Worldwide Walls

[+OverSword]

Just now, Setton said:

Can you provide a quote? Because they're not in the article I get from the OP link. 

Is there a bug up your butt today?  Look at post #9

[Setton]

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Is there a bug up your butt today?  Look at post #9

Yeah, I've finally had it with the American right's alternative facts (lies) and their complete refusal to consider anything else. 

1. OP means original post. #9 is not the OP. 

2. None of those examples demonstrate the claim 'walls are good for stopping illegal migrants'. 

[RavenHawk]

8 minutes ago, Setton said:

Yeah, I've finally had it with the American right's alternative facts (lies) and their complete refusal to consider anything else.

Wow!  Just completely opposite from reality.  You shouldn’t talk about alt facts.  Who says we don’t consider anything else.  Do we have to notify you first before we do?  Perhaps we’re intelligent enough to figure it out for ourselves??

 

1. OP means original post. #9 is not the OP. 

#9 supports the OP.

 

2. None of those examples demonstrate the claim 'walls are good for stopping illegal migrants'. 

Really?  Not even the sheer number of them?  If that were not true, do you think there would be that many fences going up?  Someone (in fact many someones) thinks they are good.

[Farmer77]

7 hours ago, Setton said:

Yeah, I've finally had it with the American right's alternative facts (lies) and their complete refusal to consider anything else. 

Its pretty ****ing astounding

[Setton]

8 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

Wow!  Just completely opposite from reality.  You shouldn’t talk about alt facts.  Who says we don’t consider anything else.  Do we have to notify you first before we do? 

Thank you for illustrating so perfectly. 

Quote

Perhaps we’re intelligent enough to figure it out for ourselves??

Based on your posts on this forum, doubtful. 

Quote

#9 supports the OP.

 

 

Really?  Not even the sheer number of them?  If that were not true, do you think there would be that many fences going up?  Someone (in fact many someones) thinks they are good.

Appeal to popularity. Very common logical fallacy. 

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Appeal to popularity. Very common logical fallacy. 

Umm... that doesn't normally apply at governmental level ? Spain didn't put up its border walls with Morocco because the idea of walls was popular, but because they WORK. The same is true of the 2700Km Moroccan wall in the Saharah

[Farmer77]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

  The same is true of the 2700Km Moroccan wall in the Saharah

Dude a 9 foot tall  unattended sand berm isnt stopping anyone. Its the WORLDS LARGEST MINEFIELD behind it that works.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Farmer77

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Dude a 9 foot tall  unattended sand berm isnt stopping anyone. Its the WORLDS LARGEST MINEFIELD behind it that works.

Well, the Moroccans obviously think it works, otherwise they would just have planted a minefield, with no wall  

But it's not JUST minefields. They have observation posts every 5Km, with armed troops, and a series of rapid reaction forces a few miles back. 

Oh.. and radars. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Western_Sahara_Wall

It's been up for almost 30 years, so the Moroccans must be happy with it ? 

[Farmer77]

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

It's been up for almost 30 years, so the Moroccans must be happy with it ? 

From your link:

Thats a hill roofie not a wall

[RoofGardener]

Looks like a roller-coaster ! 

[RoofGardener]

Here's another shot of the Moroccan wall. 

Notice how the would-be terrorist/immigrant is COMPLETELY foxed by the insurmountable Wall Of Flowers !

Clever Moroccans !

[Farmer77]

11 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Here's another shot of the Moroccan wall. 

Notice how the would-be terrorist/immigrant is COMPLETELY foxed by the insurmountable Wall Of Flowers !

Clever Moroccans !

Flower power! ..............that normally has a different meaning around my house

[RavenHawk]

48 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

From your link:

 

Thats a hill roofie not a wall

It's still a wall.  It's not as obtrusive as one we would need on our southern border (for obvious reasons).

[RavenHawk]

46 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Here's another shot of the Moroccan wall. 

Notice how the would-be terrorist/immigrant is COMPLETELY foxed by the insurmountable Wall Of Flowers !

Clever Moroccans !

Reminds me of the scene in the 2016 version of the Magnificent Seven where the children had made red-painted pinwheels and they were used as a marker where the explosives were planted.

[Setton]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm... that doesn't normally apply at governmental level ? Spain didn't put up its border walls with Morocco because the idea of walls was popular, but because they WORK. The same is true of the 2700Km Moroccan wall in the Saharah

The fallacy is in saying that because lots of countries do it, it must be effective. 

To claim it is effective, you should have data to support. 

