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Belief in Apollo hoax conspiracy could grow

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bknight
2 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Could you post the link again? If I can access all the memos you have seen, then I may be able to find a flaw in what John Kelly has been telling me.

It is not in the browser history, and it was searched in Google, emails between the two Sept 68

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Derek Willis
9 minutes ago, bknight said:

It is not in the browser history, and it was searched in Google, emails between the two Sept 68

I presume you mean memos between the two.

Google rarely comes up with any of the really interesting information, which is why when you said you had read all the memos sent during Aug-Sep 1968 I became very enthusiastic. But never mind, and thanks for trying to find the link. 

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bknight
On 5/21/2019 at 1:38 AM, Derek Willis said:

I applied to join ApolloHoax. They said they were considering my application. For some reason they haven't got back to me.

There was some talk that the experts there were going to determine whether the plume of the Apollo 12 LM decent-stage engine would have impinged on Surveyor Crater, but I haven't heard anything yet.

I couldn't say which is the better of the articles. Take your pick. 

Have you tried logging in with username/password?  LO doesn't normally take this long to approve someone, unless you are using an IP of a banned member, then you won't make it in.

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Obviousman
On 5/20/2019 at 7:01 PM, Derek Willis said:

What both fascinates and disturbs me is how much hostility is produced when the orthodox account of Project Apollo is questioned.

Try being one of the people who walked on the lunar surface, one of the people who designed the hardware, one of the people who directly supported the mission, all people who can tell you it was real... and yet for 50 years, people claim it was faked and they are lying. I think you would get a little frustrated with the stupidity and ignorance of some.

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Derek Willis
11 hours ago, bknight said:

Have you tried logging in with username/password?  LO doesn't normally take this long to approve someone, unless you are using an IP of a banned member, then you won't make it in.

I'm not using the IP of a banned member. I followed the procedure and received an email saying my membership was being considered and I would receive another email. So far I haven't received it. I have tried logging in, but it doesn't work. Whatever the problem is, I'm not going to bother chasing it up. 

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Derek Willis
9 hours ago, Obviousman said:

Try being one of the people who walked on the lunar surface, one of the people who designed the hardware, one of the people who directly supported the mission, all people who can tell you it was real... and yet for 50 years, people claim it was faked and they are lying. I think you would get a little frustrated with the stupidity and ignorance of some.

You mentioned people who are lying. One of the main reasons why many people believe some or all of the Apollo Moon landings were faked is because Apollo was a US government project. Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies. So, for instance, Richard Nixon made a telephone call to the Apollo 11 astronauts when they were on the Moon. Surely that proves Apollo 11 was real! No president would deliberately deceive the American public, would they? Then just a few years later Nixon was forced to resign because he had deceived the American public over the Watergate Scandal.

And of course the Soviet government lied about their Moon program. For decades they claimed they were never in the "Moon race". After the fall of the Soviet Union it became clear the Soviets had very much been in the Moon race. But they had failed to even get near to sending men to the Moon, and so did what all governments do - they lied.

In 2016 a survey in the UK indicated 52% of people believe Apollo 11 was faked. Apparently, almost three-quarters of people between 25 and 35 believe the mission was faked. Of course, that doesn't mean it was faked. In the UK there is currently an almost total mistrust of the government because of the Brexit debacle. The problem is, governments just keep on telling lies. Often, they tell lies because the politicians are simply liars. More often they tell lies to preserve national security or to prevent the economy tanking. But whatever the reason, they are still lies.

So, I ask this question: If like all other governments the US government tells lies over just about everything, why should people believe they are not telling lies about Project Apollo? I won't be holding my breath waiting for an answer.

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Obviousman
1 hour ago, Derek Willis said:

You mentioned people who are lying. One of the main reasons why many people believe some or all of the Apollo Moon landings were faked is because Apollo was a US government project. Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies. So, for instance, Richard Nixon made a telephone call to the Apollo 11 astronauts when they were on the Moon. Surely that proves Apollo 11 was real! No president would deliberately deceive the American public, would they? Then just a few years later Nixon was forced to resign because he had deceived the American public over the Watergate Scandal.

<snip>

So, I ask this question: If like all other governments the US government tells lies over just about everything, why should people believe they are not telling lies about Project Apollo? I won't be holding my breath waiting for an answer.

