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Eldorado

Christians persecuted worldwide, says UK

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Eldorado

"Pervasive persecution of Christians, sometimes amounting to genocide, is ongoing in parts of the Middle East, and has prompted an exodus in the past two decades, according to a report commissioned by the British foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt.

Millions of Christians in the region have been uprooted from their homes, and many have been killed, kidnapped, imprisoned and discriminated against, the report finds. It also highlights discrimination across south-east Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and in east Asia – often driven by state authoritarianism.

“The inconvenient truth,” the report finds, is “that the overwhelming majority (80%) of persecuted religious believers are Christians”."

Full report at the UK Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/02/persecution-driving-christians-out-of-middle-east-report

At the UK Daily Mail: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6986565/Persecution-Christians-modern-day-genocide-says-report.html

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Jodie.Lynne

A legitimate case of persecution. Unlike the Christians in the US, who feel 'persecuted' because they don't get to call the shots.

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Desertrat56
43 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

A legitimate case of persecution. Unlike the Christians in the US, who feel 'persecuted' because they don't get to call the shots.

No, in the U.S. the Christians are the persecutors.  I am suspicious of this article though.  The Gurdian and the Daily Mail are not the most respected news sources (though come to think of it there is no longer any such thing as a respected news source).

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Jodie.Lynne
6 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No, in the U.S. the Christians are the persecutors.  I am suspicious of this article though.  The Gurdian and the Daily Mail are not the most respected news sources (though come to think of it there is no longer any such thing as a respected news source).

True enough about those UK news sources.

And my comment about the poor persecuted US Christians was me being sarcastic.

Apparently, many US Christians feel that they have a monopoly on religiousness, and they feel put upon when they cannot steamroll over other folks beliefs. Or lack there of.

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and then
40 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Apparently, many US Christians feel that they have a monopoly on religiousness, and they feel put upon when they cannot steamroll over other folks beliefs. Or lack there of.

I have no doubt that "many" Christians do feel persecuted in the U.S. without a real understanding or appreciation for what REAL persecution is like.  The idea that Christians "steamroll" over the belief system of others in the U.S. is something I'd like to see some data or at least a citation or two for validity.  As a rule, the worst thing they tend to do is to be arrogant or annoying enough to share what they believe with strangers.  Oh, the calamity of it all :ph34r:   That being said, those who actually do continually "share" their faith with people who have expressed a desire to be left alone, are disobeying Christ Himself.  He made it very clear that once a person has heard the gospel and rejected it, they are to be left alone.  In fact, He told His disciples to "shake the dust off their sandals" when they leave such people.  Those who attempt to share what they believe to be GOOD news aren't called on to demand that anyone believe.  They are told to share and let those people decide.  End of story.  To do otherwise is to appear to be a beggar.  Christ doesn't beg, nor should His servants.

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, and then said:

I have no doubt that "many" Christians do feel persecuted in the U.S. without a real understanding or appreciation for what REAL persecution is like.  The idea that Christians "steamroll" over the belief system of others in the U.S. is something I'd like to see some data or at least a citation or two for validity.  As a rule, the worst thing they tend to do is to be arrogant or annoying enough to share what they believe with strangers.  Oh, the calamity of it all :ph34r:   That being said, those who actually do continually "share" their faith with people who have expressed a desire to be left alone, are disobeying Christ Himself.  He made it very clear that once a person has heard the gospel and rejected it, they are to be left alone.  In fact, He told His disciples to "shake the dust off their sandals" when they leave such people.  Those who attempt to share what they believe to be GOOD news aren't called on to demand that anyone believe.  They are told to share and let those people decide.  End of story.  To do otherwise is to appear to be a beggar.  Christ doesn't beg, nor should His servants.

https://www.beliefnet.com/news/is-there-christian-persecution-in-america.aspx

 

Many Christians in the U.S. feel that they are persecuted, because they have to share time with other faiths.

They feel persecuted, because if they choose to erect a monument to their faith, other faiths have the same right. Especially on public property.

