Russia probes II -- The Mueller Report

[DieChecker]

19 hours ago, Einsteinium said:

In comparison Trump is by far one of the weakest presidents when it comes to confronting Russia we have ever had.

Out of curiousity, what makes Russia the boogeyman? Their military adventurism? The testing of nearby nations by their military? The Crimea takeover?

Or just that we hate them for spending money on our elections when they had no business doing so?

Seems to me you can change more nations with honey, then with vinegar. 

[DieChecker]

15 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Well exactly. If you want to destabilise an Enemy you watch their news, read their newspapers, listen to their podcasts and then do exactly what you need to do, based on what you’ve discovered to destabilise the government. You don’t actually need to have anyone in the US in your pocket. 

I wonder if there is anything preventing them, or say China, or Iran, from doing it again? They obviously can see everything we do. And it only takes a handful of agents with long term roots here, to pedal influence as being home grown.

[DieChecker]

15 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Theres a little revisionist history in that statement he has wholly thrown out what were not too long ago Republican tenets.  Balanced budget? Smaller government? Honest Government? Moral leadership? Those are all undeniably tossed out the window. I would argue constitutionality is as well but understand the right will never own that so just set it aside.

Tax cuts... deregulation... supreme court justices... support of religious rights... support of pro-life...

Sometimes you have to take the good, along with some bad.

[RavenHawk]

Trump being the outsider, he’s not that up on established protocol.  That’s one thing that the insiders hate about Trump.  And that’s what the people like about him.  He is shaking up the status quo in Washington.  Stirring up the cockroaches.  So I’m sure early on he is feeling his way through.  That’s why there was early discourse.  No big deal.  But that does present perception problems and the MSM got a hold of that and alienated themselves from the President and the People.  Because Comey would not announce that Trump was not under investigation, I think Trump then surmised that Comey was a source of the leaks and it was time for him to go.  At the same time, that gave the cabal ammunition to take down Trump.  But I think it blew up in their faces and we’re going to be discovering this in the months to come.  We’ll be hearing about treason and the soft coup.

 

In business, you send an underling to fire somebody.  But the perception that the MSM had built up made it uneasy for anyone else to do it.  Trump knew he was not involved with collusion but the perception of it pushed by the MSM was damaging to this country and Trump needed to mitigate these holes in his Administration.  This is why in times past the current rulers would put everyone involved with the previous ruler to death.  Now we don’t do that today, but with what Trump has had to deal with, emphasizes the need to remove everyone from power of the previous Administration, which would require a law to no longer slow walk confirmations through the Senate.

 

The thing is, is that Trump could have called Comey to the Oval Office, told him that he was getting too close to the truth about him and Putin working together and fire Comey and that would not have been obstruction.  I’m sure this will be repeated another million times but the FBI Director works at the pleasure of the President and the President can fire him at any time for any reason, PERIOD!  = NOT OBSTRUCTION.  Comey is not the FBI.  If there was real evidence of collusion then the rank and file would be working the case and whoever took over would be bound to bring charges (not everyone is Hilary).  No charges were brought because there were none to begin with.

[RoofGardener]

42 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

But... but... it makes good sound bites, and sounds like the collusion the far left desires... so then must be true.

(Sarcasm) 

such sarcasm. In one so young. 'Tis a terrible thing to behold ! 

[ian hacktorp]

The Steele Dossier...the core support used to justify FISA warrants for spying on Trump campaign officials...that sacred document STILL being hailed by some Lefties as proof of Trump's unfitness for office...is now being called out by (of all sources) NYT as itself being the product of Russian disinformation.  Oh, boy...grab a seat:

Mueller Report Likely to Renew Scrutiny of Steele Dossier

Quote

By January 2017, F.B.I. agents had tracked down and interviewed one of Mr. Steele’s main sources, a Russian speaker from a former Soviet republic who had spent time in the West, according to a Justice Department document and three people familiar with the events, who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Another possibility — one that Mr. Steele has not ruled out — could be Russian disinformation. That would mean that in addition to carrying out an effective attack on the Clinton campaign, Russian spymasters hedged their bets and placed a few land mines under Mr. Trump’s presidency as well.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/19/us/politics/steele-dossier-mueller-report.html

One wonders if this is the real reason Barr said "Russians tried to interfere with our elections".