So if one government member lies, they are all liars? If one priest is a pedophile, all priests are pedophiles? If one academic is a cheat / fraud, all academics are cheats / frauds?

Let's bring this a little closer to home: there have been numerous people who have claimed academic or other qualification in order to promote a cause, a theory, a publication.

So all such people are frauds / liars?

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Derek Willis
11 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

So if one government member lies, they are all liars? If one priest is a pedophile, all priests are pedophiles? If one academic is a cheat / fraud, all academics are cheats / frauds?

Let's bring this a little closer to home: there have been numerous people who have claimed academic or other qualification in order to promote a cause, a theory, a publication.

So all such people are frauds / liars?

I was referring specifically to Richard Nixon, president of the USA. Throughout his career he was a proven liar. In fact, he is more famous for telling lies than anything else.

Who are you referring to?

 

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
Posted (edited)
Quote

You mentioned people who are lying. One of the main reasons why many people believe some or all of the Apollo Moon landings were faked is because Apollo was a US government project. Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies. So, for instance, Richard Nixon made a telephone call to the Apollo 11 astronauts when they were on the Moon. Surely that proves Apollo 11 was real! No president would deliberately deceive the American public, would they? Then just a few years later Nixon was forced to resign because he had deceived the American public over the Watergate Scandal.

The Apollo programme was started under Kennedy and mostly done during Johnsons time in office, Nixon only came into office very late in the Apollo programme (january 9th 1969). Nixon being a liar is completely irrelevant to a programme that was allready under way by the time of his inauguration. Apollo 8 happened before Nixon was president. 

Quote

And of course the Soviet government lied about their Moon program. For decades they claimed they were never in the "Moon race". After the fall of the Soviet Union it became clear the Soviets had very much been in the Moon race. But they had failed to even get near to sending men to the Moon, and so did what all governments do - they lied.

They lied about not being in the race, but they clearly thought it would be possible. Otherwise why would they attempt to do it ?

The Soyuz spacecraft, still being used today, was developed for their moon programme.

They even went as far as to build a lander and test it in orbit. Or is this fake to ?

lunalander.jpg 

Quote

In 2016 a survey in the UK indicated 52% of people believe Apollo 11 was faked. Apparently, almost three-quarters of people between 25 and 35 believe the mission was faked. Of course, that doesn't mean it was faked. In the UK there is currently an almost total mistrust of the government because of the Brexit debacle. The problem is, governments just keep on telling lies. Often, they tell lies because the politicians are simply liars. More often they tell lies to preserve national security or to prevent the economy tanking. But whatever the reason, they are still lies.

So, I ask this question: If like all other governments the US government tells lies over just about everything, why should people believe they are not telling lies about Project Apollo? I won't be holding my breath waiting for an answer.

Politicians telling lies is irrelevant as the vast majority of the people involved in the details of the Apollo project were engineers and scientists. The mission crew were pilots and one geologist. 

As for UK distrust in government because of Brexit that is of your own making and have nothing to do with Apollo.

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

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Obviousman
40 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

I was referring specifically to Richard Nixon, president of the USA. Throughout his career he was a proven liar. In fact, he is more famous for telling lies than anything else.

Who are you referring to?

That's not what you said earlier. You said:

Quote

 Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies.

Quote

And of course the Soviet government lied about their Moon program. For decades they claimed they were never in the "Moon race". After the fall of the Soviet Union it became clear the Soviets had very much been in the Moon race. But they had failed to even get near to sending men to the Moon, and so did what all governments do - they lied.

Quote

In the UK there is currently an almost total mistrust of the government because of the Brexit debacle. The problem is, governments just keep on telling lies. Often, they tell lies because the politicians are simply liars. More often they tell lies to preserve national security or to prevent the economy tanking. But whatever the reason, they are still lies.

 

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Derek Willis
11 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

The Apollo programme was started under Kennedy and mostly done during Johnsons time in office, Nixon only came into office very late in the Apollo programme (january 9th 1969). Nixon being a liar is completely irrelevant to a programme that was allready under way by the time of his inauguration. Apollo 8 happened before Nixon was president. 

They lied about not being in the race, but they clearly thought it would be possible. Otherwise why would they attempt to do it ?

The Soyuz spacecraft, still being used today, was developed for their moon programme.

They even went as far as to build a lander and test it in orbit. Or is this fake to ?