Many Christians in the U.S. want prayer in schools. But ONLY prayers to their god. 

It seems that many Christians feel that giving equal time and platforms to other religions results in "Christian persecution".

 

A few years back, there was an article claiming that 'innocent' Christians were arrested for praying in public. At least, according to Christian news outlets.

But, those same articles failed to mention that the Christians had organized an illegal counter protest (no permits) to a legal LGBT event (they had permits).

When the "poor" Christians were arrested ( for illegal assembly, disrupting the peace, and other civil code violations) they were hailed as "martyrs for the cause" of Christianity.

 

I'm looking for the articles to back up my statements.

 

Found this:

https://slantedright.blogspot.com/2007/07/now-praying-gets-7-christians-arrested.html

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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XenoFish

My irish or cherokee one of the two says, don't bother. Any further argument will derail the thread. As for the topic. I'm sure people of every faith feel persecuted. If some of them resort to violence I'd think we'd all get along better. 

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and then
28 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

https://www.beliefnet.com/news/is-there-christian-persecution-in-america.aspx

 

Many Christians in the U.S. feel that they are persecuted, because they have to share time with other faiths.

They feel persecuted, because if they choose to erect a monument to their faith, other faiths have the same right. Especially on public property.

Many Christians in the U.S. want prayer in schools. But ONLY prayers to their god. 

It seems that many Christians feel that giving equal time and platforms to other religions results in "Christian persecution".

 

A few years back, there was an article claiming that 'innocent' Christians were arrested for praying in public. At least, according to Christian news outlets.

But, those same articles failed to mention that the Christians had organized an illegal counter protest (no permits) to a legal LGBT event (they had permits).

When the "poor" Christians were arrested ( for illegal assembly, disrupting the peace, and other civil code violations) they were hailed as "martyrs for the cause" of Christianity.

 

I'm looking for the articles to back up my statements.

 

Found this:

https://slantedright.blogspot.com/2007/07/now-praying-gets-7-christians-arrested.html

So you believe that Christians should be required to have permits before they can silently pray in public in areas where they believe there is a need for that prayer?  The instances noted in that article say nothing about creating a disturbance or becoming agitated or encumbering anyone's rights to behave as they desire.  It appears that the mere presence of Christians near such gatherings is crime enough to have them removed.  Are you sure you'd want that precedent set for all and sundry?  I have no doubt that gatherings of LGBT**** (I know there are other groups now represented, I'm just not sure how they are designated) would desire to NOT have people around whose religion condemns their behavior - who would? - but is that sufficient cause to actually have those people arrested and brought before the government when no violence or imposition beyond angering an opposing group is demonstrated?  That seems to be what happened in these instances.  If that LGBT group gathered without a permit and they were arrested and inconvenienced by local authorities, how would you react?  I would think they (the LGBT representatives) were being unjustly singled out, regardless how I might feel about their lifestyle or behaviors.  

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Jodie.Lynne
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

My irish or cherokee one of the two says, don't bother. Any further argument will derail the thread. As for the topic. I'm sure people of every faith feel persecuted. If some of them resort to violence I'd think we'd all get along better. 

I can see, that in some parts of the world, there is persecution of many faiths.

One could make an argument for Israeli persecution of Muslims, in Palestine & Gaza.

Persecution of Jews & Christians in Muslim countries.

But in the U.S., where freedom of religion is (supposedly) guaranteed, we see many of the Christian faith adopting the mantle of the persecuted, where that position is invalid.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

But in the U.S., where freedom of religion is (supposedly) guaranteed, we see many of the Christian faith adopting the mantle of the persecuted, where that position is invalid.

Probably has more to do with hurt feelings than anything. Seems a great many of them toss out that whole "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" commandments. Perhaps it's just easy to make yourself a martyr and emotionally fuel self-righteous hatred? I'm not going to toss the lot of them under the bus for the few.

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XenoFish

I guess the funniest thing is that they are all fighting over who has the best imaginary friend (god). 

