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Russia probes II -- The Mueller Report

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DieChecker
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

600 million dollars to support 50 000 people seems like a lot doesn't it?  That's $12,000 per person supplemental income per year.  Looking for more welfare recipients?

I dont think that is so much... if it includes law enforcement, fire response, and other infrastructure, like roads, internet, phone, water....

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Tatetopa
20 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

A recession would be bad for everyone. What I dont like is left leaning sites are so very happy/giddy about it.

"People are going to suffer!" YAY!!!

Any cost if it cuts Trump. :( Shady politics by the media if you ask me. Nothing wrong with being ready for it, but celebrating before it happens seems pretty petty to me.

You are so right on this.  If the ship sinks, we all end up underwater.  Staying in a good position, knowing where your life preserver is and how to get to the lifeboats is prudent, but causing problems is definitely  what? Sociopathic perhaps, wanting to see everybody in pain.

But both sides love to say "I told you so."

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Tatetopa
22 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I dont think that is so much... if it includes law enforcement, fire response, and other infrastructure, like roads, internet, phone, water.

Right again, and really, I don't think it is so much either..

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Earl.Of.Trumps
2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

A recession would be bad for everyone. What I dont like is left leaning sites are so very happy/giddy about it.

"People are going to suffer!" YAY!!!

Any cost if it cuts Trump. :( Shady politics by the media if you ask me. Nothing wrong with being ready for it, but celebrating before it happens seems pretty petty to me.

And with that said, DC, you better believe that the MSM will be bleating every little bump into being a mountain. Dare I say they may even fabricate news on economic woes...? Ya, I dare. they will :P

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Hammerclaw

For the most part, Trump didn't get elected by getting people to vote for him, personally, he got elected by getting people to vote against the other side. They're really making that even easier, this time. There's no personality cult around Trump. To have one of those, one must first have a personality.

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You are so right on this.  If the ship sinks, we all end up underwater.  Staying in a good position, knowing where your life preserver is and how to get to the lifeboats is prudent, but causing problems is definitely  what? Sociopathic perhaps, wanting to see everybody in pain.

But both sides love to say "I told you so."

Thins it @Tatetopa, I get the impression that the Democrats and the Progressives would happily see America burn, if it means increasing the probability that Trump does NOT win the next election ! They have long since become monomaniacal on the issue.  

"It is better that we tear down our house and destroy america rather than have another 4 years of Donald Trump. Because he will tear down our house and destroy American... ummm..... "

Edited by RoofGardener
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Farmer77
Just now, RoofGardener said:

Thins it @Tatetopa, I get the impression that the Democrats and the Progressives would happily see America burn, if it means increasing the probability that Trump does NOT win the next election ! They have long since become monomaniacal on the issue.  

I would argue theyre not happy that America is burning NOW.

So yes while the optics are bad there certainly is some relief that an issue which cant be lied about and hidden by the administration or ignored by an apathetic society is coming to fruition..... as predicted.

 

 

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I would argue theyre not happy that America is burning NOW.

So yes while the optics are bad there certainly is some relief that an issue which cant be lied about and hidden by the administration or ignored by an apathetic society is coming to fruition..... as predicted.

Oh come come @Farmer77. In what way - precisely - is America burning now ? 

Now, the Amazon... THAT'S burning. But not America. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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Farmer77
Just now, RoofGardener said:

Oh come come @Farmer77. In what way - precisely - is America burning now ? 

Dude youre kind of a godsend. Its my second night shift and I didnt sleep at ALL today thanks to my kid setting off the smoke detector so im struggling to stay awake and this has been a nice time seep. You asked so now sit down and read it all!!!! LOL....

I guess start with government

The Long, Slow Destruction of the U.S. Government

Republicans block election security efforts despite Mueller's warnings

Trump sides with Putin over US intelligence

On Venezuela, Trump sides with Putin over his own team

Of course central to the overall attack on American society is the celebration of and dependence upon ignorance (which frankly is such a repeated theme throughout history the fact that folks cant see it is kinda amusing in a "we're gonna get what we deserve" kinda way)

Trump administration's 'scientific oppression' threatens US safety and innovation Again this is a good op ed but if you can stifle the politics long enough to follow the links to the hard data its worth your time. Like this one: Agriculture Department buries studies showing dangers of climate change

Then move to the economy. Tax cuts for the rich and risky lending practices have always ended up in the same result . Not to mention the idiotic trade wars and his either lack of understanding of how tariffs work or his organized campaign of lies about how they work.

