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Donald Trump 'set for June state visit to UK'


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11 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

How do you think we'd have done without lend/lease what about the 1000s of American sailors who lost their lives delivering their much needed cargo.

 Without Lend-Lease you would not have done very well at all. But it cost you dearly. The US charged you for everything with interest and continued to collect the bill - in cash and kind - long after the war ended. In fact, the UK only finished paying up in 2006.

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28 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

Since this seems to have wandered off into a general attack on America, let's go back to Sadiq Khan. 

I really think there ought to be a rule that anyone with that level of ignorance should be disqualified from office.

 

And I don't mean Trump this time

Its telling that you had to qualify that.

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actually the whole point of led-lease was that it wasn't charged for, at least until the war was over. What was paid off after the war was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan.

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3 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Its telling that you had to qualify that.

I thought you might have recognized it as a joke.

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1 hour ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

actually the whole point of led-lease was that it wasn't charged for, at least until the war was over. What was paid off after the war was the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-American_loan.

That's true but still does not negate Setton's point.

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2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

 Without Lend-Lease you would not have done very well at all. But it cost you dearly. The US charged you for everything with interest and continued to collect the bill - in cash and kind - long after the war ended. In fact, the UK only finished paying up in 2006.

As Britain stood alone fighting against Fascism and tyranny, your government decided to sit it out, the History book records the FACT the greatest peril of the 20th century and the Republic of Ireland sat it out. Nations from the other side of the world combined to liberate and save Europe. and there was Ireland a country of Europe not even getting involved. if i was you i'd shut your mouth and get back in your box.

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3 hours ago, Setton said:

Which part of 'never spoke about it' so you find difficult? 

I dont know about there, but here there are plenty of records you can research to find out. Many are on-line if you are interested.

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32 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 if i was you i'd shut your mouth and get back in your box.

Nope. I won't be doing that. You need to be educated.

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9 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Nope. I won't be doing that. You need to be educated.

shut the lid.

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12 hours ago, Setton said:

Read the thread. I don't hate the US. I merely question the balance of our 'special relationship'. 

Apparently that equates to hatred. Clearly a partnership of equals. 

You have convinced yourself that the USA is parasitic.

All I can see in your posts is negativity after negativity after negativity about our closest ally.

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58 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

As Britain stood alone fighting against Fascism and tyranny, your government decided to sit it out, the History book records the FACT the greatest peril of the 20th century and the Republic of Ireland sat it out. Nations from the other side of the world combined to liberate and save Europe. and there was Ireland a country of Europe not even getting involved. if i was you i'd shut your mouth and get back in your box.

Its worse than that.

The ROI were in talks with the Nazis to open up a second front against the UK by attacking NI. And if that isn't bad enough they let Irish volunteers go across to the continent to fight for them. There was an Irish division of the SS and many of them were in the Wehrmacht too. While we often dont acknowledge it the fact remains there was a segment of Irish society both anti-British, pro-Nazi, who fought for Hitler.

Maybe this is why some of them are fanatically anti-Britain and pro-EU today?

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54 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

shut the lid.

Watch this space! 

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38 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Its worse than that.

The ROI were in talks with the Nazis to open up a second front against the UK by attacking NI. And if that isn't bad enough they let Irish volunteers go across to the continent to fight for them. There was an Irish division of the SS and many of them were in the Wehrmacht too. While we often dont acknowledge it the fact remains there was a segment of Irish society both anti-British, pro-Nazi, who fought for Hitler.

Maybe this is why some of them are fanatically anti-Britain and pro-EU today?

There is no truth to this at all! While there were those in Ireland - as indeed in Britain - who were favourable to the Nazis the government and the overwhelming majority in the  ROI was quite the opposite. Stop peddling WWII propaganda and learn some history

 

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16 hours ago, Setton said:

Still does not change the question - when has the US put its troops on the line to defend our interests? 

Sailors lives don't count?

