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Hanslune

Deep, deep history

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Hanslune

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/are-we-earths-only-civilization/557180/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share&fbclid=IwAR0DreRviYKj5ryN-2y79RzcIKktM4I4RzJzkl-skeW6MreGxlvLHwmaO7I

This is a non-woo look at how we would/could detect a Palocene non-human industrial civilization

 

Quote

It’s not often that you write a paper proposing a hypothesis that you don’t support. Gavin and I don’t believe the Earth once hosted a 50-million-year-old Paleocene civilization. But by asking if we could “see” truly ancient industrial civilizations, we were forced to ask about the generic kinds of impacts any civilization might have on a planet. That’s exactly what the astrobiological perspective on climate change is all about. Civilization building means harvesting energy from the planet to do work (i.e., the work of civilization building). Once the civilization reaches truly planetary scales, there has to be some feedback on the coupled planetary systems that gave it birth (air, water, rock). This will be particularly true for young civilizations like ours still climbing up the ladder of technological capacity. There is, in other words, no free lunch. While some energy sources will have lower impact—say solar vs. fossil fuels—you can’t power a global civilization without some degree of impact on the planet.

 

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Interesting theory, @Hanslune,  but just how can this all be detected?   According to your link, once you go past 2.6 million years there is nothing whatsoever left.

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Hanslune
3 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Interesting theory, @Hanslune,  but just how can this all be detected?   According to your link, once you go past 2.6 million years there is nothing whatsoever left.

I believe they were talking about older layers that are still on the surface. The older layers are still there just buried. We find dinosaur and even earlier fossils in much older layers. Stromatolites were discovered in metasedimentary rock in Greenland 3.7 billion year. old.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stromatolite

 

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jaylemurph

I hate to be picky, but history refers to the existence of written texts within a culture. It only goes back a few thousand years, a lot less time than the article is discussing. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Hanslune
42 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I hate to be picky, but history refers to the existence of written texts within a culture. It only goes back a few thousand years, a lot less time than the article is discussing. 

—Jaylemurph 

That's why its deep.

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Not A Rockstar

I find this very exciting, as I am intensely interested in the question of if there was a civilization (or several) before we came along.  That science is looking and defining what would have to be found if the answer is yes gives me more hope for a real answer, one way or the other.

I do have one question about the def of a civilization. This steps it out into being world wide, and I never heard that as a requirement before. Technically, could it not rise and fall on one continent and still be a civ? 

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Piney
44 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

That's why its deep.

It doesn't discuss the pollutants or alloys we would find in the geological record. There would be no hiding them.

My sister, a biologist also pointed out that many of the astrobiologist she met actually didn't understand the rules of biology.  

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Harte
1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

That's why its deep.

It's not only deep, it's deep, deep.

Yep. It's deep, and gettin' deeper.

Harte

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Piney
13 minutes ago, Harte said:

Yep. It's deep, and gettin' deeper.

They found high manganese steel in Cretaceous deposits? :unsure2:

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Piney said:

It doesn't discuss the pollutants or alloys we would find in the geological record. There would be no hiding them.

My sister, a biologist also pointed out that many of the astrobiologist she met actually didn't understand the rules of biology.  

Yeah an in our civilization's case, cut gems and misplaced fossils. I live in a place where lava might someday flow over my house. If so an archaeologist in 50,000,000 AD would find a layer with stone tools from a variety of materials and tools sets, pottery shards  and fossils from all kinds of eras. That would be magnificent confusion!

Edited by Hanslune
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Hanslune
3 hours ago, Not A Rockstar said:

I find this very exciting, as I am intensely interested in the question of if there was a civilization (or several) before we came along.  That science is looking and defining what would have to be found if the answer is yes gives me more hope for a real answer, one way or the other.

I do have one question about the def of a civilization. This steps it out into being world wide, and I never heard that as a requirement before. Technically, could it not rise and fall on one continent and still be a civ? 

You are correct the size of civilization doesn't need to be world wide but being wide spread might make it a lot easier to detect - we've been lucky to find a number of the current easiest sites.= Catal huyuck, GT and others.

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Piney
2 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yeah an in our civilizations case, cut gems and misplaced fossils. I live in a place where a lava might someday flow over my house. If so an archaeologist in 50,000,000 AD would find a layer with stone tools from a variety of materials and tools sets, pottery shards  and fossils from all kinds of eras. That would be magnificent confusion!

