Belief in Apollo hoax conspiracy could grow

[Derek Willis]

5 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Oh - and I forgot to mention - now you are claiming that literally thousands of technical experts were "fooled". If you were to ask me, I think I can point to the fool in this case.

You just have to look at the history of warfare to understand how these things work. The basic psychology is that if people have no reason to believe what they are being told is untrue, they will believe it is true. Take the Enigma machine in WW2. German military planners were given no hints that the code had been cracked, so they continued to believe they could safely send messages. (I know that is a generalized description of what happened. Some military planners did believe the code had been cracked, but they were reluctant to say anything.) In the case of Apollo, if a technician at Mission Control was receiving telemetry that matched expectations, why would they suspect there was anything wrong?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

Just now, Derek Willis said:

I checked out as much as was possible. Believe me, the people that did the covering-up fifty years ago - and those who continue with it - did a good job!

You didnt answer my question, so let me try again:

Why write a book about a claim if you are unsure about the source of the information ?

Why not wait until "John Kelly" have given you all the information ? 

[Derek Willis]

21 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Oh - and I forgot to mention - now you are claiming that literally thousands of technical experts were "fooled". If you were to ask me, I think I can point to the fool in this case.

Don't you get bored with the ad hominems? Or are you attempting the well worn tactic of trying to make me angry? And then when I get angry you can ask the mods to close the thread. 

[Derek Willis]

2 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

You didnt answer my question, so let me try again:

Why write a book about a claim if you are unsure about the source of the information ?

Why not wait until "John Kelly" have given you all the information ? 

I am not collaborating with John Kelly. I have written a book based on the information he has shown me. I have not seen all the information he has. But that doesn't mean I didn't have enough to write a book that seriously casts doubt on the official version of Project Apollo. 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

3 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

You just have to look at the history of warfare to understand how these things work. The basic psychology is that if people have no reason to believe what they are being told is untrue, they will believe it is true.

The Apollo programme was civilian and not conducted during wartime.

3 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

Take the Enigma machine in WW2. German military planners were given no hints that the code had been cracked, so they continued to believe they could safely send messages. (I know that is a generalized description of what happened. Some military planners did believe the code had been cracked, but they were reluctant to say anything)

What happened at Bletchley Park can't be compared to Apollo. The breaking of the Enigma code (and other codes too) were a wartime intelligence operation, while Apollo was a very public peacetime civilian project.

Do you not see the difference ? 

3 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

In the case of Apollo, if a technician at Mission Control was receiving telemetry that matched expectations, why would they suspect there was anything wrong?

So in addition to the Mission Control crew you now need a whole other crew to make believable fake telemetry ?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

16 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

I am not collaborating with John Kelly. I have written a book based on the information he has shown me.

Writing a book based on the information he gave you isn't collaborating ?

Quote

I have not seen all the information he has.

That's what I don't get. Why not wait until you have all the information ? 

Quote

But that doesn't mean I didn't have enough to write a book that seriously casts doubt on the official version of Project Apollo. 

I guess we will see about that. It might even turn out to be as big as your Aldebaran project ? 

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Derek Willis]

1 minute ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

The Apollo programme was civilian and not conducted during wartime.

What happened at Bletchley Park can't be compared to Apollo. The breaking of the Enigma code (and other codes too) were a wartime intelligence operation, while Apollo was a very public peacetime civilian project.

Do you not see the difference ? 

So in addition to the Mission Control crew you now need a whole other crew to make believable fake telemetry ?

I am referring to the methods used to deceive people. Those same methods can be used in peacetime and in wartime. For instance, millions of people in the UK now believe the government has deceived them over Brexit. (Incidentally, I take no real interest in that - I am simply using it as an example).

Yes, there were people creating fake telemetry. (Though I should of course add my caveat.)

Apparently, the 2016 US presidential election was won by Trump because of people creating "fake" news and, more importantly, people believing it. Like I say, this sort of thing has gone on for centuries, even before the Trojans accepted a gift of a giant fake horse.