Trump's Trade Wars Are Hurting Midwest Farmers, Banks, And State Coffers

68% Of Trump’s Farm Bailout Goes To Richest 10%

As U.S. watchdog retreats, mortgage firms reprise cozy marketing arrangements

74% of economists in survey see US recession by end of 2021

 

Of course theres the environment which im sure you dont care about but honestly has been so horrific ive tried to ignore it but here are a couple of highlights

Trump Administration Casually Admits Coal Plan Will Kill 1,400 Americans a Year  Seriously we would bomb the **** out of anyone who told us they were going to kill 1400 Americans AT ALL let alone annually!

EPA clears path for proposed copper and gold mine near Alaska’s Bristol Bay 

Trump Is Angry That Automakers Don't Want His Anti-Climate Change Policy

The assault on truth in general is one that will be hard for America to ever overcome, if she can at all.

Conway: Trump White House offered 'alternative facts' on crowd size

Trump to veterans: Don’t believe what you’re reading or seeing

President Trump has made 10,796 false or misleading claims over 869 days 

Then move into the race baiting and the non stop drive to create, foment and maximize on division as well as the increasing appearance of government approval of white supremacy

Donald Trump Refuses to Condemn KKK, Disavow David Duke Endorsement

Trump's attacks on Judge Curiel are still jarring to read

Justice Department Sent White Nationalist Blog Post to Immigration Court Employees: Report

 

 

Perhaps the most dangerous tool in that attack on truth is the conspiracy theory

From birtherism to racist tweets: Trump's history of inflaming racial tensions

Trump’s bizarre attempt to defend retweeting an Epstein conspiracy theory

How Trump's paranoia and conspiracy theories become US policy

Report: Trump commission did not find widespread voter fraud and yet here he is two years later:  Yet again, Trump falsely blames illegal voting for getting walloped in California

His ignorance of how America works is insanely dangerous for a man who is currently leading America . Of course it is always possible, if not likely,  that its feigned ignorance

Trump again says he's looking 'seriously' at birthright citizenship despite 14th Amendment

WH officials look at executive privilege for Lewandowski, who never worked at the White House

Report: 60+ Court Decisions Have Ruled Trump Policies Unconstitutional

Quote

While Trump himself has lambasted Democratic-appointed judges and the 9th Circuit Court specifically as being a “big thorn” in his administration’s side, the analysis shows that he’s losing in districts across the country, and that Republican-appointed judges are also ruling against him.

The complete lack of empathy and the celebration and promotion of those who are the same are something that has only cemented the legacy of Abu Ghraib in the minds of so many around the world and has helped lead to a complete loss of "soft power"

Trump official tells court detained children don't need beds, soap or toothbrushes

Trump bypasses Congress to push through arms sales to Saudis, UAE

No its not a single smoking gun "look this singular event happened" scenario your pedantic brain would like  but it is reality and the havoc being wrought by this regime will take generations to recover from if at all.

 

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Harte
7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Right again, and really, I don't think it is so much either..

The costs would probably be higher because you'd need a lot of heavy coats.

Harte

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DieChecker
5 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

 

No its not a single smoking gun "look this singular event happened" scenario your pedantic brain would like  but it is reality and the havoc being wrought by this regime will take generations to recover from if at all.

I've seen similar lists. They were about Obama. And Bush. And Clinton....

I'm not convinced he's so much worse then any of them.

It's the same rhetoric, just different links and different pundits spewing it.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

For the most part, Trump didn't get elected by getting people to vote for him, personally, he got elected by getting people to vote against the other side.

True that, hammer. I just can't believe that people were so willing to elect that life long criminal that was caught doing two despicable things in her run for the office - cheating against Bernie for the party nomination, and having the illegal server in her home. And exacerbating all that, Hilary would be dragging her serial rapist husband back into the white house with her. 

And she still damn near WON!  What's wrong with the Clinton supporters in this country. They want more young white house aids diddled in the oval office again? :(

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Earl.Of.Trumps

@Farmer77, my god, can you keep it under 10,000 words? yikes. I only have so much time for internet.

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Tatetopa
11 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Thins it @Tatetopa, I get the impression that the Democrats and the Progressives would happily see America burn, if it means increasing the probability that Trump does NOT win the next election ! They have long since become monomaniacal on the issue.  