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6 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

 Without Lend-Lease you would not have done very well at all. But it cost you dearly. The US charged you for everything with interest and continued to collect the bill - in cash and kind - long after the war ended. In fact, the UK only finished paying up in 2006.

Roosevelt, eager to ensure public consent for this controversial plan, explained to the public and the press that his plan was comparable to one neighbor's lending another a garden hose to put out a fire in his home. "What do I do in such a crisis?" the president asked at a press conference. "I don't say ... 'Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it' ... I don't want $15—I want my garden hose back after the fire is over."[46] To which Senator Robert Taft (R-Ohio), responded: "Lending war equipment is a good deal like lending chewing gum—you certainly don't want the same gum back."[47]

By sending us arms they terminated their stance on neutrality giving the Germans an excuse to attack American shipping and the Japanese a reason to bomb pearl harbor.

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5 hours ago, stevewinn said:

As Britain stood alone fighting against Fascism and tyranny, your government decided to sit it out, the History book records the FACT the greatest peril of the 20th century and the Republic of Ireland sat it out. Nations from the other side of the world combined to liberate and save Europe. and there was Ireland a country of Europe not even getting involved. if i was you i'd shut your mouth and get back in your box.

Irish neutrality during WW2 was not an exception among European countries - it was in fact the norm. the majority of countries in Europe were neutral at the outbreak of war and every single one of them acted entirely in their own self-interest. Every neutral European country that subsequently entered the war did so only after being invaded or attacked by an Allied or Axis state. The USA remained neutral until it had no other option following the attack by Japan on Pearl Harbour. England’s oldest ally, Portugal, remained neutral for the duration of the war. Neutrality was the preferred stance of all countries that had a choice in the matter.

Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to why Ireland, a small defenceless country with few resources, should, alone among the countries of Europe, have been expected to do what no other European country or the USA was prepared to do: i.e. declare war against the Axis when it did not face an imminent threat from it?
 

For the record these are the positions of every independent European nation (except the UK, France and Poland) at the outset of the conflict and subsequently (all bar those bolded only lost their neutrality after being invaded):-


· Albania – had been invaded by Italy in April 1939
· Andorra - neutral for duration of the war.
· Belgium – neutral until invaded by Germany in 1940
· Bulgaria – Axis ally from March ‘41
· Czechoslovakia – dismembered by Germany in 1938 into a number of puppet states.
· Denmark - neutral until invaded by Germany. Never declared war.
· Estonia – Neutral but gradually absorbed by USSR in stages between Sept. 1939 and 1940.
· Finland – Neutral until attacked by USSR in Nov ’39. Unsuccessfully sought protection from the UK
· Greece – neutral until attacked by Italy
· Hungary – Axis ally
· Iceland – Neutral until invaded by UK
· Latvia - Neutral but gradually absorbed by USSR in stages between Sept. 1939 and 1940
· Liechtenstein – neutral for duration of war.
· Lithuania - Neutral but gradually absorbed by USSR in stages between Sept. 1939 and 1940
· Luxembourg – neutral until invaded by Germany. Never declared war.
· Monaco – neutral until invaded by Italy.
· Netherlands - neutral until invaded by Germany in 1940
· Norway - neutral until invaded by Germany in 1940.
· Portugal - neutral for duration of the war.
· Romania – neutral until threatened by USSR when it joined the Axis.
· San Marino – ally of Italy from 1940 – declared war on UK.
· Spain – Officially neutral, but sympathetic to Nazis.
· Sweden – neutral for duration of the war.
· Switzerland – Neutral for duration of the war.
· Yugoslavia – Neutral until invaded by Axis powers in 1941.