[Derek Willis]

18 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Writing a book based on the information he gave you isn't collaborating ?

That's what I don't get. Why not wait until you have all the information ? 

I guess we will see about that. It might even turn out to be as big as your Aldebaran project ? 

My book is not authorized by John Kelly, so it is not a collaboration.

He only ever agreed to show me part of the information he has.

The Aldebaran Project is still ongoing. Who knows what we might uncover!

Edit: For those who don't know, the Aldebaran Project began as an investigation into the possibility that there is an ancient alien satellite in Earth orbit. That, as myself and the other people involved have now discovered, was a bit of a red herring. What in fact was being covered up is that the Nazis may have managed to launch a small satellite in 1945. I don't know if it is true, but it has been fascinating looking into it.

Second edit. Did you really think I was going to be bothered by you mentioning the Aldebaran Project?

Edited May 24, 2019 by Derek Willis

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

11 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

My book is not authorized by John Kelly, so it is not a collaboration.

What does he think about you writing a book using his information without his consent ?

Quote

He only ever agreed to show me part of the information he has.

I hope we get it soon. After all these disclosures allways turn out to be full of solid information, when they happen at all that is.....

Quote

The Aldebaran Project is still ongoing. Who knows what we might uncover!

Not much recently it seems. The website isn't even available anymore.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Derek Willis]

Just now, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

What does he think about you writing a book using his information without his consent ?

I hope we get it soon. After all these disclosures allways turn out to be full of solid information, when they happen at all that is.....

Not much recently it seems. The website isn't even available anymore.

He has consented to me using the information. However, if I had written an authorized book then I wouldn't have been able to include things he may not want me to include.

There is a website, but for the time being we are keeping it private.

[Obviousman]

2 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

Don't you get bored with the ad hominems? Or are you attempting the well worn tactic of trying to make me angry? And then when I get angry you can ask the mods to close the thread. 

Oh, I don't see any benefit in making you angry. I'd just like you to give answers to the pretty wild accusations you have made.

[Obviousman]

2 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

You just have to look at the history of warfare to understand how these things work. The basic psychology is that if people have no reason to believe what they are being told is untrue, they will believe it is true. Take the Enigma machine in WW2. German military planners were given no hints that the code had been cracked, so they continued to believe they could safely send messages. (I know that is a generalized description of what happened. Some military planners did believe the code had been cracked, but they were reluctant to say anything.) In the case of Apollo, if a technician at Mission Control was receiving telemetry that matched expectations, why would they suspect there was anything wrong?

Comparing apples with oranges. Coded communications are always subject to attack... and in the case of Enigma, it was operator error that gave the first vital break. After that it was the Bombe and Colossus that did the work.

This is nothing like Apollo.

[Trelane]

Sorry folks, I'm late to this party. Let me get this straight. The moon landings were all faked? What would be the benefit of doing this? More importantly, who would benefit? This all seems very absurd.

[Obviousman]

20 minutes ago, Trelane said:

Sorry folks, I'm late to this party. Let me get this straight. The moon landings were all faked? What would be the benefit of doing this? More importantly, who would benefit? This all seems very absurd.

Oh yes indeed, that is the claim (or thereabouts)... but where to start?

 

Edited to add:

Derek - or his source (I can't distinguish between the two right now) - claim that not all but some of the missions were faked.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Obviousman

[Derek Willis]

40 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Comparing apples with oranges. Coded communications are always subject to attack... and in the case of Enigma, it was operator error that gave the first vital break. After that it was the Bombe and Colossus that did the work.

This is nothing like Apollo.

My point - which I am sure you realized, but preferred not to admit - was that it is possible to deceive a large number of people. The Allies managed to hide from the Germans the fact that the Enigma code had been broken.

[Derek Willis]

39 minutes ago, Trelane said:

Sorry folks, I'm late to this party. Let me get this straight. The moon landings were all faked? What would be the benefit of doing this? More importantly, who would benefit? This all seems very absurd.

