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Lord Harry

Illegal Aliens

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ooooooooooooooh Lord Henry, how cute are you awwwww

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Big Jim
1 hour ago, OverSword said:

It occurs to me that laws such as alcohol prohibition and marijuana being illegal are broken or ignored by otherwise law abiding people because they are bad laws inconsistent with normal people’s sensibilities. Now the reason for the majority of people coming over the border illegally is because there are that many more jobs for these people than there are legal work visas. The obvious answer is not to waste resources making it harder for these people to come and work, the answer is to make it easier by increasing the work visas available for labor to cross the border and expedite the entire process. Doing this will eliminate the need for physical barriers and the cost of building, maintaining and patrolling them while all these legal alien workers pay taxes. Or we could just operate a multi billion dollar boondoggle that really benefits nobody like the war on drugs.

That would make sense if there were long lines of people applying for work visas and being turned away.  My guess is that almost 100% of people crossing the border illegally chose that as their first option and not because they were frustrated with a slow or inadequate legal process.  Building the wall and cracking down on people who over stay their visas should have the effect of encouraging more people to try to enter through legal channels.   Comparing illegal immigration to marijuana's legal status doesn't work for me.  Marijuana users don't take peoples' jobs, bring diseases or require interpreters for their kids in school.  For an illegal border crosser to be fairly compared to someone who likes to smoke on the weekends, the immigrants would have to go home on Monday morning.  Drug users don't receive nearly the amount of social services that illegals do.  I don't have to wait through a phone menu while someone explains to the stoner which buttons he should push.  Yes, they're both breaking laws but one group has a far greater impact on how we do things in this country.

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OverSword
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Big Jim said:

That would make sense if there were long lines of people applying for work visas and being turned away.  My guess is that almost 100% of people crossing the border illegally chose that as their first option and not because they were frustrated with a slow or inadequate legal process.  Building the wall and cracking down on people who over stay their visas should have the effect of encouraging more people to try to enter through legal channels.   Comparing illegal immigration to marijuana's legal status doesn't work for me.  Marijuana users don't take peoples' jobs, bring diseases or require interpreters for their kids in school.  For an illegal border crosser to be fairly compared to someone who likes to smoke on the weekends, the immigrants would have to go home on Monday morning.  Drug users don't receive nearly the amount of social services that illegals do.  I don't have to wait through a phone menu while someone explains to the stoner which buttons he should push.  Yes, they're both breaking laws but one group has a far greater impact on how we do things in this country.

But if it’s universally known that there are enough work visas and less red tape the story will change and more people will take the legitimate route. We can still crack down on illegal aliens and they who employ them but it makes zero sense to continue down the current path.

My point about marijuana and alcohol laws being complete failures was to point out that laws that don’t make sense tend not to be obeyed. The rate at which our foreign workers break the law just to come to work is a good indicator that the current law/system is greatly flawed.

Edited by OverSword

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aztek
Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, OverSword said:

But if it’s universally known that there are enough work visas and less red tape the story will change and more people will take the legitimate route. We can still crack down on illegal aliens and they who employ them but it makes zero sense to continue down the current path.

My point about marijuana and alcohol laws being complete failures was to point out that laws that don’t make sense tend not to be obeyed. The rate at which our foreign workers break the law just to come to work is a good indicator that the current law/system is greatly flawed.

wrong, most do not want to be legal, they do not want to owe taxes,  some pay them, but majority does not, have their names in databases, having to buy medical insurance, being illegal is so much easier and they have benefits that they would not have if they were legal.  they can avoid paying bills , and never be put on collection,  especially in sanctuary cities.

risk of being deported is nothing compared to benefits, especially since our border is a revolving door, i work with contractors for over 2 decades i've talked to illegals, this is what they told me. it a small part actually from the top of my head

you assume they want to follow laws, but it is hard, it is nothing like that.   by your logic if it is too hard to get driver license we should just drive without one,  ccw, who needs it, it is too hard to get, why not carry without it? why in your mind illegals get a pass for ignoring laws, and we should not??

Edited by aztek
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Big Jim
58 minutes ago, OverSword said:

But if it’s universally known that there are enough work visas and less red tape the story will change and more people will take the legitimate route. We can still crack down on illegal aliens and they who employ them but it makes zero sense to continue down the current path.

My point about marijuana and alcohol laws being complete failures was to point out that laws that don’t make sense tend not to be obeyed. The rate at which our foreign workers break the law just to come to work is a good indicator that the current law/system is greatly flawed.

Nothing is ever universally known, even with all the means we have to communicate.  So what chance is there of the intricacies of our immigration laws being known throughout Mexico and Central America?  Everyone knows it's wrong to steal, but we still safeguard everything of value.   No matter what other changes we make to encourage people to come legally we still need deterrents.  Not everyone is coming in for the purpose of working and raising a family.  One of the biggest flaws in the current system is that people can flout it at will with no consequences.  Walls and deportations can help change that.

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OverSword
30 minutes ago, aztek said:

You assume they want to follow laws, but it is hard, it is nothing like that.   by your logic if it is too hard to get driver license we should just drive without one

And you believe that if it was exceedingly difficult to get a drivers license or let’s say they only issued 2/3 the number of licenses as there were drivers that there wouldn’t be thousands of people driving without a license?

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aztek
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And you believe that if it was exceedingly difficult to get a drivers license or let’s say they only issued 2/3 the number of licenses as there were drivers that there wouldn’t be thousands of people driving without a license?

so you are justifying braking laws then. so then why do we bother following them at all? 

