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Waspie_Dwarf

Mystery of the Universe's Expansion Rate

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Waspie_Dwarf

Mystery of the Universe's Expansion Rate Widens with New Hubble Data

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New physics may be needed to rectify the universe's past and present behavior.

There is something wrong with our universe. Or, more specifically, it is outpacing all expectations for its present rate of expansion.

Something is amiss in astronomers' efforts to measure the past and predict the present, according to a discrepancy between the two main techniques for measuring the universe's expansion rate – a key to understanding its history and physical parameters.

arrow3.gif  Read More: HubbleSite

 

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L.A.T.1961

 "The new estimate of the Hubble constant is 74 kilometers (46 miles) per second per megaparsec. This means that for every 3.3 million light-years farther away a galaxy is from us, it appears to be moving 74 kilometers (46 miles) per second faster, as a result of the expansion of the universe. The number indicates that the universe is expanding at a 9% faster rate than the prediction of 67 kilometers (41.6 miles) per second per megaparsec, which comes from Planck's observations of the early universe, coupled with our present understanding of the universe."

https://phys.org/news/2019-04-hubble-universe-faster.html

 

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South Alabam

Maybe the big bang created the vacuum of space as we know it, and the space beyond the big bang is devoid of vacuum. As an object gets to the outer edge of our universe, at some point the vacuum would start to lose its grip thereby speeding up that object.

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lightly
20 minutes ago, South Alabam said:

Maybe the big bang created the vacuum of space as we know it, and the space beyond the big bang is devoid of vacuum. As an object gets to the outer edge of our universe, at some point the vacuum would start to lose its grip thereby speeding up that object.

I certainly don't know....but, haven't we been taught that there is no space beyond the universe?....and it is space itself which is expanding? ..and that the universe has no "edge" ?    Isn't the increasing distance between objects ,like galaxies and stars etc., more the  result of expanding space between objects ,rather than objects "speeding up"?

isn't  the Andromeda galaxy, and ours, actually moving closer together due to gravity overcoming and outpacing expansion?

our moon is moving closer to earth in the same way....Within expanding space!  It's all very counter intuitive and misunderstood?   Throw in the concepts of "dark" energy and matter, and we begin to see how very little we know for certain!

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Grey Area
11 hours ago, lightly said:

I certainly don't know....but, haven't we been taught that there is no space beyond the universe?....and it is space itself which is expanding? ..and that the universe has no "edge" ?    

Simple answer is, No idea.  Some physicists will give answers such as, the laws of physics break down, or, become hazy.  Some might give more technical answers, but in the end it's all the same answer, we don't know, currently cannot know, and likely will never know beyond wildly theoretical mathematical models.

11 hours ago, lightly said:

isn't  the Andromeda galaxy, and ours, actually moving closer together due to gravity overcoming and outpacing expansion?

Yes, we are part of a cluster of galaxies and Andromeda will eventually collide with the Milky Way.  But we are all still part of the this overall expansion.  Think of it like a Motorway, Cars travelling at speed toward their destination, they don't sit in a single lane for the entire journey, they will change lanes, but are still travelling toward their destination.  Andromeda is simply changing lanes on that Highway in the night.

11 hours ago, lightly said:

our moon is moving closer to earth in the same way....Within expanding space!  It's all very counter intuitive and misunderstood?   Throw in the concepts of "dark" energy and matter, and we begin to see how very little we know for certain!

The Moon is actually escaping the Earth at the rate of a few centimetres per year.  But you are right, ultimately we know very little for certain, and what we think we know maybe totally wrong.

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lightly
3 hours ago, Grey Area said:

Simple answer is, No idea.  Some physicists will give answers such as, the laws of physics break down, or, become hazy.  Some might give more technical answers, but in the end it's all the same answer, we don't know, currently cannot know, and likely will never know beyond wildly theoretical mathematical models.

Yes, we are part of a cluster of galaxies and Andromeda will eventually collide with the Milky Way.  But we are all still part of the this overall expansion.  Think of it like a Motorway, Cars travelling at speed toward their destination, they don't sit in a single lane for the entire journey, they will change lanes, but are still travelling toward their destination.  Andromeda is simply changing lanes on that Highway in the night.

The Moon is actually escaping the Earth at the rate of a few centimetres per year.  But you are right, ultimately we know very little for certain, and what we think we know maybe totally wrong.

Oops....I got the moon thing backward.  Thanks for correcting that Grey Area.  

The workings of the universe are absolutely fascinating !

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Jon the frog

So puny and small we are...a dim dot in the universe.

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Seti42

We know so little about the universe, it's staggering. I mean, look at 'dark matter/energy'. That's a BS placeholder term for the fact that our math does not in any way line up with what we see. Clearly, something is deeply flawed with our assumptions and understandings of astrophysics.

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thelion318

We are in a fish bowl and can't see the environment it sits within!

 

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GlitterRose

I keep saying it's the end of the world, but no one believes me!

 

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Tatetopa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=



Richard P. Feynman Quotes. It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

Maybe its time to refine our guesses.

Edited by Tatetopa
added short link from Feynman lecture.
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Piney
On 4/25/2019 at 5:19 PM, South Alabam said:

Maybe the big bang created the vacuum of space as we know it, and the space beyond the big bang is devoid of vacuum. As an object gets to the outer edge of our universe, at some point the vacuum would start to lose its grip thereby speeding up that object.