Edited by Ozymandias
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27 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Roosevelt, eager to ensure public consent for this controversial plan, explained to the public and the press that his plan was comparable to one neighbor's lending another a garden hose to put out a fire in his home. "What do I do in such a crisis?" the president asked at a press conference. "I don't say ... 'Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it' ... I don't want $15—I want my garden hose back after the fire is over."[46] To which Senator Robert Taft (R-Ohio), responded: "Lending war equipment is a good deal like lending chewing gum—you certainly don't want the same gum back."[47]

By sending us arms they terminated their stance on neutrality giving the Germans an excuse to attack American shipping and the Japanese a reason to bomb pearl harbor.

So did Ireland. Our neutrality was pro-Allied and we compromised it in a myriad number of ways that we never got any thanks for at the time. It has only been with the release of the state papers of the period in recent years that the true facts have emerged but it is still difficult to overcome the impression laid by wartime propaganda against the ROI. You know, they a lie is half way round the world before the truth even gets out of bed.

Your own MI5 intelligence people recognised the truth over 70 years ago. The official History of the Irish Section of the (MI5) Security Service, written by Cecil Liddell in January 1946 and declassified in 1999, stated:

… it can be said that on the whole Eire’s neutrality was a ‘friendly’ neutrality …’ (p17) '… as things turned out Eire neutral was of more value to the British war effort than Eire belligerent would have been.’ (p.18)

 

Declassification and release of wartime papers clearly demonstrates this to have been the case.

 

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41 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Irish neutrality during WW2 was not an exception among European countries - it was in fact the norm. the majority of countries in Europe were neutral at the outbreak of war and every single one of them acted entirely in their own self-interest. Every neutral European country that subsequently entered the war did so only after being invaded or attacked by an Allied or Axis state. The USA remained neutral until it had no other option following the attack by Japan on Pearl Harbour. England’s oldest ally, Portugal, remained neutral for the duration of the war. Neutrality was the preferred stance of all countries that had a choice in the matter.

Can anyone offer a reasonable explanation as to why Ireland, a small defenceless country with few resources, should, alone among the countries of Europe, have been expected to do what no other European country or the USA was prepared to do: i.e. declare war against the Axis when it did not face an imminent threat from it?
 

For the record these are the positions of every independent European nation (except the UK, France and Poland) at the outset of the conflict and subsequently (all bar those bolded only lost their neutrality after being invaded):-


· Albania – had been invaded by Italy in April 1939
· Andorra - neutral for duration of the war.
· Belgium – neutral until invaded by Germany in 1940
· Bulgaria – Axis ally from March ‘41
· Czechoslovakia – dismembered by Germany in 1938 into a number of puppet states.
· Denmark - neutral until invaded by Germany. Never declared war.
· Estonia – Neutral but gradually absorbed by USSR in stages between Sept. 1939 and 1940.
· Finland – Neutral until attacked by USSR in Nov ’39. Unsuccessfully sought protection from the UK
· Greece – neutral until attacked by Italy
· Hungary – Axis ally
· Iceland – Neutral until invaded by UK
· Latvia - Neutral but gradually absorbed by USSR in stages between Sept. 1939 and 1940
· Liechtenstein – neutral for duration of war.
· Lithuania - Neutral but gradually absorbed by USSR in stages between Sept. 1939 and 1940
· Luxembourg – neutral until invaded by Germany. Never declared war.
· Monaco – neutral until invaded by Italy.
· Netherlands - neutral until invaded by Germany in 1940
· Norway - neutral until invaded by Germany in 1940.
· Portugal - neutral for duration of the war.
· Romania – neutral until threatened by USSR when it joined the Axis.
· San Marino – ally of Italy from 1940 – declared war on UK.
· Spain – Officially neutral, but sympathetic to Nazis.
· Sweden – neutral for duration of the war.
· Switzerland – Neutral for duration of the war.
· Yugoslavia – Neutral until invaded by Axis powers in 1941.

Like i said when the freedom of Europe was challenged Rep. Ireland decided not to act. Even when the full horrors were revealed and countries where falling like domino's. and as the greatest invasion was being planned by the allied forces to liberation Still nothing.

