Russia probes II -- The Mueller Report

[ian hacktorp]

25 minutes ago, and then said:

If their hypocrisy weren't so staggering, I might give them a pass.  Mueller himself said that after multiple attempts by Russia to push info to the Trump campaign, they failed.  And HRC was out there actively seeking and paying for it.  And what Dems have expressed outrage over her attempts?  Hypocritical bass tards.

Let's face it, they are down to the final, daring plays in their tattered playbook.

It's 4th down and we'll either see a wobbly 99-yard Hail Mary pass attempt or maybe a hide-the-ball-in-Adam-Schiff's-pants run play that takes forever to unfold but never actually crosses the line of scrimmage.

Grab a beer and a dog and watch the hilarity ensue.

Edited June 14, 2019 by hacktorp

[Harte]

32 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Another glaring difference, Harte, is Weintraub's memo said "foreign governments", not individuals. So Russia could not give Hillary that info (steele dossier) but Fusion GPS could.  Interesting.

Same thing. If you pay for it, the contractor has to get the info somewhere.

Harte

[Merc14]

I have two questions:

1. Why is Andrew McCabe on CNN rather than in a jail cell?

2. After what happened to the Trump campaign in 2016, why would any republican candidate for public office even think of turning over anything to the FBI or DoJ?

[Vorg]

Yep, the dumbarats are slowly sinking on the grasping for straw ship that they built.

Edited June 14, 2019 by South Alabam

[RavenHawk]

3 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Yep, the dumbarats are slowly sinking on the grasping for straw ship they built that is slowly sinking.

They’ve already gone down.  Plastic garbage never really sinks, in just flounders in the waves.

[ian hacktorp]

The rich irony here is just too delicious...Creepy Uncle Joe (Biden) has the Dem party so badly split that we now have many Dems themselves warning that polls aren't to be trusted when they indicate Biden is running ahead of...anybody.

Dems Bash Biden's "Landslide" Lead: "These Polls Are Not To Be Trusted"

Quote

And like Clinton, Biden's main selling point is that he's "popular" and "experienced." Polls are a major factor in this. If Biden's supporters become disabused of the  notion that he's 'the only one who can beat Trump', the former vice president could very well lose his grip on the 2020 nomination.

But this time around, even other Democrats are whining about the polls, according to the Hill.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-14/dems-bash-bidens-landslide-lead-these-polls-are-not-be-trusted

#whataclownshow

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, and then said:

Are you aware that Obama used U.S. funds, channeled through Israeli NGOs to attempt to defeat Bibi Netanyahu?  Or that we cheerfully meddle in other elections around the globe, regularly?  Or that Russia and China - among many others - do the same against us, all the time?  Were you under the impression that the Russian cyber-efforts changed a single vote?  Herr Mueller even confirmed this to be true.  It was a sham, Tat.  It is embarrassing to still be clinging to such a disingenuous figleaf just because Trump disgusts you personally.  Think of him as equitable payback for those of us that had to suffer 8 years of Obama and his lawless crew.  The hysteria that is underway now is going to cause a direct attack on our 2020 election and the D's are already developing a fallback position to deny his legitimacy if he wins again.  As crazy as the Left has become, that might just include widespread violence.  You down for that, too?

Well no.  I am not down for any of it on either side, not from us and not from foreign powers. I am not down for Democrats doing it or Republicans or North Koreans or Chinese or Russians or 300 pound kids living in their parents basement.   It is wrong when we do it, it is wrong when somebody does it to us.  

It is not a fig leaf for an anti-Trump opinion,   It is a general idea that if we can't trust our elections to be honest, we don't have a democracy.  Leave Donald Trump alone that is fine.

Are you down with 3 million illegal immigrants voting as President Trump said happened?

Are you down with continued experimentation by foreign hackers on US elections?

Do you think that  practice doesn't improve efforts? 

There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that a national election is conducted properly.  My God  fake elections are so third world.  Do we need the UN to send monitors?  That would be insulting to us.  and we should be capable of managing elections and preserving our democracy.

Maybe Congress should get off their benches and make sure 2020 elections are secure.  This should be a united bipartisan concern, not a party politics talking point.

 

As for violence, I have never advocated it.  I haven't even exclaimed "Burn it down"  as some have on this site.  So definitely not.  I am not down with it.  

[+and-then]

6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Are you down with continued experimentation by foreign hackers on US elections?

Do you think that  practice doesn't improve efforts? 

