormal and/or unexplained manipulation of physical objects.

1) I personally don't particularly tie the paranormal in with quantum mechanics. That would be above my grade. Some thoughts I have is that quantum mechanics dooms the old mechanistic view of how reality works though. That has philosophical ramifications right there.

2) I'll go with Satya Sai Baba. But my belief in the paranormal comes from the cumulative weight of a million and one events of many different kinds. Also I believe telepathy and remote viewing have been essentially proven by controlled testing in producing such fantastic odds against chance. 

[onlookerofmayhem]

10 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I'll go with Satya Sai Baba.

Wow. Just wow. And not in a good way papa.

I just spent 30 minutes watching this guy doing sleight of hand magic tricks. 

Palming rocks and sprinkling them into people's hands. "Coughing" up gold eggs. And pulling gold chains out of his sleeve.

The link you had of his name is just a bunch of stories. 

I find it highly gullible to believe just randomly written stories on some cheesy website.

Anyone could have wrote them and there is no way to verify the stories.

As for his magic tricks he is good, but not that good.

 

Do you believe stage magicians have anything otherworldly going on in their acts?

People are easily fooled and that seems to be the case with your link.

[papageorge1]

6 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Wow. Just wow. And not in a good way papa.

I just spent 30 minutes watching this guy doing sleight of hand magic tricks. 

Palming rocks and sprinkling them into people's hands. "Coughing" up gold eggs. And pulling gold chains out of his sleeve.

The link you had of his name is just a bunch of stories. 

I find it highly gullible to believe just randomly written stories on some cheesy website.

Anyone could have wrote them and there is no way to verify the stories.

As for his magic tricks he is good, but not t thathat good.

 

Do you believe stage magicians have anything otherworldly going on in their acts?

People are easily fooled and that seems to be the case with your link. 

I do not believe he uses slight-of-hand at all but to a non-believer that is their only theory. If you want to get your information from those prejudice against all things religious, spiritual and paranormal then you can easily find that and get what you want to hear. It's called 'preaching to the choir'. But, somewhere you must wonder, is that the honest truth or a hater's version interested in dismissing the paranormal.

We must each judge that for ourselves. You can find attacks against EVERY paranormal figure, investigator suggesting positive results, popular cases, etc.. As to Sai Baba, I think the independent investigations of western parapsychologist  Dr. Erlendur Haraldsson are the most thorough. And I've spent hundreds of hours on this and that exceeds your thirty minutes by a bit.

[onlookerofmayhem]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

And I've spent hundreds of hours on this and that exceeds your thirty minutes by a bit.

Doesn't matter if you've spent 10,000 hours reading stories about it. If I'm a hater you are the opposite. How objectively are you looking at the evidence? Are you not blindly believing the stories about this man? He is obviously doing tricks. 

You may want to mute the video. The music is terrible. You can literally see him palming bits of stone. The video shows him placing it in his "magic" right hand from the left and waving it around. Then crushing it into people's hands. 

 

Seriously it has nothing to do with "haters."

Looking at this and the other few videos available, he is nothing more than any illusionist out there.

How many people in the world are amazed by magic tricks?

It's all part of the show.

If this man could manifest anything out of thin air, why only dust, necklaces, watches and eggs? Why not food for the throngs of believers?

He refused to do any of this under the scrutiny of close observation.

What about his failed prediction about his own death? Was he counting in lunar years?

Can you tell me how he is different from any other magician that performs sleight of hand illusions? 

As for the good doctor :

"Sathya Sai BabaEdit

Erlendur with Karlis Osis investigated the alleged miracles and paranormalpowers of Sathya Sai Baba in the 1980s. He wrote the book Miracles Are My Visiting Cards (1988), also published as Modern Miracles (1997) and republished in 2013 as Modern Miracles: The Story of Sathya Sai Baba: A Modern Day Prophetwhich documented his investigation and research.^[20][21] The book has been described as a "generally sympathetic treatment of Sai Baba".^[22]

In the late 1980s the philosopher of religion David C. Lane wrote that Erlendur's book Modern Miracles"approaches the alleged miracles of Sai Baba with a critical, but open outlook" and recommended it as "the most balanced book ever written" on the subject. Sathya Sai Baba refused to submit to testing in a controlled environment, so Erlendur instead interviewed witnesses. Nevertheless, he debunked some of his alleged miracles, such as the resurrection of Walter Cowan.^[23]

Philosopher Paul Edwards noted how Erlendur did not come to any definite conclusion about the authenticity of Baba's miracles but regarded fraud as unlikely.^[24] Psychologist Janak Pandey wrote that Erlendur was impressed by Baba but could not get him to produce any paranormal phenomena under controlled conditions.^[25]

The parapsychologist Martin Johnson claimed Erlendur had published some "remarkably naïve eyewitness-accounts of the Indian saint's feats" and was surprised Erlendur was taking the possibility that Baba was not a fraud.^[26]Daniel Bassuk Professor of Religious Studies at the University of South Florida wrote "Haraldsson and Osis conclude that they were unable to detect any evidence of fraud, and were led to regard Satya Sai Baba's materializations as 'possibly paranormal'."^[27]

The Indian skeptic Basava Premanandcriticized the book as a collection of anecdotes rather than an objective scientific report,^[28] and the humanist Babu Gogineni found it credulous, saying Erlendur was "more predisposed to believe than to investigate", concluding: "The only lesson one can learn from Erlendur Haraldsson is how not to study the paranormal events."^[29]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlendur_Haraldsson

Bold by me.