 

Politicians telling lies is irrelevant as the vast majority of the people involved in the details of the Apollo project were engineers and scientists. The mission crew were pilots and one geologist. 

As for UK distrust in government because of Brexit that is of your own making and have nothing to do with Apollo.

Yes, Apollo 8 happened a few weeks before Nixon became president, but after he had won the election in November 1968. That timing was in fact important because the mission occurred during the hand-over procedure from one administration to the other.

Of course the Soviets thought it was possible to land men on the Moon, as did the Americans. As I have clearly pointed out, the Americans did land men on the Moon, starting with Apollo 14. So no, the Soviet lander was not a fake.

The vast majority of engineers and scientists involved in NASA didn't tell lies because they didn't need to. That was because they genuinely developed the equipment to send men to the Moon. But just like everyone else, they were deceived with regards to the early missions.

I used Brexit as a current example of how governments lie through their teeth.

 

 

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Derek Willis
9 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

That's not what you said earlier.

I wrote: "Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies. So, for instance, Richard Nixon made a telephone call to the Apollo 11 astronauts when they were on the Moon."

How more specific do you want me to be?

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Obviousman
19 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

I wrote: "Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies. So, for instance, Richard Nixon made a telephone call to the Apollo 11 astronauts when they were on the Moon."

How more specific do you want me to be?

You said:

  • the US government (has done it fair share of) lies
  • The USSR (Soviet government) lied
  • Governments lie

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Derek Willis
Just now, Obviousman said:

You said:

  • the US government (has done it fair share of) lies
  • The USSR (Soviet government) lied
  • Governments lie

Yes, I did. All governments tell lies. Is there a problem in me saying that?

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Obviousman
6 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

Yes, I did. All governments tell lies. Is there a problem in me saying that?

Yes - you said:

Quote

I was referring specifically to Richard Nixon, president of the USA. Throughout his career he was a proven liar. In fact, he is more famous for telling lies than anything else.

You changed your tack when you were caught out. I suspect you would have difficulty laying straight in bed.

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Derek Willis
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Yes - you said:

You changed your tack when you were caught out. I suspect you would have difficulty laying straight in bed.

All governments lie. That is a generality. I also specifically referred to Richard Nixon because he was US president at the time of Apollo 11. What is the problem with that?

Edit: In fact, it is easy to see how I went from the general to the specific. I said, "Like all governments, the US government has done its fair share of telling lies." I then mentioned Nixon in relation to Apollo 11.

Edited by Derek Willis

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Derek Willis

Before I was sidetracked by whatever point it is that Obviousman is trying to make, I was going to point out the irony regarding Richard Nixon.

As I mentioned, many people don't believe all or some of Apollo was real because of the habit governments have of telling lies. I illustrated this by drawing attention to how one of the most prolific liars of modern times was in the White House at the time of Apollo 11.

The irony is that if what John Kelly has told me is true, Nixon didn't know Apollo 11 was faked!

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bknight

So let me summarize YOUR thoughts on Apollo, not what "John" believes.

All Apollo missions to the Moon were faked prior to A13 and then A17 was faked, because Harrison didn't realize Gene had returned a lost fender of the LRV.

You believe that the Surveyor lander was covered with dust from its landing/bouncing events, but there is too much dust on it.

The AGNC did not have the capability to navigate Moon landings prior to A13.

Apollo communications were processed through satellites under the control/supervision of the CIA.

Larry Baysinger could not eves drop on the A11 EVA. 

The CSM during the faked Moon missions detached from the SIVB approximately one minute after the start of the TLI ignition into a "high" Earth orbit.  The CSM remained in that orbit until reentry was initiated.  What was the presumed apogee of this orbit?

The LM was modified by people under the supervision of Howard Hughes that included a robotic arm to gather samples, store them in a returnable sample container similar to a Corona capsule(no Fake Moon rocks).

If I missed any, please enumerate.

Now what I asked some time ago and bears repeating, with some new questions.

How do you reconcile the differences in your beliefs with the LRO images of artifacts around the LM approximately 75-100 feet from the LM.  Trails leading from the artifacts and further out to craters surrounding the LM, including the Surveyor 3 lander.

How was the liftoff of A17's ascent staged(captured) by the LRV TV camera if the mission was faked?

How were artifacts from the Surveyor 3 lander returned, analyzed and displayed at the Smithsonian? 