Straw man.  Election meddling isn't something I have the slightest control over and neither does any other average American.  The point and the FACT is that Russia didn't change a single vote tally.  IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for an outside entity to change electoral results strategically within 50 separate national elections, state by state.  Or weren't you aware that while they won the EC for Trump they also managed to give HRC the popular vote?  How, exactly did they manage that?

In our modern cyber slave world it is impossible to stop the influence of ideas on the net from influencing public opinion, wouldn't you agree?  So how can we vilify and delegitimize a president because a foreign power worked in what they saw as their own best interests to influence who would win?  Shall we shut down the Net for the 2 years prior to every national election?  The Left is setting up a situation where they can simply deny the validity of an election they don't agree with.  Did you note any complaints in 2018?  No?  I wonder why?  

When we walk away from using ballots, it won't be a good turning for our nation.

[Merc14]

14 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Well no.  I am not down for any of it on either side, not from us and not from foreign powers. I am not down for Democrats doing it or Republicans or North Koreans or Chinese or Russians or 300 pound kids living in their parents basement.   It is wrong when we do it, it is wrong when somebody does it to us.  

It is not a fig leaf for an anti-Trump opinion,   It is a general idea that if we can't trust our elections to be honest, we don't have a democracy.  Leave Donald Trump alone that is fine.

Are you down with 3 million illegal immigrants voting as President Trump said happened?

Are you down with continued experimentation by foreign hackers on US elections?

Do you think that  practice doesn't improve efforts? 

There should be no doubt in anybody's mind that a national election is conducted properly.  My God  fake elections are so third world.  Do we need the UN to send monitors?  That would be insulting to us.  and we should be capable of managing elections and preserving our democracy.

Maybe Congress should get off their benches and make sure 2020 elections are secure.  This should be a united bipartisan concern, not a party politics talking point.

 

As for violence, I have never advocated it.  I haven't even exclaimed "Burn it down"  as some have on this site.  So definitely not.  I am not down with it.  

One thing you need to understand is that the Russians aren't really concerned about who wins an election unless one candidate is rabidly pro-Russian) they are more concerned with creating turmoil for the winner.  In 2016, every single poll had Hillary winning in a landslide and so Russia, in their clumsy way, tried to sow dissent for the future president by conducting an anti-Hilary campaign.  To the surprise of all, Trump won but the Russians managed to attain their goal of sowing dissent because the democrats chose to chase the collusion myth like rabid dogs.  Subsequently, the Russians succeeded wildly and the US has been in tumult for two years but it isn't really anything the Russians did, they barely caused the scales to shift a nano-meter, it is because of how we as a nation chose to behave, on both sides of the aisle.

[RavenHawk]

28 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

It is wrong when we do it, it is wrong when somebody does it to us.  

It’s not really wrong.  This is how nations deal with each other.  One nation just doesn’t state “we don’t do that”.  That nation doesn’t survive for very long when it doesn’t defend its own interests.  The other nations will and if the government does not have the will to return in kind, the only way to stop it is to go to war.

 

It is a general idea that if we can't trust our elections to be honest, we don't have a democracy. 

We really don’t have a democracy.  It is a Representative (or Constitutional) Republic.  We use democratic principles for convenience because a pure democracy is tyrannical.  One man one vote at the federal level is the worse kind of dictator.

 

Are you down with 3 million illegal immigrants voting as President Trump said happened?

Were they even present?

 

Are you down with continued experimentation by foreign hackers on US elections?

It’s not the foreign hackers that bother me.  It is the domestic ballot stuffers.  Georgia, Florida, and here in New Mexico there were questionable activities with the counting during the mid-terms.  Ballots all of a sudden appearing, delays and recounts, missed deadlines, etc.

 

Do you think that  practice doesn't improve efforts? 

This leads into a response in another thread to you that I need to finish, but isn’t that what we are doing now?  Are we not practicing what the Founding Fathers gave us?  A system that teeters on corruption but always manages to pull itself from the brink of tyranny?  For sure, we would have gone down that black hole if we trusted in the popular vote.  Our government was designed to thwart the schemes of wannabe despots.

 

Maybe Congress should get off their benches and make sure 2020 elections are secure.  This should be a united bipartisan concern, not a party politics talking point.

In order to do that would require transparency.  Clean and purge the voter rolls regularly and mandate voter ID.  Maybe require everyone to register within every 4 year cycle?  Do electronic voting that requires email confirmation within 24 hours?  If some groups are crying bias that keeps them from voting then make it difficult for everyone.  For a citizen, voting is a solemn duty.  If you are serious and dedicated to voting, nothing will stop you.  It’s not taking voting seriously that opens it up to corruption.  Ultimately, the responsibility is with the people and not Congress.