I made my first post on page 6. So if you want to look back and find out what this is all about, that is where to start.

It would be absurd to claim all the Apollo missions were faked. Neither myself nor anyone I know has made that claim.

[Derek Willis]

50 minutes ago, Obviousman said:

Oh, I don't see any benefit in making you angry. I'd just like you to give answers to the pretty wild accusations you have made.

Well that is fine. I was just wanting to find out why you make such repeated use of ad hominems.

[Derek Willis]

1 hour ago, Obviousman said:

Oh, I don't see any benefit in making you angry. I'd just like you to give answers to the pretty wild accusations you have made.

Relatively speaking, very few people knew what was going on. For instance, if people believed and repeated what James Webb said about his resignation, then those people are not at fault. Consequently, neither myself nor John Kelly are making "wild accusations" about those people. 

[bknight]

Derek:

Please attempt to answer my questions:

How do you reconcile the differences in your beliefs with the LRO images of artifacts around the LM approximately 75-100 feet from the LM.  Trails leading from the artifacts and further out to craters surrounding the LM, including the Surveyor 3 lander.

How/where were the hours of TV "produced" during A17 including the liftoff of A17's ascent staged(captured) by the LRV TV camera if the mission was faked?

How were artifacts from the Surveyor 3 lander returned, analyzed and displayed at the Smithsonian? 

Where were images from A11-A12 taken?  How did NASA simulate the atmosphere, Sun and Lunar surface in those images?

Where did the A8 and A10 images taken if not in transit to the Moon and orbit of the Moon?  How where cloud patterns made identical to weather satellite images?

How were data observations made on ALSEP devices from A11-A12 captured and transmitted back to the Earth.

Document hardware/software changes to the AGNC after the A12 mission, "that brought it up to snuff"(or words to that effect).

 

Not pertaining to Apollo, but compute how the Nazis may have managed to launch a small satellite in 1945.

 

ETA: And stop with the "John's" documents.  I didn't ask for you to convey what 'John" hasn't given you, the questions I poise are simply asking you to give answers to question asked

Edited May 24, 2019 by bknight
Add part about "John"

[Derek Willis]

18 minutes ago, bknight said:

Derek:

Please attempt to answer my questions:

How do you reconcile the differences in your beliefs with the LRO images of artifacts around the LM approximately 75-100 feet from the LM.  Trails leading from the artifacts and further out to craters surrounding the LM, including the Surveyor 3 lander.

How/where were the hours of TV "produced" during A17 including the liftoff of A17's ascent staged(captured) by the LRV TV camera if the mission was faked?

How were artifacts from the Surveyor 3 lander returned, analyzed and displayed at the Smithsonian? 

Where were images from A11-A12 taken?  How did NASA simulate the atmosphere, Sun and Lunar surface in those images?

Where did the A8 and A10 images taken if not in transit to the Moon and orbit of the Moon?  How where cloud patterns made identical to weather satellite images?

How were data observations made on ALSEP devices from A11-A12 captured and transmitted back to the Earth.

Document hardware/software changes to the AGNC after the A12 mission, "that brought it up to snuff"(or words to that effect).

 

Not pertaining to Apollo, but compute how the Nazis may have managed to launch a small satellite in 1945.

 

ETA: And stop with the "John's" documents.  I didn't ask for you to convey what 'John" hasn't given you, the questions I poise are simply asking you to give answers to question asked

This is going round in circles. I have on many occasions indicated that you will find the answers to your questions in my book and in the evidence John Kelly will be providing.

I am sure some members will be asking the mods to close down this thread on the basis that I am not willing to answer every question put to me. Well, so be it. If that is the case, then I guess you will have to wait until my book is available.