Edited by aztek
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OverSword

Regardless of any of the rants on here issuing more work visas would greatly relieve this issue. Legalizing and regulating is a historically proven method of reducing crime. I agree that crossing the border illegally is wrong for multiple reasons but arresting, prosecuting, jailing and deporting is proven ineffective.

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aztek
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Regardless of any of the rants on here issuing more work visas would greatly relieve this issue. Legalizing and regulating is a historically proven method of reducing crime. I agree that crossing the border illegally is wrong for multiple reasons but arresting, prosecuting, jailing and deporting is proven ineffective.

yes, under previous administrations and current laws it sure is, but things need to change, and it will be much much more effective

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OverSword
5 minutes ago, aztek said:

so you are justifying braking laws then. so then why do we bother following them at all? 

There are laws that make sense and laws that increase the problem. Working towards a solution that costs the least and makes everything run smoother is a superior solution 

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Big Jim
2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And you believe that if it was exceedingly difficult to get a drivers license or let’s say they only issued 2/3 the number of licenses as there were drivers that there wouldn’t be thousands of people driving without a license?

They only issue so many hunting licenses in some places, often by lottery.  But they still crack down on poachers.  Not everyone wins or gets what they want.  There are millions more wanting to come to America than we can possibly accommodate.  The needs of the immigrants are secondary to the needs of the United States.  Especially when we have to support them.  We have a right to look out for our own interests first.  When there are no Americans in need, homeless or hungry, when every window has a help wanted sign, then maybe we can welcome the rest of the world.

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aztek
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

There are laws that make sense and laws that increase the problem. Working towards a solution that costs the least and makes everything run smoother is a superior solution 

lets make robbery legal, i mean people still rob, and laws do not stop them, it's only creating problems,  so lets make it legal , it is hard to make money, so lets make it legal to steal from others, it is so much easier, we wont have to deal with arresting, jailing, courts.....

how about you leaving your car unlocked as well as your house, let them just come it and take whatever they want, that is exactly what you are doing by justifying illegal immigration, and every problem that comes with it

Edited by aztek
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OverSword
Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

They only issue so many hunting licenses in some places, often by lottery.  But they still crack down on poachers.  Not everyone wins or gets what they want.  There are millions more wanting to come to America than we can possibly accommodate.  The needs of the immigrants are secondary to the needs of the United States.  Especially when we have to support them.  We have a right to look out for our own interests first.  When there are no Americans in need, homeless or hungry, when every window has a help wanted sign, then maybe we can welcome the rest of the world.

And yet if the jobs weren’t here they wouldn’t come. Let the market decide and make laws that accommodate the efficiency of the market. It’s simple supply and demand economics.

they crack down on poachers because they need to manage the size of the herd. So if they don’t allow enough hunting then too many deer. We have more jobs suitable for migrant workers than workers allowed in the country. Solution? Let more migrant workers in 

Edited by OverSword
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OverSword
2 minutes ago, aztek said:

lets make robbery legal, i mean people still rob, and laws do not stop them, it's only creating problems,  so lets make it legal , it is hard to make money, so lets make it legal to steal from others, it is so much easier, we wont have to deal with arresting, jailing, courts.....

Apples meet oranges

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aztek
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And yet if the jobs weren’t here they wouldn’t come. 

then lets turn usa into   stiholes they come from where there are  no jobs,

Edited by aztek
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Big Jim
1 minute ago, aztek said:

lets make robbery legal, i mean people still rob, and laws do not stop them, it's only creating problems,  so lets make it legal 

I get where you're coming from.  As Butch Cassidy said (in the movie), "If he'd just pay me what he's spending to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him."   It sounds good, but it doesn't work in the long run.  Making it easier for people to flood into our country isn't sustainable either.

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aztek
3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Apples meet oranges

they do in a  fruit salad

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aztek
2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I get where you're coming from.  As Butch Cassidy said (in the movie), "If he'd just pay me what he's spending to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him."   It sounds good, but it doesn't work in the long run.  Making it easier for people to flood into our country isn't sustainable either.

it does not even sound good. excusing crime leads to more crime, not less

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OverSword
1 minute ago, Big Jim said:

I get where you're coming from.  As Butch Cassidy said (in the movie), "If he'd just pay me what he's spending to stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him."   It sounds good, but it doesn't work in the long run.  Making it easier for people to flood into our country isn't sustainable either.

And who says let in just everyone? I said increase the number of visas issued. Not the same thing as importing everyone in the world forever.

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Big Jim
8 minutes ago, OverSword said:

We have more jobs suitable for migrant workers than workers allowed in the country. Solution? Let more migrant workers in 

I could agree if they all wanted to work, but it seems like most just want to ride the gravy train.  That's what needs to stop and the place to stop it is at the border.

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OverSword
1 minute ago, aztek said:

it does not even sound good. excusing crime leads to more crime, not less

Has legalizing marijuana led to more crime? It’s not the same as legalizing murder and rape for crying out loud 

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Big Jim
1 minute ago, OverSword said:

And who says let in just everyone? I said increase the number of visas issued. Not the same thing as importing everyone in the world forever.

Without a wall and other deterrents, what's to stop them?

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OverSword
2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

I could agree if they all wanted to work, but it seems like most just want to ride the gravy train.  That's what needs to stop and the place to stop it is at the border.

That’s bull for starters and easily addressed. If you’re here on a work visa you are not entitled to any government benefits 

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Big Jim
11 minutes ago, OverSword said:

they crack down on poachers because they need to manage the size of the herd.

They manage the herd through the number of licenses issued.  They crack down on poachers because they're breaking the law.

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