 

As for violence, I have never advocated it.  I haven't even exclaimed "Burn it down"  as some have on this site.  So definitely not.  I am not down with it.  

I fear that this is the last tool of desperation the Left has.  I’m just not sure as to what extent it will go?

[Tatetopa]

14 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

One thing you need to understand is that the Russians aren't really concerned about who wins an election unless one candidate is rabidly pro-Russian) they are more concerned with creating turmoil for the winner.  In 2016, every single poll had Hillary winning in a landslide and so Russia, in their clumsy way, tried to sow dissent for the future president by conducting an anti-Hilary campaign.  To the surprise of all, Trump won but the Russians managed to attain their goal of sowing dissent because the democrats chose to chase the collusion myth like rabid dogs.  Subsequently, the Russians succeeded wildly and the US has been in tumult for two years but it isn't really anything the Russians did, they barely caused the scales to shift a nano-meter, it is because of how we as a nation chose to behave, on both sides of the aisle.

That is a good point.

 

30 minutes ago, and then said:

In our modern cyber slave world it is impossible to stop the influence of ideas on the net from influencing public opinion, wouldn't you agree?  So how can we vilify and delegitimize a president because a foreign power worked in what they saw as their own best interests to influence who would win? 

Yes I do agree.  The whole concept of fake news is disturbing but real.  President Trump won the election, he is the President, no doubt in my mind.   My personal opinion is clear, but I am not totally blinded to facts by animosity.  I think in several posts I have acknowledged that President Trump is brilliant at what he does.  I also know that he has given conservatives some important victories.  I can certainly understand why you appreciate that.

It seems to me that unless something happens in the next year, like the President committing a major blunder or the economy tanking,  none of the 20 Democratic candidates have the same stature as President Trump, either nationally or internationally.  I certainly will not be too surprised if he is reelected.    If Barney Rubble wins the popular vote, I might suspect outside interference.

Merc14 had a very good point about creating chaos.  Both sides are more susceptible to it than ever.  We don't always think of our counterparts as loyal Americans with different views, but often as traitors who want to destroy the Republic.  That is a rich field for the Russians or anybody to work.

So, what happens next?  Do we spend the rest of our lives bombarded by fake news and deep fake videos?  Is it free for all with the US and all other countries involved in each other's elections?  Doesn't  that  lead to globalism?  Not an attack here, just a concern.

[Vorg]

3 hours ago, hacktorp said:

The rich irony here is just too delicious...Creepy Uncle Joe (Biden) has the Dem party so badly split that we now have many Dems themselves warning that polls aren't to be trusted when they indicate Biden is running ahead of...anybody.

Dems Bash Biden's "Landslide" Lead: "These Polls Are Not To Be Trusted"

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-06-14/dems-bash-bidens-landslide-lead-these-polls-are-not-be-trusted

#whataclownshow

Call the "Bible belt" and ask about gay rights, etc.. then call "San Fransisco" and ask about gay rights, etc..and watch two very different opinions emerge. Polls can be manipulated. And it is not like I trusted them anyway. No, polls can be manipulated so that weak minded individuals will be swayed to vote for a candidate thinking they are going to win anyway.

[RavenHawk]

6 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Call the "Bible belt" and ask about gay rights, etc.. then call "San Fransisco" and ask about gay rights, etc..and watch two very different opinions emerge. Polls can be manipulated. And it is not like I trusted them anyway. No, polls can be manipulated so that weak minded individuals will be swayed to vote for a candidate thinking they are going to win anyway.

Now you see the Progs yelling that you can’t trust the polls.  Because they are afraid that their new voter base (the illegals) won’t vote because they’ll think that the Progs will win and the illegals will be too afraid to vote because they might get caught and deported.  I wonder what the odds are that we will now start seeing fewer polls conducted?

[Vorg]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

That is a good point.

 

Yes I do agree.  The whole concept of fake news is disturbing but real.  President Trump won the election, he is the President, no doubt in my mind.   My personal opinion is clear, but I am not totally blinded to facts by animosity.  I think in several posts I have acknowledged that President Trump is brilliant at what he does.  I also know that he has given conservatives some important victories.  I can certainly understand why you appreciate that.

It seems to me that unless something happens in the next year, like the President committing a major blunder or the economy tanking,  none of the 20 Democratic candidates have the same stature as President Trump, either nationally or internationally.  I certainly will not be too surprised if he is reelected.    If Barney Rubble wins the popular vote, I might suspect outside interference.

Merc14 had a very good point about creating chaos.  Both sides are more susceptible to it than ever.  We don't always think of our counterparts as loyal Americans with different views, but often as traitors who want to destroy the Republic.  That is a rich field for the Russians or anybody to work.

