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Alabama abortion ban: Republican senate

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Jerry Gallo
10 hours ago, Agent0range said:

Actually it was not added, it was proposed, and it failed 11-21.  Rape and incest ARE NOT exceptions.  

So, lawmakers in Alabama believe that if a 12 year old girl is raped by her father, and becomes pregnant, she should be forced to have that baby.  If a doctor believes she should not have to have that baby, and performs an abortion, that doctor can be sentenced to 99 years in prison.  Anyone who doesn't think that is absolute madness..is absolutely mad.

I stand corrected, my apologies to all. Assumed 200834-1 was part of bill, did not see that 201132-1 was same nomenclature and failed.

That said, Gov. Ivey herself said that the law is likely unenforceable and the reason they voted against the Singleton amendment was to present a clean bill. I translate that to mean they want as much outrage as possible to push SCOTUS to review Roe v Wade. Knowing full well that the new law will see many a courtroom before any abortion is prevented, including rape and incest inspired ones, the histrionics are exactly what the Alabama legislature wants - in other words this is strategic in the big picture more than an attempt to force rape and incest victims to bear a monster's child.

Now, the questions I have for you are these. 1) Do you agree that Roe v Wade was intended for first trimester abortions only and if not, what in the text of the law tells you otherwise? 2) Do you endorse any abortion up to the point of full term labor without exception, as the NY law permits?  

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docyabut2
2 hours ago, Kismit said:

Sorry, She won’t stop abortions. 

Why can`nt young women just use birth control pills?  Religion supported it in plan parent hood clinics, they just don't support or pay for  abortions ,  killings babies.:(

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aztek
11 hours ago, Merc14 said:

This is the hysterical response I was talking about. 

...............

 

like most if not all of his responses, he completely ignores that ban only applies to surgical abortions,  if i had any tiny doubts he was a shill before, this completely removed any.

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aztek
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Why can`nt young women just use birth control pills?  Religion supported it in plan parent hood clinics, they just don't support or pay for  abortions ,  killings babies.:(

thank madona for sexual revolution, thank Hollywood for promoting it, and removing any concept of consequence or responsibility.

Edited by aztek
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Earl.Of.Trumps

Beyond a doubt,,,  "abortion" is the most dangerous subject matter to thread in a forum.  opinions are so diverse. and I do admit that in my case, I usually have a strong opinion, but....

Not this case.

 

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Jerry Gallo
21 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Beyond a doubt,,,  "abortion" is the most dangerous subject matter to thread in a forum.  opinions are so diverse. and I do admit that in my case, I usually have a strong opinion, but....

Not this case.

 

Rough seas for sure, but a topic that shouldn't be avoided because people cannot control vitriol. Same for racism, religion and the rest of politics.

Where these things usually go south is the all or nothing approach and the tactics required to hold those views. As a practical matter, my religious beliefs and my stance on abortion are mutually exclusive, even as it might be a personal detriment within my circles or earn me faux insults that "some old book" is the sole basis of my reasoning. I can accept the risk I take with disappointment or being kicked to the curb from my own "group" if I differ on certain aspects within a topic. Ever see such a phenomenon from the left?

At the end of the day, every topic has unanswered questions. Here, two jump out. 1) Did we have the morning after pill in 1973? 2) Did SCOTUS intend for abortion past the first trimester? The answer to both is no, although the latter is my opinion. There are a dozen other questions specifically about the Roe decision that I won't even go into, in part due to time and in part, to not assist in the thread going south rehashing 46 years of legislating via judicial fiat.

All that aside, the third question is, what does the left want? Practical concession could give them most of what they want. All or nothing will result in a war, here and "out there". Alabama fired a warning shot, let's see how the left responds. 

 

 

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Dark_Grey
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

Why can`nt young women just use birth control pills?  Religion supported it in plan parent hood clinics, they just don't support or pay for  abortions ,  killings babies.:(

Birth control pills were supposed to be the end of abortions, more or less. For the first time in history, women were able to "take control" of their sexuality by simply popping a pill and not having to worry about unwanted pregnancies ever again. 