"It is better that we tear down our house and destroy america rather than have another 4 years of Donald Trump. Because he will tear down our house and destroy American... ummm..... "

I will disagree with this characterization as a contrivance of both the Right and the Left to vilify those who do not share their interpretations of America.

Both sides love America, even though they may see it in different ways.  

Both love the ideals this country was founded on, freedom for the individual, equality, and justice.  Each side takes a different view of how that shapes up. 

For many liberals, freedom for the individual is seen in the context of a strong unifying social contract.  Personal responsibility is one of the most important character traits, but liberals do not always see that in the behavior of corporations, or with some individuals.  Yet we try to leave no one behind as our society progresses. Some of us do not have a close association with a Western deity and believe that rich people and poor people are not artifacts of Gods favor or displeasure. 

For some liberals, equality means all humans, all colors, all sexes.  We are free in our social interactions, it is none of our business what others choose to do in their bedrooms or their wombs as long as they respect our own sanctity.  We live within a government and social contract that focuses on interpersonal rights and actions not enforcing a concept of morals on all.

For some liberals justice means equal justice for all individuals not predicated on wealth, color of skin, or ethnic origins.

Even some who appear quite radical hold most of those values.  AOC believes that her new green deal is a way to ensure the survival and prosperity of the nation and all its children.  Others in the that group want the United States to be true to the principles written in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as it is understood in modern times that ALL men are created equal without the asterisk that might have been there 250 years ago: " * we mean all white men:  not women, not slaves, not Indians, not non-Chriatians."  It was not written to exclude those groups though there might have been a tacit understanding at the time to do so.  The words have not changed, but liberals broaden those words to include all people, all citizens of the United States have equal rights and guarantees. Liberals might go a step further and say that as a nation we should treat all people and other nations in the world as having rights and guarantees.

Many liberals are seriously concerned about many of the practices of the current president, as they see those practices violating the  principles they believe make the United States exceptional. .  They definitely want him out, but not at any cost.  The patient ones know that we will survive this even if it lasts 8 years.

 

 

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Harte
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I will disagree with this characterization as a contrivance of both the Right and the Left to vilify those who do not share their interpretations of America.

I agree that the characterization is hyperbolic, but will say that it is stated thusly to make a point by overemphasis - i.e. reductio ad absurdum.

Quote

Both sides love America, even though they may see it in different ways.  

Both love the ideals this country was founded on, freedom for the individual, equality, and justice.  Each side takes a different view of how that shapes up. 

For many liberals, freedom for the individual is seen in the context of a strong unifying social contract.  Personal responsibility is one of the most important character traits, but liberals do not always see that in the behavior of corporations, or with some individuals.  Yet we try to leave no one behind as our society progresses. Some of us do not have a close association with a Western deity and believe that rich people and poor people are not artifacts of Gods favor or displeasure. 

I see these two things as in conflict with each other, i.e., cognitive dissonance.

Quote

For some liberals, equality means all humans, all colors, all sexes.  We are free in our social interactions, it is none of our business what others choose to do in their bedrooms or their wombs as long as they respect our own sanctity.  We live within a government and social contract that focuses on interpersonal rights and actions not enforcing a concept of morals on all.

Surely you don't mean to imply that Conservatives are not for equality here.

And I'd like to point out the uncomfortable fact that wombs are often occupied.. Those occupants, too, are individuals that are also entitled to interpersonal rights and equality.

Quote

For some liberals justice means equal justice for all individuals not predicated on wealth, color of skin, or ethnic origins.

Justice is not predicated on skin color or ethnicity. It IS, however, predicated on wealth.

Not hard to find members of ethnic minorities that received better outcomes from the justice system because they had the money to hire Johnny Cochran or whoever.

If as you say, personal responsibility is an important character trait to Liberals, then why do they attempt to argue a racial bias in the Justice system with statistics, rather than by examining cases?

Quote

Even some who appear quite radical hold most of those values.  AOC believes that her new green deal is a way to ensure the survival and prosperity of the nation and all its children.

Whatever this bartender may prefer to believe, her "deal" would bring absolutely nothing but misery to the country and eventually the planet. Misery on a scale heretofore unseen.