So, what happens next?  Do we spend the rest of our lives bombarded by fake news and deep fake videos?  Is it free for all with the US and all other countries involved in each other's elections?  Doesn't  that  lead to globalism?  Not an attack here, just a concern.

Here's what we see from our side Tateopa, not an attack on you either:

When  it all became about Democrats "Getting Trump" while ignoring past deeds or spewing hypocrisy of their own party, they show their true colors.

Maxine Waters has wanted to Impeach President Trump before he was even elected. Shall we one of many made up reasons? How about the old "Grab em by the *****" phrase from Trump. Such locker room trash talk from a Presidential Candidate, totally disgraceful. Yet  when President Bill Clinton was accused of rape and later misconduct in the Oval Office of which it was proven by semen on a dress, Maxine Waters called it a Republiblican coup.

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2017/02/07/flashback-1998-maxine-waters-clinton-impeachment-coup-detat-unapologetic-disregard-voice-people/

From the article ( Laughable to hear Maxine's say this) "However, I am greatly disappointed in the raw, unmasked, unbridled hatred and meanness that drives this impeachment coups d’etat, this unapologetic disregard for the voice of the people."

Now she is the Financial Service Chair head who has wanted to impeach Trump since BEFORE he came in Office and she is very clearly biased yet, like others in the Mueller investigation or elsewhere would scream bloody murder if asked to recuse herself.

What about Elijah Cummings Calling him an illegitimate President? No collusion showing that Russia helped Trump win the Presidency has emerged, so has he apologized? 

If he tries to close the border he is called a racist. This is where no doubt a large part of illegal drugs in America come from. Yet Democrats before Trump have voted to build barriers to curtail illegal immigration. Maybe a wall isn't the best method, I don't know. But something is better than nothing. 

And I could go on and on.. since Jan 20, 2017

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, South Alabam said:

Here's what we see from our side Tateopa, not an attack on you either:

When  it all became about Democrats "Getting Trump" while ignoring past deeds or spewing hypocrisy of their own party, they show their true colors.

yeah, thanks I know.   Clinton was pretty easy for me to dislike.  Slick Willie and his crew were embarrassments.  I am fully aware the Democrats have done some reprehensible things, I think the Republicans have done a few as well. How do we climb back out of this hole?  How do we trust each other again or do we just call it quits?  Seems as silly and immature as a playground fight.   Did the founders think it would ever come to this?

[+and-then]

53 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Did the founders think it would ever come to this?

I have no doubt that they did.  Hell, they probably even dealt with a certain degree of it back then.  The difference today is singular and potentially deadly to our form of government and coexistence.  It is an all pervasive, all controlling electronic media with an eye that never sleeps.  And it has aligned itself with ONE ideology within our nation.  A better question might be, how far are the two of them ready to go to get their way?

[Merc14]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

yeah, thanks I know.   Clinton was pretty easy for me to dislike.  Slick Willie and his crew were embarrassments.  I am fully aware the Democrats have done some reprehensible things, I think the Republicans have done a few as well. How do we climb back out of this hole?  How do we trust each other again or do we just call it quits?  Seems as silly and immature as a playground fight.   Did the founders think it would ever come to this?

The founders were  at each others throats more viciously then we are, believe me and it is all thee to read in history.   I do believe, however, that this is the first time the press has completely thrown in the towel and become an extension, a tool, of one side

[+and-then]

3 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

The founders were  at each others throats more viciously then we are, believe me and it is all thee to read in history.   I do believe, however, that this is the first time the press has completely thrown in the towel and become an extension, a tool, of one side

I was reading Mark Levin's newest book: Unfreedom of the Press and the history of how the free press has changed over the life of our country is fascinating but I agree that this is the first time it has become a monolithic representative of a single "side" or Party.  It truly has become the 5th Column today.

[Merc14]

27 minutes ago, and then said:

I was reading Mark Levin's newest book: Unfreedom of the Press and the history of how the free press has changed over the life of our country is fascinating but I agree that this is the first time it has become a monolithic representative of a single "side" or Party.  It truly has become the 5th Column today.

They have become Pravda without a Stalin, they did it voluntarily. The baby boomers took over the universities and indoctrinated generations of kids into the progressive religion and here we are.  They grew up with huge college debt and no chance at a job so let's hope they see that prosperity through progressive ideology is not possible.