[RavenHawk]

7 hours ago, Setton said:

Thank you for illustrating so perfectly.

You’re welcome.  Anything to illustrate your idiocy.

 

Based on your posts on this forum, doubtful. 

Then you don’t comprehend too well.

 

Appeal to popularity. Very common logical fallacy. 

Let’s see… 2+2=4, I hear is pretty popular.  So too when it rains, things get wet that are outside in the open.  Yeah, I can see how those are fallacies.

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

The fallacy is in saying that because lots of countries do it, it must be effective. 

To claim it is effective, you should have data to support. 

Hmmm.. true perhaps. However, the fact that a lot of countries DO do it, over a period of many decades, suggests that it DOES work. After all, Country A is hardly likely to think "I know.. lets do what Country B did 20 years ago and build a wall. After all, it failed utterly for THEM, so perhaps it will succeed for US ? "

[aztek]

if walls do not work, why do we put doors in them? 

[RavenHawk]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

The fallacy is in saying that because lots of countries do it, it must be effective. 

To claim it is effective, you should have data to support. 

That’s not a fallacy.  Granted, it is not always smart to do something just because someone else does it.  But there are times when that is legitimate.  What data do you want?  The number of hordes that the wall stops?  you realize that is a fallacy??  There is no way to tell how many it stops.  A wall isn’t just effective at turning people away physically, but also, if they know the wall is there, it stops them from even trying to get there.  There are also several reasons to erect a wall.  You don’t wait until after a war starts to build one.  Walls make for good neighbors.  Walls are based more on human nature rather than data.  That stat alone supports a wall.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmmm.. true perhaps. However, the fact that a lot of countries DO do it, over a period of many decades, suggests that it DOES work. After all, Country A is hardly likely to think "I know.. lets do what Country B did 20 years ago and build a wall. After all, it failed utterly for THEM, so perhaps it will succeed for US ? "

It means people THINK they work. It means they are comforting and popular with people. Neither of those is proof of efficacy. 

59 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

That’s not a fallacy.  Granted, it is not always smart to do something just because someone else does it.  But there are times when that is legitimate. 

The definition of the 'appeal to popularity' fallacy is that because something is popular, it must be true. Your argument is therefore a perfect example of this fallacy. 

Quote

What data do you want?  The number of hordes that the wall stops?  you realize that is a fallacy??  There is no way to tell how many it stops. 

Of course there is. Numbers of illegal migrants before and after building a wall would be a good dataset to back up your argument. 

As you say, there are lots of walls around the world. You should be able to find some data from them to analyse. 

Quote

Walls make for good neighbors.  Walls are based more on human nature rather than data.  That stat alone supports a wall.

Again, all this shows is that we like them. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they work. 

Seriously, just present some data showing they do work. You'd have a huge advantage over your political opponents. Just chanting 'walls work' doesn't really work with anyone who hasn't already bought in. 

[RavenHawk]

36 minutes ago, Setton said:

It means people THINK they work. It means they are comforting and popular with people. Neither of those is proof of efficacy.

People in general may THINK they work and then there are those in-the-know that KNOWS they work.  In either case, walls are comforting and popular.  That is hardly a fallacy.  That is a legitimate purpose for a wall.

 

The definition of the 'appeal to popularity' fallacy is that because something is popular, it must be true. Your argument is therefore a perfect example of this fallacy. 

And if it is true then it is not a fallacy.  Multiple nations would not be putting up walls if it is just comforting and popular.  There’s another fallacy of being too much in love with pointing out fallacies so that you don’t have to confront the issues.

 

Of course there is. Numbers of illegal migrants before and after building a wall would be a good dataset to back up your argument. 

Well, I have to admit that is a good point, but a minor one.  Where am I going to get those numbers?  If they were available, don’t you think @RoofGardener would have posted links?  If they are published somewhere then that sounds like something up your alley.  For many countries, those numbers are matters of national security.  But I don’t need to know the numbers.  I know that the leadership of each country knows the numbers and they continue to build walls.  That tells me they are effective.  Even if you think that there is some massive plot to fool the people of each nation separately, it’s leaders see that the people are comforted by their actions to defend their people.  And that is the key issue.  Now, we just need to get the Progressives in this nation to be as concerned about their own people.

 

As you say, there are lots of walls around the world. You should be able to find some data from them to analyse. 

If you are so hung up on data, then you go find the data and analyze it.  I’ll trust you.  Just because I personally do not have the data does not mean that my analysis of the situation is not substantiated.  As I said, I’m looking at this from human nature, not just data.  If there is nothing to stop me, I’m going to cross the border.  That’s a hard-cold fact.  And where there is one, there are many others.  That is human nature.