Quote

Others in the that group want the United States to be true to the principles written in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution as it is understood in modern times that ALL men are created equal without the asterisk that might have been there 250 years ago: " * we mean all white men:  not women, not slaves, not Indians, not non-Chriatians."  It was not written to exclude those groups though there might have been a tacit understanding at the time to do so.  The words have not changed, but liberals broaden those words to include all people, all citizens of the United States have equal rights and guarantees. Liberals might go a step further and say that as a nation we should treat all people and other nations in the world as having rights and guarantees.

And I say that is a cynical move for a voting population and absolutely nothing else. At least, among governing Liberals.

Individuals might think or believe many odd and illogical things, and more power to them. But you can't govern me that way.

Quote

Many liberals are seriously concerned about many of the practices of the current president, as they see those practices violating the  principles they believe make the United States exceptional. .  They definitely want him out, but not at any cost.  The patient ones know that we will survive this even if it lasts 8 years.

Liberals actually believe that America is NOT exceptional. That's Modern Liberalism in a nutshell. Like you, I miss the old Liberals.

Also, I think any concerns about Trump are about his mannerisms and goofy rhetoric. He hasn't made any executive moves that are particularly galling to an ordinary person, Liberal or Conservative.

Harte

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Farmer77
6 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@Farmer77, my god, can you keep it under 10,000 words? yikes. I only have so much time for internet.

LOL sorry for taking the bandwidth I really wasnt kidding man I was freaking STRUGGLING to stay awake last night so Roofies challenge provided a nice distraction

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Farmer77
9 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I've seen similar lists. They were about Obama. And Bush. And Clinton....

I'm not convinced he's so much worse then any of them.

It's the same rhetoric, just different links and different pundits spewing it.

I initially laughed at your comment but this level of willful ignorance  has moved past laughable into just sad.

 

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, Harte said:

I see these two things as in conflict with each other, i.e., cognitive dissonance.

Lots of thoughtful topics for discussion.  I will limit to what I was thinking when I wrote about:  personal responsibility and leave no one behind.

The company I work for is small, still owned by a group of individuals so they can act in ways a big corp can't.   We require a lot of consumable supplies to process castings, some of them are made from a few components.  Our owners have focused on a few companies that hire and train disabled veterans or handicapped people to construct our supplies.  It gives those people a chance to do something meaningful with their time and contribute to their own upkeep.  They never get rich, and likely they need to be subsidized to assure they have adequate housing, food, clothing  and transportation. They do what they can and I am proud of our owners for taking this approach to assist.  I am proud of our local and national governments to see that these people don't starve or freeze.

We also send some heavy machine work top the state prison.  They have a program to teach inmates a marketable skill, separate them from the influences that got them in trouble, and help find them a job to keep them from coming back We have hired a couple of those folks into our work force.  I will say that they are more motivated to show up and stay clean than the average high schooler.

Our education system sucks.  It is not of uniform quality, and it teaches individuals an insufficient amount to be successful in life upon high school graduation.  Some people go on to college and some don't, few know what skills they need or how to apply them.  This is an area that I think would help our society.  Kids need to be taught how to become adults.  Sometimes parents don't provide enough because they don't know enough.  To break that cycle, somebody need to teach personal hygiene, human biology, how to budget money, how to pay bills and have a bank account among other things.

 Humans are born with a wide range of physical and mental capacities.  Personality and will are not locked to intelligence level.  A society as wealthy in resources and technology as ours can at least offer all citizens the ability to learn to perform at their own level and a society as caring and humane as ours can help them be members of our society at their level of performance and not excommunicate them from being Americans.

Some people make it, some people don't.  Putting people in community housing, giving them food money and ignoring them is not helping either them or our society.

 

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Harte
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Lots of thoughtful topics for discussion.  I will limit to what I was thinking when I wrote about:  personal responsibility and leave no one behind.

The company I work for is small, still owned by a group of individuals so they can act in ways a big corp can't.   We require a lot of consumable supplies to process castings, some of them are made from a few components.  Our owners have focused on a few companies that hire and train disabled veterans or handicapped people to construct our supplies.  It gives those people a chance to do something meaningful with their time and contribute to their own upkeep.  They never get rich, and likely they need to be subsidized to assure they have adequate housing, food, clothing  and transportation. They do what they can and I am proud of our owners for taking this approach to assist.  I am proud of our local and national governments to see that these people don't starve or freeze.

That's nice. Really.

Check and see if your company gets a tax break for this.

Also, disabled people are hardly lacking in personal responsibility.