With regards to the Nazi satellite, if in the future someone wants me to start a thread on that subject then I will be happy to. Essentially, the launcher consisted of a V-2 as the first stage, and then a total of twenty-one Taifun anti-aircraft missiles clustered to form the three upper-stages. Though smaller, the launcher very much resembled the Jupiter-C developed by Werner von Braun to launch America's first satellite Explorer 1 in January 1958. The launch profile was the same. The upper-stages - which were contained inside a "tub" - were spun-up prior to launch to provide stabilization. After the V-2 reached its apogee, the upper-stages were fired one after the other.

The satellite itself was little more than a radio transmitter.

I carried out an analysis to determine whether the launcher could have sent a small satellite into orbit, and the figures confirm that it could have. I am not going to discuss any of this until a later date. I only mentioned it because perhaps Noteverythingisaconspiracy was hoping to embarrass me - or even discredit me - by mentioning the Aldebaran Project.

[bknight]

3 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

This is going round in circles. I have on many occasions indicated that you will find the answers to your questions in my book and in the evidence John Kelly will be providing.

I am sure some members will be asking the mods to close down this thread on the basis that I am not willing to answer every question put to me. Well, so be it. If that is the case, then I guess you will have to wait until my book is available.

With regards to the Nazi satellite, if in the future someone wants me to start a thread on that subject then I will be happy to. Essentially, the launcher consisted of a V-2 as the first stage, and then a total of twenty-one Taifun anti-aircraft missiles clustered to form the three upper-stages. Though smaller, the launcher very much resembled the Jupiter-C developed by Werner von Braun to launch America's first satellite Explorer 1 in January 1958. The launch profile was the same. The upper-stages - which were contained inside a "tub" - were spun-up prior to launch to provide stabilization. After the V-2 reached its apogee, the upper-stages were fired one after the other.

The satellite itself was little more than a radio transmitter.

I carried out an analysis to determine whether the launcher could have sent a small satellite into orbit, and the figures confirm that it could have. I am not going to discuss any of this until a later date. I only mentioned it because perhaps Noteverythingisaconspiracy was hoping to embarrass me - or even discredit me - by mentioning the Aldebaran Project.

There is no "going around in circles", as I have indicated I don't plan on reading your book.  If the presentation you have provided in this thread is any indication of what your book contains, then you have no proofs.  All you have is conjecture, speculation or fantasy.  You have provided not one bit of evidence in this thread and you keep up the statements about "if "John" is correct".  That isn't a proof.  Until you provided hard evidence for your beliefs, I am done with you.  Respond if you feel the need to get the last word in, but I won't respond until you present hard data/evidence.  

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

15 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

I carried out an analysis to determine whether the launcher could have sent a small satellite into orbit, and the figures confirm that it could have. I am not going to discuss any of this until a later date. I only mentioned it because perhaps Noteverythingisaconspiracy was hoping to embarrass me - or even discredit me - by mentioning the Aldebaran Project.

How can I discredit you by linking to something you wrote yourself ?

[Derek Willis]

13 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

How can I discredit you by linking to something you wrote yourself ?

So what was your reason in providing a link to something that has no relevance at all to Project Apollo, other than implying I believe in aliens?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

42 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

So what was your reason in providing a link to something that has no relevance at all to Project Apollo,

To show that you have a history of promising much but delivering very little. 

42 minutes ago, Derek Willis said:

other than implying I believe in aliens?

Believing in aliens is a perfectly valid position, but pushing an unsupported idea about an interstellar probe from Aldebaran is quite another matter.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Noteverythingisaconspiracy

[Derek Willis]

12 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

To show that you have a history of promising much but delivering very little. 

Believing in aliens is a perfectly valid position, but pushing an unsupported idea about an interstellar probe from Aldebaran is quite another matter.

We shall see, on both counts.

As for your second comment, the fun of that investigation was discovering how it was the science writer Willy Ley who was pushing that idea. Why did he do that? Because he wanted to deflect attention away from the attempts - and possible success - the Nazis had in launching a satellite in 1945. Yes, we were led in the wrong direction for a while by the trail Ley had left, but we finally realized what he was doing.