 

Again, all this shows is that we like them. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they work. 

I can’t see people liking them if they didn’t work.

 

Seriously, just present some data showing they do work. You'd have a huge advantage over your political opponents. Just chanting 'walls work' doesn't really work with anyone who hasn't already bought in. 

If you’re the skeptical one, then go collect the data from every nation that has a wall.  I have a feeling that no matter what the data says, you’d twist it to show that walls don’t work because they are comforting and popular.  So I have to wonder why you want me to present data?  I am not so inclined to go out of my way to seek the data out.  I don’t need to.  I know what I’ll find.  Now don’t get me wrong.  I think seeing the numbers would be nice to have but I’m perfectly willing to wait for someone else to publish them.  Seeing the data is just as counter-intuitive and counter-productive.  Don't you think that for someone like you, that seeing the data would be comforting?

[Setton]

29 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

Where am I going to get those numbers?  If they were available, don’t you think @RoofGardener would have posted links?  If they are published somewhere then that sounds like something up your alley

I'd start with Google if I were you. 

It is right up my alley but, unfortunately, I don't work for free and get paid quite well for my analysis. 

Unless you're offering..? 

31 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

If you are so hung up on data, then you go find the data and analyze it.  I’ll trust you.  Just because I personally do not have the data does not mean that my analysis of the situation is not substantiated.  As I said, I’m looking at this from human nature, not just data. 

But if you're going to claim walls work, not just they would work on you, you really need to be able to back that up objectively. 

32 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

If you’re the skeptical one, then go collect the data from every nation that has a wall. 

Ah-ah nice try but still not going to work for free. Remember, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. I have not made any claim but you have claimed walls stop illegal migrants entering a country. 

[RavenHawk]

8 minutes ago, Setton said:

I'd start with Google if I were you.

Be my guest.

 

It is right up my alley but, unfortunately, I don't work for free and get paid quite well for my analysis. 

Nice excuse.  Consider it expanding your craft then.

 

Unless you're offering..? 

Not one bit.  But I do remember seeing something about the number for Israel’s walls.  The numbers had dropped drastically.  Don’t recall where it was??  You can start there.

 

But if you're going to claim walls work, not just they would work on you, you really need to be able to back that up objectively. 

I did.  If you have an open border, human nature is such that people *WILL* cross.  That is just basic understanding.  That’s not just me.

 

Ah-ah nice try but still not going to work for free.

If you don’t do it, no one else will.  It doesn’t bother me.  I understand the scope already.

 

Remember, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.

Granted, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim.  But proof is more than just the numbers. 

 

I have not made any claim

You are making a claim too.  You’re making the claim that some element of grammatical logic applies to a specific situation and it simply does not.  A wall is comforting and popular because it works.  It is effective because others are seeing that it is effective and they are trying it.  Don’t need the numbers to prove that it is effective (or the general public does not need to know the numbers). 

 

but you have claimed walls stop illegal migrants entering a country. 

I think it was Acosta’s stunt that backfired that showed how well walls work.

[aztek]

geez are people that stupid, we build walls for thousands of years cuz  they work, we do not build square wheels, because they do not work. 

[RoofGardener]

14 hours ago, Setton said:

It means people THINK they work. It means they are comforting and popular with people. Neither of those is proof of efficacy. 

The definition of the 'appeal to popularity' fallacy is that because something is popular, it must be true. Your argument is therefore a perfect example of this fallacy. 

Of course there is. Numbers of illegal migrants before and after building a wall would be a good dataset to back up your argument. 

As you say, there are lots of walls around the world. You should be able to find some data from them to analyse. 

Again, all this shows is that we like them. It doesn't have anything to do with whether they work. 

Seriously, just present some data showing they do work. You'd have a huge advantage over your political opponents. Just chanting 'walls work' doesn't really work with anyone who hasn't already bought in. 

Well, the most highly publicised and most recent data comes from Israel. In 2012 they had 55,000 illegal economic migrants from poophole African countries flooding their southern borders. This was causing massive crime problems.

In 2015 they build a wall. Three years later, that illegal economic migrant figure is down to .. well.. .zero. The wall was 100% effective. Mind you, it WAS a very expensive wall. 

https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2018/december/trump-is-a-border-wall-effective-ask-israel

Figures for other countries are harder to analyse, but I'll give it a go over the next week or three. 

Edited April 25, 2019 by RoofGardener