Quote

We also send some heavy machine work top the state prison.  They have a program to teach inmates a marketable skill, separate them from the influences that got them in trouble, and help find them a job to keep them from coming back We have hired a couple of those folks into our work force.  I will say that they are more motivated to show up and stay clean than the average high schooler.

You are most certainly correct about that. And your company probably pays less for the work done as well.

Quote

Our education system sucks.  It is not of uniform quality, and it teaches individuals an insufficient amount to be successful in life upon high school graduation.  Some people go on to college and some don't, few know what skills they need or how to apply them.  This is an area that I think would help our society.  Kids need to be taught how to become adults.  Sometimes parents don't provide enough because they don't know enough.  To break that cycle, somebody need to teach personal hygiene, human biology, how to budget money, how to pay bills and have a bank account among other things.

I'm in those trenches everyday, teaching math in an urban public high school setting. I'm tired of people blaming schools for these failures. It's a societal problem, not schools. You are right that kids need to be taught how to become an adult (in other words, they need parenting.) Schools are not set up to do parenting, the kids are almost completely out of control, and the Feds have imposed a cookie cutter system on us with this stupid standardized testing. Every student is assessed on the state tests, and often the very survival of the school district is on the line. You can see how this leaves no room even for real vocational training, much less attempts at parenting.

In high school here, it takes 4 weeks to complete the testing. That usually means 4 weeks with no instruction, meaning we can't even cover the curriculum tested on the state tests in full. And even at that, they don't wait until the last 4 weeks to assess, so that's even more material we don't touch before the test. And after the test, neither the teachers nor the students are motivated to go any further.

Quote

 Humans are born with a wide range of physical and mental capacities.  Personality and will are not locked to intelligence level.  A society as wealthy in resources and technology as ours can at least offer all citizens the ability to learn to perform at their own level and a society as caring and humane as ours can help them be members of our society at their level of performance and not excommunicate them from being Americans.

Some people make it, some people don't.  Putting people in community housing, giving them food money and ignoring them is not helping either them or our society.

My own son is 100% disabled due to his autism. He couldn't tell you the difference between a penny and a million dollars. His high school "education" consisted of trying to copy words and doing coloring books.

His success was measured in part on whether he could stop biting and spitting on people.

When I'm gone, there is literally no place he can go but a state institution, unless a family member steps up.

He will be locked in a padded cell the rest of his life, even though he cracks jokes and sings songs with words changed around to amuse himself. He is constantly having fun and laughing about my stupid teasing of him about naughty and nice, Santa and Krampus. He's 20 years old.

There is no community housing with food money in his future.

And I'm STILL a Conservative.

Harte

 

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Farmer77
1 hour ago, Harte said:

And I'm STILL a Conservative.

Harte

Man after b****ing about how conservatives have made your work life miserable, and how the conservative mindset is going to leave your son much worse off than he otherwise could be im not sure whether to applaud you for sticking to your values despite the real world consequences or mock you for not being able to learn from those real world consequences.

Either way that post was very telling.

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, Harte said:

I'm in those trenches everyday, teaching math in an urban public high school setting. I'm tired of people blaming schools for these failures. It's a societal problem, not schools. You are right that kids need to be taught how to become an adult (in other words, they need parenting.) Schools are not set up to do parenting,

I can only wish you the best.  I will say if it is any consolation that I do not blame schools or teachers, I loved several of my High School teachers and still am most  grateful to Mr. Wolf, my high school physics and calculus teacher, 40 years later.  

I don't think it is a teacher problem but a bureaucracy and goal problem, with standardized testing measuring against what might be poorly conceived goals high among them.  I honor you for your effort.

And by the way, I do know that the company gets some incentives, but a lot of companies don't bother so people that do are high on my list.  It is more than a way to save a buck.

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DieChecker
10 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

I initially laughed at your comment but this level of willful ignorance  has moved past laughable into just sad.

Ignorance is based on a societal standard. I dont see people jumping all over themselves defending your posts, or even liking them.

Perhaps a good look in the mirror is due?

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Farmer77
12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Ignorance is based on a societal standard. I dont see people jumping all over themselves defending your posts, or even liking them.

Perhaps a good look in the mirror is due?

Did you really just pull an appeal to popularity over the term ignorance????

Holy crap that post was so absurd ive been at a loss for words as to how to respond :lol:

I guess ill go back to the willfull part amigo. Lie to yourself all you want but im gonna go ahead and call you out when you try it in a post to me :tu:

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