It seems he didn't really do much to prove or disprove anything. Although he did debunk the claims about raising the dead guy.

How thorough of a job did he do investigating when most of his work involved collecting anecdotes from believers?

I'm sorry papa. This man screams fraud.

 

[papageorge1]

13 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Doesn't matter if you've spent 10,000 hours reading stories about it. If I'm a hater you are the opposite. How objectively are you looking at the evidence? Are you not blindly believing the stories about this man? He is obviously doing tricks. 

You may want to mute the video. The music is terrible. You can literally see him palming bits of stone. The video shows him placing it in his "magic" right hand from the left and waving it around. Then crushing it into people's hands. 

 

Seriously it has nothing to do with "haters."

Looking at this and the other few videos available, he is nothing more than any illusionist out there.

How many people in the world are amazed by magic tricks?

It's all part of the show.

If this man could manifest anything out of thin air, why only dust, necklaces, watches and eggs? Why not food for the throngs of believers?

He refused to do any of this under the scrutiny of close observation.

What about his failed prediction about his own death? Was he counting in lunar years?

Can you tell me how he is different from any other magician that performs sleight of hand illusions? 

As for the good doctor :

"Sathya Sai BabaEdit

Erlendur with Karlis Osis investigated the alleged miracles and paranormalpowers of Sathya Sai Baba in the 1980s. He wrote the book Miracles Are My Visiting Cards (1988), also published as Modern Miracles (1997) and republished in 2013 as Modern Miracles: The Story of Sathya Sai Baba: A Modern Day Prophetwhich documented his investigation and research.^[20][21] The book has been described as a "generally sympathetic treatment of Sai Baba".^[22]

In the late 1980s the philosopher of religion David C. Lane wrote that Erlendur's book Modern Miracles"approaches the alleged miracles of Sai Baba with a critical, but open outlook" and recommended it as "the most balanced book ever written" on the subject. Sathya Sai Baba refused to submit to testing in a controlled environment, so Erlendur instead interviewed witnesses. Nevertheless, he debunked some of his alleged miracles, such as the resurrection of Walter Cowan.^[23]

Philosopher Paul Edwards noted how Erlendur did not come to any definite conclusion about the authenticity of Baba's miracles but regarded fraud as unlikely.^[24] Psychologist Janak Pandey wrote that Erlendur was impressed by Baba but could not get him to produce any paranormal phenomena under controlled conditions.^[25]

The parapsychologist Martin Johnson claimed Erlendur had published some "remarkably naïve eyewitness-accounts of the Indian saint's feats" and was surprised Erlendur was taking the possibility that Baba was not a fraud.^[26]Daniel Bassuk Professor of Religious Studies at the University of South Florida wrote "Haraldsson and Osis conclude that they were unable to detect any evidence of fraud, and were led to regard Satya Sai Baba's materializations as 'possibly paranormal'."^[27]

The Indian skeptic Basava Premanandcriticized the book as a collection of anecdotes rather than an objective scientific report,^[28] and the humanist Babu Gogineni found it credulous, saying Erlendur was "more predisposed to believe than to investigate", concluding: "The only lesson one can learn from Erlendur Haraldsson is how not to study the paranormal events."^[29]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erlendur_Haraldsson

Bold by me.

It seems he didn't really do much to prove or disprove anything. Although he did debunk the claims about raising the dead guy.

How thorough of a job did he do investigating when most of his work involved collecting anecdotes from believers?

I'm sorry papa. This man screams fraud.

 

Well, again you can get all the stuff I’ve seen a hundred times before.

What do you know beyond what the so-called skeptics tell you?

papa and Haraldsson just might have already considered what they say and also everything else too. 

No sense arguing off-topic. Major paradigm changes only happen never, once or maybe twice in a lifetime and almost never in a debate.

[zep73]

Claiming that QM can explain the supernatural is like claiming that The Beatles killed Sharon Tate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(song)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(scenario)

It is a downright abuse of science.

[papageorge1]

35 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Claiming that QM can explain the supernatural 

I have never heard anyone of serious note  say anything so simplistic and unintelligent (except when skeptics describe believers’ positions).

[zep73]

4 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I have never heard anyone of serious note  say anything so simplistic and unintelligent (except when skeptics describe believers’ positions).

Be careful not to get two-tongued in your defensive strategy.