@sci-nerd  I think since SpaceTime itself is expanding it gives the appearance of the Universe being older because the period of time itself is growing longer/moving faster as SpaceTime expands. It's a nerve rattling concept I was going to throw across @danydandan .  As Time stretches it grows longer/ moves faster? 

@South Alabam  Time doesn't even exist outside the universe let alone anything else.  

Here's something to ponder. Think about the theoretical singularity which created the Big Bang didn't even exist for a moment. Because that moment never existed. 

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zep73
13 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think since SpaceTime itself is expanding it gives the appearance of the Universe being older because the period of time itself is growing longer/moving faster as SpaceTime expands.

Only "faster than light speed" and extreme gravity can alter time in an essential way. And since no matter can travel that fast, there is only gravity left. And gravity of that magnitude is not involved in the expansion of the universe.

I like your idea, but it needs more juice, more details. Preferably coherent with the known constants.

Edited by sci-nerd

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Piney
2 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

I like your idea, but it needs more juice, more details. Preferably coherent with the known constants.

 In a nutshell SpaceTime itself is stretching. 

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zep73
5 minutes ago, Piney said:

 In a nutshell SpaceTime itself is stretching. 

If spacetime is stretching, everything grows in size. That would be detectable on the quantum level. It is not.

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Piney
1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

If spacetime is stretching, everything grows in size. That would be detectable on the quantum level. It is not.

That's why I wanted to throw it across Danny. He knows more than I do. 

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zep73
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's why I wanted to throw it across Danny. He knows more than I do. 

Yes, we need @danydandan and @Harte

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Piney
1 minute ago, sci-nerd said:

Yes, we need @danydandan and @Harte

Harte can certainly do the math. :yes:

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danydandan

Guys my field is more QM than astrophysics, but I'll give the paper a read. Seems interesting that we are/were about 10% in error prior to this data. So does that mean our universe is about 50-60 million years younger than we anticipated? 

https://arxiv.org/abs/1903.07603

That's the paper, it's so far outside my scope of knowledge I'd need to go back to college and do another degree to make an informed opinion.

But that being said it seems the issue is a stellar evolution and H0 measurements, the issue is precision or the fact we didn't have a notion about the expansion and filling in the blanks with dark matter and inflation obviously appears to be erroneous if you assume these results are correct. 

@Piney to answer your question, it appears we don't really know, well I don't know anyways.

Edit: one billion years not 50-60 million years.

 

 

Edited by danydandan
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Harte
2 hours ago, sci-nerd said:

If spacetime is stretching, everything grows in size. That would be detectable on the quantum level. It is not.

Local forces FAR outweigh the puny amount of expansion force in small volumes. Even gravity does - the weakest of all the forces.

The expansion is additive, so effects become more and more evident the larger the volume of space being observed.

Harte

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zep73
1 minute ago, Harte said:

Local forces FAR outweigh the puny amount of expansion force in small volumes. Even gravity does - the weakest of all the forces.

The expansion is additive, so effects become more and more evident the larger the volume of space being observed.

Harte

What I meant was, if everything: the sun, the earth, we, our tools grows in size, we would not see it, because the proportions would be equal. But on the quantum level the energy charge of the particles would not change, only the size, and that would be a difference we could detect.

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Harte

Space, not things, is expanding. It expands out from between the elementary particles because they are held together by MUCH stronger forces (on that level of volume.)

Harte

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fred_mc

I don't understand exactly what is new with this discovery. That the expansion of the universe is speeding up is known already since before, that is why astronomers invented dark energy.

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Harte
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There are others that think such dark energy ideas are now getting too convoluted, and that a much simpler explanation, one that even Einstein considered, should now be given serious consideration; a change in the speed of light, or VSL (Varying Speed of Light) as others know it by.

“The ‘tension’ between measurements of the Hubble-Lemaire constant, H0, (which is known to be changing over time) shows that old theories of the Universe are missing something. If H0 was the lower value of 67 km/sec/Mpc, much or all of the so-called acceleration would vanish. The differing values may be explained if the speed of light has changed between the early and late universe,” said Louise Riofrio, an author and scientist who now works at an observatory association in Hawaii.

The theory that light has slowed down ever so slightly year after year since the Big Bang occurred has perplexingly for those who advocate this idea, remained out of mainstream physics. But like Riofrio, there are others who postulate that a changing speed of light can not only account for a simplified explanation of an expanding Universe without invoking the need for dark energy, it can explain many other cosmological phenomena too.

This basic but powerful enough idea, which should not be confused with faster than light theories, could soon be tested with the help of ESA’s Atomic Clock Ensemble in Space (ACES) mission which is scheduled to fly to the International Space Station next year. Riofrio has written an exclusive article for ROOM magazine explaining the theory behind a change in light speed that will be published in our Summer issue.

https://room.eu.com/news/as-mystery-of-the-universes-expansion-rate-widens-a-simple-solution-is-offered

Harte

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zep73
12 hours ago, Harte said:

Space, not things, is expanding. It expands out from between the elementary particles because they are held together by MUCH stronger forces (on that level of volume.)

Harte

I was talking about @Piney's "spacetime stretching"-theory, and how we would detect it, if spacetime really was stretching.

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