Where were images from A11-A12 taken?  How did NASA simulate the atmosphere, Sun and Lunar surface in those images?

Where did the A8 and A10 images taken if not in transit to the Moon and orbit of the Moon?  How where cloud patterns made identical to weather satellite images?

How were data observations made on ALSEP devices from A11-A12 captured and transmitted back to the Earth?

 

 

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Derek Willis
26 minutes ago, bknight said:

So let me summarize YOUR thoughts on Apollo, not what "John" believes.

All Apollo missions to the Moon were faked prior to A13 and then A17 was faked, because Harrison didn't realize Gene had returned a lost fender of the LRV.

You believe that the Surveyor lander was covered with dust from its landing/bouncing events, but there is too much dust on it.

The AGNC did not have the capability to navigate Moon landings prior to A13.

Apollo communications were processed through satellites under the control/supervision of the CIA.

Larry Baysinger could not eves drop on the A11 EVA. 

The CSM during the faked Moon missions detached from the SIVB approximately one minute after the start of the TLI ignition into a "high" Earth orbit.  The CSM remained in that orbit until reentry was initiated.  What was the presumed apogee of this orbit?

The LM was modified by people under the supervision of Howard Hughes that included a robotic arm to gather samples, store them in a returnable sample container similar to a Corona capsule(no Fake Moon rocks).

If I missed any, please enumerate.

Now what I asked some time ago and bears repeating, with some new questions.

How do you reconcile the differences in your beliefs with the LRO images of artifacts around the LM approximately 75-100 feet from the LM.  Trails leading from the artifacts and further out to craters surrounding the LM, including the Surveyor 3 lander.

How was the liftoff of A17's ascent staged(captured) by the LRV TV camera if the mission was faked?

How were artifacts from the Surveyor 3 lander returned, analyzed and displayed at the Smithsonian? 

Where were images from A11-A12 taken?  How did NASA simulate the atmosphere, Sun and Lunar surface in those images?

Where did the A8 and A10 images taken if not in transit to the Moon and orbit of the Moon?  How where cloud patterns made identical to weather satellite images?

How were data observations made on ALSEP devices from A11-A12 captured and transmitted back to the Earth?

 

As I keep saying, John Kelly will be providing his evidence via the media on July 20th. I will be providing what I know in my book - Faking Apollo: Fifty Years of Secrecy - in just a few weeks. An edition will be available for free online. The book provides answers to all your questions, and many more.

In the meanwhile I will address one of your points.

Howard Hughes didn't "supervise" anything. At the time of the Apollo missions he was living as a recluse in a Las Vegas hotel. What Hughes did was to act as a facilitator through his de facto control of the Hughes Aircraft Company. The company was owned by the Howard Hughes Medical Institute to reduce taxes, but mainly to stop unwanted interference from government departments. Hughes also owned many other resources.

An example of Hughes' facilitating is the mystery regarding where the "Moon movies" were made. The lack of a "secret" studio is usually given as one of the reasons why the missions couldn't have been faked. Well, the Moon movies were made inside the 30,000 square meter hangar at Hughes Airport in Los Angeles. Hughes had erected the hangar in the 1940's for the giant seaplanes he thought he was going to build. As it happened, he only built one, the so-called "Spruce Goose". At the time of Apollo the "Spruce Goose" was dismantled and stored at one end of the hangar.

Howard Hughes was formerly well-known as a movie director and producer - he once owned RKO studios - and so his facilities at his private airport, and the movie-makers he kept on retainer at Hughes Productions - just in case he ever wanted to make another movie - were a critical part of faking the Apollo missions.

In the case of Apollo 12 there were virtually no T.V. images because Alan Bean had managed to point the camera into the Sun twice, and render it inoperable. Consequently, the stills pictures were taken in the converted hangar at Hughes Airport.

I am afraid that is all you are going to get right now. When my book comes out, please feel free to fire questions.

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bknight
4 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

As I keep saying, John Kelly will be providing his evidence via the media on July 20th. I will be providing what I know in my book - Faking Apollo: Fifty Years of Secrecy - in just a few weeks. An edition will be available for free online. The book provides answers to all your questions, and many more.

In the meanwhile I will address one of your points.