In any event, it's getting suckier by the day to be a Dem/RINO politician.

Edited April 20, 2019 by hacktorp

[Buzz_Light_Year]

3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

The population of the USA in John Adam's time was about 5 million. Today it is.. what... 330 Million ? The framers of the constitution couldn't have predicted this, or a powerful (and biased) mass media ? 

Benjamin Franklin had quite a bit to say about Freedom of the Press.

https://www.heritage.org/american-founders/commentary/franklin-and-the-free-press

One Franklin quote from the article.

Quote

The accused is allowed no grand jury to judge of the truth of the accusation before it is publicly made, nor is the Name of the Accuser made known to him, nor has he an Opportunity of confronting the Witnesses against him; for they are kept in the dark, as in the Spanish Court of Inquisition.

A quote from the article that follows Franklin's quote

Quote

The open presentation of evidence of wrongdoing corroborated by facts shows respect for rational and transparent procedures that embody the spirit of justice. Such proceedings presume citizens' intellectual capacity to be convinced by the force of facts and arguments. With the Inquisition, to the contrary, assent is founded on fear and intimidation, as one would expect from despotism. Here there is darkness, mystery, and anxious anticipation. In its practice, Franklin contends, the press contradicts the principles by which it justifies its authority: It claims that belief stems from the free and rational persuasion of the mind, but in its deeds it insists that belief should be compelled through its own powers of insinuation, intimidation, and accusation.

 

I highly recommend everyone read this article as it is well worth the time spent.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Buzz_Light_Year

[+and-then]

45 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

In any event, it's getting suckier by the day to be a Dem/RINO politician.

It may be, but do you ever expect the true believers, the hardcore Trump haters to admit they were in error?  A handful with some integrity might but most will continue to repeat the mantra and argue that Barr is corrupt.  BTW, he seems to be a guy who might just drop the hammer on people who attempt to publicly impugn his honor.  I guess we'll see if he's the real deal or not.  If he is... oh my... if he begins a serious investigation into why the FBI, CIA and the DNI generated this probe and he finds no reasonable predicate for the actions they took and subpoenas them you can look for the media and the Left to completely lose their minds.  It wouldn't surprise me if protests and even rioting took place in some Liberal cities.  These crooks at the top attempted a coup and if it comes into the light so people can see proof of it, it would be devastating for the Dem Party.  That, they cannot allow.

[ian hacktorp]

10 minutes ago, and then said:

...you can look for the media and the Left to completely lose their minds

Well, yesterday we had CNN's April Ryan making the call to "lop off" Sarah Huckabee-Sanders' head, so one could argue the Leftist media are losing their minds at this very moment.

The "hardcore Trump haters" here can't say they weren't warned this would happen.

[+and-then]

1 hour ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Benjamin Franklin had quite a bit to say about Freedom of the Press.

https://www.heritage.org/american-founders/commentary/franklin-and-the-free-press

One Franklin quote from the article.

I highly recommend everyone read this article as it is well worth the time spent.

That really nailed them down EXACTLY as I've seen them today.  The old guy actually knew a thing or two, didn't he?  

[Tatetopa]

It says a lot for the consistency of American political opinions that the Mueller Report changed nothing.  Each side of the debate stands exactly where it did before the report was released.  

[ian hacktorp]

10 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It says a lot for the consistency of American political opinions that the Mueller Report changed nothing.  Each side of the debate stands exactly where it did before the report was released.  