Yet here we are, 40 some odd years later and now women are marching in the streets for the right to kill unborn children. Apparently, popping a pill is not as convenient as a trip to the human slaughter house? Condoms, spermicide, birth control patches, cervix "cups", the morning after pill, etc. etc. The free market has provided many convenient and cheap options to prevent pregnancy so why is abortion not only common, but being pushed by legislators? 

The only real argument by the anti-life crowd seems to be related to incestuous and/or rape pregnancies. OK, I get that - but how many abortions in America fall in to those categories? Anyone?

ETA--

I would almost be completely on board with abortions if people didn't use the term "abortion" to describe it. Say "killing a child" instead when making arguments for it. Words have power and the reluctance of pro-abortionists to call it what it is makes me question how much they really support it. Sterilized language separates you from the reality. Imagining cutting a tiny spinal cord with shearing scissors or shooting a wee baby through a clear tube in to a blender makes me queasy as well. 

Edited by Dark_Grey
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aztek
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

Birth control pills were supposed to be the end of abortions, more or less. For the first time in history, women were able to "take control" of their sexuality by simply popping a pill and not having to worry about unwanted pregnancies ever again. 

 

and computers were supposed to end mountains of paperwork, yet it is nothing like intended, airbags,  crumple zones,and abs were supposed to make cars safe but it made drivers more careless, thus accidents are on the rise,   no one takes into account law of unintended consequences

btw those birth control pills aren't exactly harmless either .

Edited by aztek
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darkmoonlady
Posted (edited)
On 5/15/2019 at 9:02 AM, and then said:

Is the law just passed in New York, political theater?  I doubt it would be overturned.  It will simply add weight to the "precedent" of legal "choices" for women.  It is an ABOMINATION to legalize the killing of a child that could be born alive within hours and regardless what propaganda is spewed by the Left that is exactly what that law allows.  IMO the state of New York has damned its collective soul with that law.  They can ignore and deny the existence of God but they will not ignore His justice when it comes on them.  He is not mocked.  

Nope. Not even close. How is it grown adults believe this crap? Seriously abortions past the 21st week are 1.3 percent of all abortions. Anything past that is done for severe medical issues like preeclampsia which many times can be fatal if the mother doesn't respond to medication, in cases of lack of fetal brain or brain stem development, and other profound anomalies that aren't compatible with life outside the womb. 

The idiot "conversation" that keeps being brought up is only brought up by Trump and it's made up, completely. Infanticide is illegal in every state and doctors are practicing in hospitals with ethics boards which would never allow any of that nonsense. It's literally propaganda to get his followers upset and hand over more donations. It literally is a figment of his imagination. None of the bills dealing with abortion laws allow that ever. 

What actually happens is parents of wanted babies go for their 20 week appointments which includes a scan with ultrasound to look for fetal anomalies as they are developed enough by then to check. Out of millions of pregnancies a few hopeful moms get told something came up. Further tests are done and in those an even smaller percentage of them after tests rule out any chance of hope, are told their fetus is non viable. There are unfortunately a number of these anomalies that can happen in development and then the mother has to decide to either terminate or give birth to a still borne, as some pregnancies left to continue with anomalies like these die en utero. Or she doesn't have a choice because her own health is in danger. None of those are infanticide and it's a disgusting lie told over and over and doesn't make the lie true. It's women suffering the loss of a child through no fault of their own. 

So quit spreading a stupid vicious lie and actually read what these women go through. 

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a19994466/20-week-abortion/

Edited by darkmoonlady
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Jerry Gallo
23 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Nope. Not even close. How is it grown adults believe this crap? Seriously abortions past the 21st week are 1.3 percent of all abortions. Anything past that is done for severe medical issues like preeclampsia which many times can be fatal if the mother doesn't respond to medication, in cases of lack of fetal brain or brain stem development, and other profound anomalies that aren't compatible with life outside the womb. 

The idiot "conversation" that keeps being brought up is only brought up by Trump and it's made up, completely. Infanticide is illegal in every state and doctors are practicing in hospitals with ethics boards which would never allow any of that nonsense. It's literally propaganda to get his followers upset and hand over more donations. It literally is a figment of his imagination. None of the bills dealing with abortion laws allow that ever. 