Howard Hughes didn't "supervise" anything. At the time of the Apollo missions he was living as a recluse in a Las Vegas hotel. What Hughes did was to act as a facilitator through his de facto control of the Hughes Aircraft Company. The company was owned by the Howard Hughes Medical Institute to reduce taxes, but mainly to stop unwanted interference from government departments. Hughes also owned many other resources.

An example of Hughes' facilitating is the mystery regarding where the "Moon movies" were made. The lack of a "secret" studio is usually given as one of the reasons why the missions couldn't have been faked. Well, the Moon movies were made inside the 30,000 square meter hangar at Hughes Airport in Los Angeles. Hughes had erected the hangar in the 1940's for the giant seaplanes he thought he was going to build. As it happened, he only built one, the so-called "Spruce Goose". At the time of Apollo the "Spruce Goose" was dismantled and stored at one end of the hangar.

Howard Hughes was formerly well-known as a movie director and producer - he once owned RKO studios - and so his facilities at his private airport, and the movie-makers he kept on retainer at Hughes Productions - just in case he ever wanted to make another movie - were a critical part of faking the Apollo missions.

In the case of Apollo 12 there were virtually no T.V. images because Alan Bean had managed to point the camera into the Sun twice, and render it inoperable. Consequently, the stills pictures were taken in the converted hangar at Hughes Airport.

I am afraid that is all you are going to get right now. When my book comes out, please feel free to fire questions.

Do you really believe that IF your narrative borrowed from "John" would be correct that Howard didn't allow spending of his money in those various companies without him having a hand in the design, building and implementing of such programs?  You don't know very much about Howard Hughes, about the same as you know about at least the early Apollo Moon missions.

Where did I mention TV transmissions from A12?  None the less there were TV images from the camera until Al pointed at the sun, such as:

1155828.jpg  I already posted why long term video was not possible to be faked that would invalidate your thoughts concerning the faking of A17.  

Well if don't wish to share anything further there is no point posting questions.  As I have indicated before, your book will contain the same nonsense as you have displayed in this thread.  You have no proof just conjecture accompanied with your "if I ran the zoo" thoughts and of course "if I can't understand/explain it, it must be fake".

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Myles
2 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

 

The irony is that if what John Kelly has told me is true, Nixon didn't know Apollo 11 was faked!

John Kelly worked for the government.  He is a liar.

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bknight
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Myles said:

John Kelly worked for the government.  He is a liar.

He is the sole individual striving to uncover the biggest hoax of all, as he only worked indirectly for the government, but was in the know, obviously.:rolleyes:

Edited by bknight

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Desertrat56

I want to know who John Kelly is?  I found this, but I know that is not who Derek is talking about.  The guy is dead and his name is Thomas J.  @Derek Willis  who is your friend "John Kelly" really?

https://historycollection.jsc.nasa.gov/JSCHistoryPortal/history/oral_histories/KellyTJ/KellyTJ_9-19-00.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_J._Kelly_(aerospace_engineer)

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Derek Willis
2 hours ago, bknight said:

Do you really believe that IF your narrative borrowed from "John" would be correct that Howard didn't allow spending of his money in those various companies without him having a hand in the design, building and implementing of such programs?  You don't know very much about Howard Hughes, about the same as you know about at least the early Apollo Moon missions.

Where did I mention TV transmissions from A12?  None the less there were TV images from the camera until Al pointed at the sun, such as:

  I already posted why long term video was not possible to be faked that would invalidate your thoughts concerning the faking of A17.  

Well if don't wish to share anything further there is no point posting questions.  As I have indicated before, your book will contain the same nonsense as you have displayed in this thread.  You have no proof just conjecture accompanied with your "if I ran the zoo" thoughts and of course "if I can't understand/explain it, it must be fake".

When Howard Hughes was a younger man he took a very hands-on involvement in the projects at Hughes Aircraft. By your reasoning, if he was still doing that in the 1960's then he must have "supervised" the design and development of the Surveyor lunar landers. Is that what you are saying he did?

I mentioned the T.V. transmissions from Apollo 12 - or rather the lack of T.V. transmissions - to indicate how convenient that was. Whilst "faking" the mission there was no need to provide live color T.V. transmissions because Alan Bean had conveniently put the camera out of operation. 

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Derek Willis
2 hours ago, Myles said:

John Kelly worked for the government.  He is a liar.

John Kelly didn't work for the government. He worked for the Hughes Aircraft Company.

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