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Jodie.Lynne
3 minutes ago, and then said:

So you believe that Christians should be required to have permits before they can silently pray in public in areas where they believe there is a need for that prayer?  The instances noted in that article say nothing about creating a disturbance or becoming agitated or encumbering anyone's rights to behave as they desire.  It appears that the mere presence of Christians near such gatherings is crime enough to have them removed.  Are you sure you'd want that precedent set for all and sundry?  I have no doubt that gatherings of LGBT**** (I know there are other groups now represented, I'm just not sure how they are designated) would desire to NOT have people around whose religion condemns their behavior - who would? - but is that sufficient cause to actually have those people arrested and brought before the government when no violence or imposition beyond angering an opposing group is demonstrated?  That seems to be what happened in these instances.  If that LGBT group gathered without a permit and they were arrested and inconvenienced by local authorities, how would you react?  I would think they (the LGBT representatives) were being unjustly singled out, regardless how I might feel about their lifestyle or behaviors.  

Nice strawman there! Are you a professional strawman builder?

 

I said nothing about silent prayer.

Now, how would you feel, if a Christian organization had a public prayer meeting (with all required permits obtained), and an LGBT group gathered across the street (without permits) to loudly voice their opinions?  Would you feel that the LGBT group was being persecuted if they were arrested for their actions?

And from the articles I read at the time, the LGBT group did NOT have the protesters arrested, it was the Law enforcement departments call.

 

And, in honesty, I am searching for the exact incident and articles. Both pro & con. Please be patient

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and then
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Seems a great many of them toss out that whole "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" commandments.

Indeed we do.  And that is to our shame when it is overdone.  Unfortunately, calling oneself after Christ's name does not render us anymore perfect than any other failed, sinful soul.  The biggest difference is that we are aware of our fallen condition and seek to become better by emulating the love of the one who pardoned us without any thought of payment.  

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and then
2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I said nothing about silent prayer.

No, you didn't.  I was referring to the statements in the article you posted.  They were arrested for praying silently near the site where the gathering occurred.  As to the situation you hypothesized, I'd think the LGBT group was being rude, yes, but I'd not expect them to be hassled by law enforcement.  They have a perfect right to disagree with anyone they choose.  The problem, as I see it, is the absolute lack of willingness to just coexist with those in our culture who have honest disagreements in their outlook on life.  The clashes are unnecessary.  The use of laws to actually criminalize publicly witnessed disagreements is ominous and can be a precursor to actual fascism, IMO.  If any group of believers - any faith - attempt to forcibly impose their standards on others then they are in the wrong and need to be called out for it.  

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XenoFish
Just now, and then said:

Indeed we do.  And that is to our shame when it is overdone.  Unfortunately, calling oneself after Christ's name does not render us anymore perfect than any other failed, sinful soul.  The biggest difference is that we are aware of our fallen condition and seek to become better by emulating the love of the one who pardoned us without any thought of payment.  

Because someone and a book told you that you're flawed. Christianity is a cult. It hooks you in with a guilt complex then offers you a placebo under certain "contracts". 

As for the act or intention of becoming a better person. Faith is not required. Sure the fear of eternal punishment might motivate people, but underneath it all that's a false improvement. Even when it comes to forgiveness, that also is a psychological placebo, a form of catharsis. Perhaps it takes a guilty consciousness to have faith in god.

There is a difference between doing a good deed because you can vs. doing a good deed because you want into heaven or god said so.

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

There is a difference between doing a good deed because you can vs. doing a good deed because you want into heaven or god said so.

Which is better:

Doing the right thing, because it is the right thing to do;

 

OR

 

Doing the right thing, because it is expected, or demanded of you?

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
to correct a typo, dammit!
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XenoFish

Don't worry AndThen. I already have a one way ticket to hell. I've "trafficked with demons" and performed acts of sorcery. I'm no different than a Salem Witch in god's eyes. Are is that the eyes of man?

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Which is better:

Doing the right thing, because it is the right thing to do;

 

OR

 

Doing the right thing, because it is expected, or demanded of you?

Same difference. 