What actually happens is parents of wanted babies go for their 20 week appointments which includes a scan with ultrasound to look for fetal anomalies as they are developed enough by then to check. Out of millions of pregnancies a few hopeful moms get told something came up. Further tests are done and in those an even smaller percentage of them after tests rule out any chance of hope, are told their fetus is non viable. There are unfortunately a number of these anomalies that can happen in development and then the mother has to decide to either terminate or give birth to a still borne, as some pregnancies left to continue with anomalies like these die en utero. Or she doesn't have a choice because her own health is in danger. None of those are infanticide and it's a disgusting lie told over and over and doesn't make the lie true. It's women suffering the loss of a child through no fault of their own. 

So quit spreading a stupid vicious like and actually read what these women go through. 

https://www.womenshealthmag.com/health/a19994466/20-week-abortion/

A few things here...

1. 1.3% is over 8300 abortions. Let's not try to minimize the scope by using a small percentage. For comparison, how many measles deaths every year in the US? The dust up over vaccinations is huge, even as the number of deaths from measles since 2015 was ZERO.

2. Many states have medical exceptions for the mother and many people have accepted that exception. So let's not generalize that everyone is barbaric or insensitive to what these women go through.

3. Let's also not pretend all these "severe medical issues" are incompatible with life. Some are things like Down's, dwarfism, or other non-life threatening defects.

4. It would take zero effort to include exceptions in any bill for incompatible with life issues for the baby, so why not simply include it to avoid any ambiguity and argument? I mean, I could relent if a doctor meets the obligation of proving the baby couldn't live outside the womb, but would you relent on banning those after 21 weeks for non-life threatening defects?

5. What percentage of life-threatening defects (for the baby) are learned in weeks, say, 32-40 versus 21-32?

6. Similar to the DP, where opponents point to "getting it wrong", how often do doctors get it wrong with misdiagnosis? How many women are talked into abortions that were unnecessary?

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aztek
1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said:

Nope. Not even close. How is it grown adults believe this crap?

yep, closer than you think,  Virginia governor openly says so in the video, how can an adult just dismiss it?  only an ignorant one

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

Birth control pills were supposed to be the end of abortions, more or less. For the first time in history, women were able to "take control" of their sexuality by simply popping a pill and not having to worry about unwanted pregnancies ever again. 

Yet here we are, 40 some odd years later and now women are marching in the streets for the right to kill unborn children. Apparently, popping a pill is not as convenient as a trip to the human slaughter house? Condoms, spermicide, birth control patches, cervix "cups", the morning after pill, etc. etc. The free market has provided many convenient and cheap options to prevent pregnancy so why is abortion not only common, but being pushed by legislators? 

Those pills are not free Dark.  Not everybody can afford them, and there is contention about insurance covering the cost.  The hormone manipulation is not inconsequential and some women can develop negative effects.  

Maybe the free market should develop an orgasm pill for men.  Those who desire just pop a pill, crawl under the sheets with a Playboy and poof, no more need for abortions, and maybe fewer rapes as well.

The part of this that seriously grinds my gears is the total lack of shared responsibility.  Where does the sperm come from?  Swimming pools?  Not likely.  Where is the mature and strong response from men?  How many come forward and volunteer to be a father and support a child?  That would stop a lot of abortions right there.    If some want to be irresponsible boys their whole lives, then they should be treated like boys and not given the benefits of adulthood. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps

Quote of the day:  "Maybe the free market should develop an orgasm pill for men."     Tateopa, circa nowImage result for laughing

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aztek
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Those pills are not free Dark.  Not everybody can afford them, and there is contention about insurance covering the cost.  The hormone manipulation is not inconsequential and some women can develop negative effects.  

Maybe the free market should develop an orgasm pill for men.  Those who desire just pop a pill, crawl under the sheets with a Playboy and poof, no more need for abortions, and maybe fewer rapes as well.

The part of this that seriously grinds my gears is the total lack of shared responsibility.  Where does the sperm come from?  Swimming pools?  Not likely.  Where is the mature and strong response from men?  How many come forward and volunteer to be a father and support a child?  That would stop a lot of abortions right there.    If some want to be irresponsible boys their whole lives, then they should be treated like boys and not given the benefits of adulthood. 

parental licensing 

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darkmoonlady
2 hours ago, aztek said:

yep, closer than you think,  Virginia governor openly says so in the video, how can an adult just dismiss it?  only an ignorant one

Based on zero evidence. Just because someone believes something to be true doesn't make it true (or the whole conspiracy board on this site wouldn't exist). A doctor committing infanticide as Trump repeats never happens, it's complete nonsense. There are strict laws in place, ethics boards etc. 