You post a list in the hope your country will be lost. But we all know you ahit out.

 

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8 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

Since this seems to have wandered off into a general attack on America, let's go back to Sadiq Khan. 

I really think there ought to be a rule that anyone with that level of ignorance should be disqualified from office.

 

And I don't mean Trump this time

His statement is one of many over the last two years that have been ridiculous hyperbole but no one seems to want to call them out.  Trump sets himself up for a lot of it by being thin-skinned but I really don't think this crowd would have behaved differently even if he didn't respond to them.  I've never seen anything like this level of animosity directed at one person so virulently or for so long.  Khan isn't ignorant.  Khan is just hateful.

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19 hours ago, Setton said:

Why should our men and women die for their interests

Is the United Kingdom considered to be energy independent?  Does the North Sea, for example, provide all you need?  How about the trade you do with other nations that might be seriously harmed by energy embargos that Iran's nutjob leaders decide to impose once they have Hegemony based on being a nuclear state?  I'd think such issues might be considered part of the UK's "interests".  

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10 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

what a pity you never seemed to take any interest to find out 

It is a shame.  That history is dying rapidly, now.  My father-in-law served on a destroyer escort off Iwo Jima and spoke of it occasionally.  He died in August of '17 and a few months before he passed, he told a tale from the war that he'd never mentioned previously.  I won't recount it all here but the date and location of the action make me reasonably sure that the recovery mission his vessel was involved in was for the bodies from the Indianapolis.  He told it once, just to me, and never spoke of it again.  

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My parents raised me to Respect Rank ,whether or not you like a person , this can be tough if you don't like your Boss ,but he has the last say ,and if you dis-respect him you're out of a job. Trump is currently the Leader of America ,and until he goes he must be respected as that , whether you do, or don't like him. 

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Just now, spud the mackem said:

My parents raised me to Respect Rank ,whether or not you like a person , this can be tough if you don't like your Boss ,but he has the last say ,and if you dis-respect him you're out of a job. Trump is currently the Leader of America ,and until he goes he must be respected as that , whether you do, or don't like him. 

I feel the same, Spud.  I admit that by the second year of Obama's term, I loathed that man and it gets worse as more info gets out about his administration but I didn't go online trashing him, attacking his kids or wife or pray for his Impeachment and removal.  I've never seen anything similar to this hysterical outpouring by the Left and their 5th column against anyone or anything else.  The great irony that his diligent opposition seems ignorant of is that the country is in a MUCH better place. With soaring confidence in the future and an economy that is nearing overheating, America hasn't been this hopeful for the future in decades.  

I have earnestly struggled to understand the concerns of the Left - of those who've been civil anyway - and I find 85 -90% of it to be hyperbole about his admittedly harsh and blunt personality when responding to them.  The other perspective of him that comes from everyone who actually meets him is that he's warm, gracious and funny.  I don't know which is true but when the media use the same words and phrases, consistently over multiple outlets, to smear and attack him daily I have to believe it's coordinated at some level and that concerns me deeply.

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5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

There is no truth to this at all! While there were those in Ireland - as indeed in Britain - who were favourable to the Nazis the government and the overwhelming majority in the  ROI was quite the opposite. Stop peddling WWII propaganda and learn some history

 

Firstly it is known that Ireland hid and helped Nazi war criminals escape at the end of WW2. Maybe it was a route Hitler used to make it to Argentina? Or maybe it was Franco Spain? Or maybe the Vatican?  Regardless of who helped the Fuhrer it is fact that Ireland hid and helped some of the worlds sickest people:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html

Next, Ireland was officially neutral but thousands of their young men fought for Britain (and got treated poorly when they returned for it) and thousands fought for Hitler. The IRA officially supported the Nazis. Here are a couple of websites I found:

http://www.markhumphrys.com/sfira.nazis.html 

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-soldier-who-fought-for-germany-dies-at-89-26819022.html

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