Not sure how one could reach that conclusion when the likes of NYT is out with opinions casting negative light on the Steele Dossier and even Barack Obama himself.  If anything, American political opinions are signalling a massive, impending shift toward admitting the truth.  Only the most blind could fail to see it.

Don't forget, also, that we are at this point having only seen the best shots taken by one side: the Trump-hating side...pathetic though it was.  Still waiting in the wings is the declassification of the FISA docs (imminent), the OIG report, and the unsealing of indictments that both sides have been clamoring for.

So, it seems rather hopeful to say "nothing has changed", when the momentum has clearly shifted toward the side that has, for 2 years, been taking all of the slings and arrows.  Now it's their turn.

[RoofGardener]

34 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It says a lot for the consistency of American political opinions that the Mueller Report changed nothing.  Each side of the debate stands exactly where it did before the report was released.  

I'd have to agree with Hacktorp above, Tatetopa. In addition, I think the MSM has lost its credibility with large swathes of the American people. Each side of the debate may stand exactly where it did before, but the Heralds have become soiled. It will be difficult for them to maintain the "anti-Trump" narrative in future, and they MAY have just handed the President a second term !

[ian hacktorp]

9 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

and they MAY have just handed the President a second term !

Worse (for them) than that, they MAY have just handed a few terms to Trump's kids, as well.

I don't know how things could get any more dire for the Left...but I'm sure they will figure out a way!

Edited April 20, 2019 by hacktorp

[Tatetopa]

17 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

I'd have to agree with Hacktorp above, Tatetopa. In addition, I think the MSM has lost its credibility with large swathes of the American people. Each side of the debate may stand exactly where it did before, but the Heralds have become soiled. It will be difficult for them to maintain the "anti-Trump" narrative in future, and they MAY have just handed the President a second term !

Based on the comments of you and Hacktorp, I will stand pat.    Yes indeed, NYT does highlight some negative things about Obama in the Mueller report.  Some would also say a great deal of negative has been revealed about the Trump White House.

Nevertheless , you don't think that is a truth to consider and it doesn't look like those on the left are going to give up their opinions either.

For some, the report said that the only thing that saved the President from committing obstruction were his staff and aids who did not carry out his orders. Hacktorp, they believe they do see the truth just as much as you do.

People want to get on with business, but I think you are kidding yourself if you think the Democrats had an epiphany that Trump is really a good guy after all.

As for a second term, Roof, I think you are probably right.  If they go after impeachment, a lot of people will sour on the Dem side.  After Trump though, what Republican could do anything but stand in his shadow?  

 

 

[Tatetopa]

52 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

Not sure how one could reach that conclusion when the likes of NYT is out with opinions casting negative light on the Steele Dossier and even Barack Obama himself. 

That is a good case in point Hacktorp. 

The report says that apparently the Obama administration was aware of attempted election hacking by Russia and did nothing about it.  To the people that dislike the idea of Russian interference , that makes him look pretty bad.

To people that now want better relations with Russia, he may look like a pioneer. He knew about Russian interference.  Maybe he called Putin up on the hotline.  Putin says "We didn't do it."  Just exactly like President Trump did later, Obama goes back to his intelligence people and says, "Hey, Putin says he didn't do it.  I believe him,. You guys are wrong.  Russia is not our enemy, we want better relations with them."    Obama and Trump, both heroes for wanting better relations with Russia.

Not saying I believe that, but you can see how easy this stuff is to spin.

[ian hacktorp]

On 4/19/2019 at 9:59 AM, Einsteinium said:

What are you talking about 'product of an international conspiracy'? How ridiculous

Ridiculous, yes.  Ridiculous that they thought they would get away with it.