My Niece's home in O'ahu is the same way. Except Islands like that get worn down and wind up as seamounts. So they would find hundreds of rocks, fossils and various stone and metal artifacts from all over the U.S., Africa and Asia under water and lava. 

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Hanslune
Just now, Piney said:

My Niece's home in O'ahu is the same way. Except Islands like that get worn down and wind up as seamounts. So they would find hundreds of rocks, fossils and various stone and metal artifacts from all over the U.S., Africa and Asia under water and lava. 

Cascade mountains always ready to pop a cap in my vicinity.

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Piney
9 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Cascade mountains always ready to pop a cap in my vicinity.

:blink:  Better you than me. At least in Hawaii you have time to run

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Hanslune
Just now, Piney said:

:blink:  Better you than me. At least in Hawaii you have time to run

Yeah I lived in Hawaii for twenty great years. Use to love the oozing Kilauea volcano and I always try to visit when I return to the Big Island.

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Piney
7 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yeah I lived in Hawaii for twenty great years. Use to love the oozing Kilauea volcano and I always try to visit when I return to the Big Island.

My stepfather's family had some serious property in O'ahu, until the U.S. took it, gave it to Dole and threw them into a interment camp. 

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BorizBadinov

I live on the edge of the biggest caldera in north America. Running wont really be an option :lol: 

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Piney
5 minutes ago, BorizBadinov said:

I live on the edge of the biggest caldera in north America. Running wont really be an option :lol: 

Like I tell my stepmother. If I hear the boom I'll hold out a 5 gallon pail. Maybe I'll catch both your ashes. :yes:

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BorizBadinov

I figure if it goes its gonna get real cold for a while and I would rather go out in a flash :P

 

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Tatetopa

Its a good paper.  Thanks.  Don't tell Graham Hancock.

What would one of our cities leave behind in 50 million years?  A  lens of material  in sedimentary rock or under a lava flow maybe?   A few square miles of silica, iron oxides, aluminum oxides a scattering of copper, gold rare earths, diamonds, and other anomolies maybe?  No buildings, at least on earth, just a tell tale smear of non-natural agglomerations of elements.

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Hanslune
9 hours ago, Piney said:

My stepfather's family had some serious property in O'ahu, until the U.S. took it, gave it to Dole and threw them into a interment camp. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2015/03/16/393284680/in-hawaii-a-wwii-internment-camp-named-national-monument

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Its a good paper.  Thanks.  Don't tell Graham Hancock.

What would one of our cities leave behind in 50 million years?  A  lens of material  in sedimentary rock or under a lava flow maybe?   A few square miles of silica, iron oxides, aluminum oxides a scattering of copper, gold rare earths, diamonds, and other anomolies maybe?  No buildings, at least on earth, just a tell tale smear of non-natural agglomerations of elements.

 

Yeah, a thin layer that would be noticeably 'unnatural' with a mix of stuff that nature just couldn't produce or place all together, maybe long half-life radioactives too.

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Hanslune
7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Its a good paper.  Thanks.  Don't tell Graham Hancock.

What would one of our cities leave behind in 50 million years?  A  lens of material  in sedimentary rock or under a lava flow maybe?   A few square miles of silica, iron oxides, aluminum oxides a scattering of copper, gold rare earths, diamonds, and other anomolies maybe?  No buildings, at least on earth, just a tell tale smear of non-natural agglomerations of elements.

Given that we still see people believing GH's statement that the Piri Reis map shows Antarctica I suspect that people stating, as fact, that their was an invisible Native American civilization in NA - which left no traces - for decades to come. Oh the joy.

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Piney

@Hanslune  Yeah, but they left it covered up with plant life. Not too many know about it and there are no rangers or guides.

Here's where they were moved to.

https://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/the-story-behind-seabrook-s-japanese-american-population/article_b74b1eea-c120-5fc9-8664-7c56b14bd6fd.html

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flashman7870
On 4/24/2019 at 8:34 PM, Piney said:

It doesn't discuss the pollutants or alloys we would find in the geological record. There would be no hiding them.

My sister, a biologist also pointed out that many of the astrobiologist she met actually didn't understand the rules of biology.  

Who knows, maybe the OOPART folks aren't just finding lost spark plugs from 1955, and the ancient Anteater-Men made cars exactly like ours.

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Piney
2 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

Who knows, maybe the OOPART folks aren't just finding lost spark plugs from 1955, and the ancient Anteater-Men made cars exactly like ours.

If they were made like Chryslers it's probably why their civilizations collapsed. :o

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