Edited June 15, 2019 by Merc14

[Vorg]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

yeah, thanks I know.   Clinton was pretty easy for me to dislike.  Slick Willie and his crew were embarrassments.  I am fully aware the Democrats have done some reprehensible things, I think the Republicans have done a few as well. How do we climb back out of this hole?  How do we trust each other again or do we just call it quits?  Seems as silly and immature as a playground fight.   Did the founders think it would ever come to this?

To tell the truth, we all know Trump isn't the best Republican that could have ran, but then again, when up against Hillary, I wasn't just going to give her the win. It was damned if we did, damed if we didn't and to me, Trump was the better choice. Hillary smashed blackberries, deleted 33,000 "soccer" mom emails, and used bleach bit on her drives all after getting subpoenaed from Congress for those items, then had the audacity to say that "Donald Trump obstructed justice." She has been around since the Watergate days, and those of us old enough have seen Forty-five years of this same kind of deception spew forth from her, or Bill. And this is why she is not Madame President. Some people have been watching for decades, and haven't forgotten what we have seen, no matter how the media suddenly portrays her as their sweet "Darling."

[Agent0range]

7 hours ago, and then said:

Straw man. 

I think you need to look up the definition of straw man.  Something that has, and is actively happening does not fit that definition whatsoever.  

[Merc14]

2 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

To tell the truth, we all know Trump isn't the best Republican that could have ran, but then again, when up against Hillary, I wasn't just going to give her the win. It was damned if we did, damed if we didn't and to me, Trump was the better choice. Hillary smashed blackberries, deleted 33,000 "soccer" mom emails, and used bleach bit on her drives all after getting subpoenaed from Congress for those items, then had the audacity to say that "Donald Trump obstructed justice." She has been around since the Watergate days, and those of us old enough have seen Forty-five years of this same kind of deception spew forth from her, or Bill. And this is why she is not Madame President. Some people have been watching for decades, and haven't forgotten what we have seen, no matter how the media suddenly portrays her as their sweet "Darling."

They have been playing dirty for years and we always buckled under and played by "the rules".  Remember Romney humiliating that idiot Obama in the first debate?  The next one he backed off like a good RINO and made the idiot look good.   Trump is crass and rude and does things that are questionable but he gets in the democrat mud with them and fights dirty.  He knows the press will NEVER give him a break, no matter what he does.   They loved McCain till he ran against their guy and then they didn't. 

F'em, treat them like the trashy, pompous, sycophants they are and hammer them.   Acosta's book is a dud, Don Lemon is a meme for the nutty left (remember MH370went into a black hole) and Maddow's ratings have dropped precipitously since Mueller dropped his garbage report. 

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, and then said:

it has become a monolithic representative of a single "side" or Party.

FOX news is the most watched cable news channel, bigger than CNN, bigger than MSNBC and close to as big as the both put together.  A lot of their shows are conservative and support the President.  They do have a broader spectrum that the other networks though.  So one could argue that the most popular cable network is not all one sided, but has some balance.  I won't go so far as to say it is totally 50-50 % or  impartial.  but they broadcast partisans commentators and views from both sides.  

Sinclair Broadcasting is one of the largest radio station owners and is a conservative organization. 

Newspapers are another story.  There don't seem to be any large conservative ones, maybe because all of the big newspapers left are in large liberal cities. 

It may be telling that the most watched cable news network does present both sides on different shows.  Financially, it is a model that other networks might copy or get left further behind.  Maybe people are trying to get both sides of the story. 

 

[Harte]

1 hour ago, South Alabam said:

To tell the truth, we all know Trump isn't the best Republican that could have ran, but then again, when up against Hillary, I wasn't just going to give her the win. It was damned if we did, damed if we didn't and to me, Trump was the better choice. Hillary smashed blackberries, deleted 33,000 "soccer" mom emails, and used bleach bit on her drives all after getting subpoenaed from Congress for those items, then had the audacity to say that "Donald Trump obstructed justice." She has been around since the Watergate days, and those of us old enough have seen Forty-five years of this same kind of deception spew forth from her, or Bill. And this is why she is not Madame President. Some people have been watching for decades, and haven't forgotten what we have seen, no matter how the media suddenly portrays her as their sweet "Darling."

This cover for Obama's ridiculous Benghazi youtube story (made up in haste to save his re-election) was all I needed.

Quote

With all due respect, the fact is we had four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided that they’d they go kill some Americans? What difference at this point does it make?

I would have voted for Satan over Hillary after that, if I was forced to vote.

Harte

[RavenHawk]

33 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I won't go so far as to say it is totally 50-50 % or  impartial. 

From several reports that I have seen the MSM presents about 96% negative reports on Trump and FOX has 42%.