It was, without question, an international conspiracy:

George Papadopoulos‏ @GeorgePapa19

FollowFollow @GeorgePapa19

More

You know who else was in London on May 6th (the day Mueller says the “investigation” launched) besides the DIA guys and Alexander Downer’s wannabe honeypot, Erika Thompson?Bill Priestap, Peter Strzok’s direct boss. The FBI/CIA was colluding with Australia to create a fake pretext

[ian hacktorp]

6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Obama and Trump, both heroes for wanting better relations with Russia

Yeah, I know there is now a desperate push by the Left to somehow place Trump and Barry on morally equivalent ground.  It's not going to work.

If you really want to extrapolate what we've seen so far, Trump's legacy will be as the man who ended the terrorist wars and saved the US from certain globalist slavery.  Obama's legacy will be as the CIA-groomed, Manchurian Candidate POS the people of the US managed to scrape off their collective shoe-bottom.

So, big difference.

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

It says a lot for the consistency of American political opinions that the Mueller Report changed nothing.  Each side of the debate stands exactly where it did before the report was released.  

And here’s the difference.  In our system, one is innocent until proven guilty.  I.e. you are either guilty or not guilty.  There is nothing else.  The Mueller found no evidence of collusion or obstruction, i.e. not guilty.  You cannot exonerate an innocent person.  To say that there is no evidence to exonerate an innocent person is at the least unprofessional.  But as what has been stated by me and others, the Progs took their best shot, now it’s Trump’s turn and the evidence is thick with smoke, one won’t need the fire.  Now if you will pardon me, I have some more roots to dig up.  Found a parasitic root that undermined the corner of the house.  Foundation looks ok but we have a new cat door that doesn’t belong there… 

[Setton]

4 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

The Mueller found no evidence of collusion or obstruction,

Still not true however often you repeat it. 

[Setton]

28 minutes ago, hacktorp said:

Yeah, I know there is now a desperate push by the Left to somehow place Trump and Barry on morally equivalent ground.  It's not going to work.

If you really want to extrapolate what we've seen so far, Trump's legacy will be as the man who ended the terrorist wars and saved the US from certain globalist slavery.  Obama's legacy will be as the CIA-groomed, Manchurian Candidate POS the people of the US managed to scrape off their collective shoe-bottom.

So, big difference.

In your eyes, no doubt. 

[ian hacktorp]

8 minutes ago, Setton said:

In your eyes, no doubt. 

Good one.

You know, I hope you guys have a plan for the day the UK is no longer able to ride the coattails of the US taxpayer...because that day is coming soon.

Y'all may find yourselves shoulder-to-shoulder fishing for eels in the Thames for a spell.  Best of luck to you.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Still not true however often you repeat it. 

Let me check...... has El Trumpo been indicted or impeached? No? Have moved to indict or impeach him begun? No? 

So, while it might not be “true”, the opposite, so Desiree by the other side isn’t true either.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Sir Wearer of Hats

[Farmer77]

10 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Yeeeesss... ummm...... 

1) The hacks began two years previously

2) The article you've posted makes the point that Trump told his joke several hours AFTER the DNC attack had been announced . Shortly after the DNC attack (and also shortly after Trump's joke), the attackers moved on to Hilary Clinton's private office. However, this was very likely as a result of information gleaned from the DNC hack, and in turn had been "in the pipeline" for some time. 

Hackers work like that. They gradually 'unpeel the onion', using information from ONE successful hack to form the basis of the NEXT attack. 

Dude you challenged Einsteinium saying we know the Russians went after Hillarys emails after Trump asked for them. You asked if we knew they did it , I showed you how we did, from the same document that you are quite willing to accept other findings from.

[Farmer77]

4 hours ago, hacktorp said:

ot sure how one could reach that conclusion when the likes of NYT is out with opinions casting negative light on the Steele Dossier and even Barack Obama himself.  If anything, American political opinions are signalling a massive, impending shift toward admitting the truth.  Only the most blind could fail to see it.

No this is simply a case of seeing, or more realistically being force fed , what you want to hear. This is not the first time there were any opinion pieces published by the NYT that were negative to the dossier or Obama.