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and then
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Because someone and a book told you that you're flawed. Christianity is a cult. It hooks you in with a guilt complex then offers you a placebo under certain "contracts". 

As for the act or intention of becoming a better person. Faith is not required. Sure the fear of eternal punishment might motivate people, but underneath it all that's a false improvement. Even when it comes to forgiveness, that also is a psychological placebo, a form of catharsis. Perhaps it takes a guilty consciousness to have faith in god.

There is a difference between doing a good deed because you can vs. doing a good deed because you want into heaven or god said so.

XFish, you'll get no arguments from me about a justification of what I sincerely believe.  I have no need to defend it to anyone and I don't stress over the opinions that others have for my faith.  They have a perfect right to believe as they wish.  So do I.  There is no need to fight or engage in derision over the beliefs of others unless they actually attempt to take away my right to assemble with others who believe as I.  That shouldn't even be a "thing" in America.  To the extent that it is becoming an issue, I believe Christians have as much a right to assemble peacefully as any other group whether as a faith body or a political body.  Freedom, remember?  Not freedom to enforce belief on anyone for any reason, just the freedom to gather with like-minded people.  I'd hope we could agree on that, at least.

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, and then said:

XFish, you'll get no arguments from me about a justification of what I sincerely believe.  I have no need to defend it to anyone and I don't stress over the opinions that others have for my faith.  They have a perfect right to believe as they wish.  So do I.  There is no need to fight or engage in derision over the beliefs of others unless they actually attempt to take away my right to assemble with others who believe as I.  That shouldn't even be a "thing" in America.  To the extent that it is becoming an issue, I believe Christians have as much a right to assemble peacefully as any other group whether as a faith body or a political body.  Freedom, remember?  Not freedom to enforce belief on anyone for any reason, just the freedom to gather with like-minded people.  I'd hope we could agree on that, at least.

Indeed. What you believe is your choice. Preaching what you believe is different. People have a right to gather, if they go about it the right way. On the topic of preaching, I see it a lot on UM. It get's old and I am weary. On a personal level I could careless what anyone believes, I do care what they do because of it. You have Christians who "live and let live" and then you basically have fanatics that ruin everything. Every religion has fanatics. 

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Jodie.Lynne
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Same difference. 

I don't see it that way.

Example:

You see someone drop some money, and they continue on their way.

You could:

A -say nothing, scoop up the cash and think "finder's keepers"

B- pick up the cash, call after the person and return it (because, you know, that's what "nice" people do)

C - same as 'B', but because you know how difficult times are, and you'd appreciate it if someone did the right thing for you.

 

Sometimes, we do things because they are 'expected' of us. Sometimes we do things, because it is right to do so, according to our internal moral compass.

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XenoFish

Let's not further derail this thread.

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susieice
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, and then said:

No, you didn't.  I was referring to the statements in the article you posted.  They were arrested for praying silently near the site where the gathering occurred.  As to the situation you hypothesized, I'd think the LGBT group was being rude, yes, but I'd not expect them to be hassled by law enforcement.  They have a perfect right to disagree with anyone they choose.  The problem, as I see it, is the absolute lack of willingness to just coexist with those in our culture who have honest disagreements in their outlook on life.  The clashes are unnecessary.  The use of laws to actually criminalize publicly witnessed disagreements is ominous and can be a precursor to actual fascism, IMO.  If any group of believers - any faith - attempt to forcibly impose their standards on others then they are in the wrong and need to be called out for it.  

I just want to throw in here, I know quite a few people in the LGBT community who have a firm belief in God. I don't judge. 

Edited by susieice
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susieice
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Don't worry AndThen. I already have a one way ticket to hell. I've "trafficked with demons" and performed acts of sorcery. I'm no different than a Salem Witch in god's eyes. Are is that the eyes of man?

You'd be surprised Xeno.

 

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

u have Christians who "live and let live" and then you basically have fanatics that ruin everything. Every religion has fanatics. 

Live and let live. You are clearly told it is not yours to judge.

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Truthseeker007

Every religious group will be persecuted because so many are competing with each other. And each one thinks they are persecuted.

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