There is only one state with one or two doctors performing abortion past the 30th week, and they are in Colorado. At a hospital. The kind of fever nightmare Trump talks about doesn't exist. It's women going there with medical evidence in hand, multiple tests showing clear-cut problems. 

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Robotic Jew
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Those pills are not free Dark.  Not everybody can afford them, and there is contention about insurance covering the cost.  The hormone manipulation is not inconsequential and some women can develop negative effects.  

Maybe the free market should develop an orgasm pill for men.  Those who desire just pop a pill, crawl under the sheets with a Playboy and poof, no more need for abortions, and maybe fewer rapes as well.

The part of this that seriously grinds my gears is the total lack of shared responsibility.  Where does the sperm come from?  Swimming pools?  Not likely.  Where is the mature and strong response from men?  How many come forward and volunteer to be a father and support a child?  That would stop a lot of abortions right there.    If some want to be irresponsible boys their whole lives, then they should be treated like boys and not given the benefits of adulthood. 

I'd buy it. Who needs all the extra work?

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aztek
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Based on zero evidence.

based on what governor said.  it's in the video,  from the horses mouth, can't get better evidence than that. 

Edited by aztek

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docyabut2

oh gee all there is a lot of birth control with out abortions killing those poor babies:(

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Michelle

It's amazing people don't know it has and does happen. They just aren't always caught.

Doctor found guilty of murdering infants in late-term abortions

Dr. Kermit Gosnell was found guilty on Monday of murdering three babies during abortions at a Philadelphia clinic serving low-income women in a case that cast a spotlight on the controversial practice of late-term abortions.

Gosnell, 72, who ran the now-shuttered Women's Medical Society Clinic, faces the possibility of the death penalty. The case focused on whether the infants were born alive and then killed.

cont...

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2013-05-13-sns-rt-us-usa-philadelphia-clinicbre94c0jc-20130513-story.html

 

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darkmoonlady
3 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

A few things here...

1. 1.3% is over 8300 abortions. Let's not try to minimize the scope by using a small percentage. For comparison, how many measles deaths every year in the US? The dust up over vaccinations is huge, even as the number of deaths from measles since 2015 was ZERO.

2. Many states have medical exceptions for the mother and many people have accepted that exception. So let's not generalize that everyone is barbaric or insensitive to what these women go through.

3. Let's also not pretend all these "severe medical issues" are incompatible with life. Some are things like Down's, dwarfism, or other non-life threatening defects.

4. It would take zero effort to include exceptions in any bill for incompatible with life issues for the baby, so why not simply include it to avoid any ambiguity and argument? I mean, I could relent if a doctor meets the obligation of proving the baby couldn't live outside the womb, but would you relent on banning those after 21 weeks for non-life threatening defects?

5. What percentage of life-threatening defects (for the baby) are learned in weeks, say, 32-40 versus 21-32?

6. Similar to the DP, where opponents point to "getting it wrong", how often do doctors get it wrong with misdiagnosis? How many women are talked into abortions that were unnecessary?

Compared to the rate of birth defects 8300 is a small number meaning parents often choose to go through with a pregnancy with liveable, survivable issues and are only choosing abortion for ones that aren't. Ask me how I know? I was born with a profound birth defect disability and have done the research. People who decide to abort for Down syndrome (it's not Down's) do so for a myriad of reasons and it's a personal choice for parents who will have to care for a disabled child their whole lives. Not everyone is capable of doing that. I have a distant relative who found out early enough to terminate their child had profound disabilities. They chose not to terminate. He will need care his whole life, is non verbal and has had to go through numerous painful surgeries and has a string of more surgeries as he grows. They made the choice to keep him and he is here and they love him. He also suffers pain and seizures and his quality of life no matter how hard they work is not good. Some parents make a choice to terminate and some don't, it's personal. Are you capable of caring for a profoundly disabled child yourself? 

The 19/20 week scan is the standard for diagnosing IF there is a possible issue it isn't the only test, it's just the first during crucial development where they can see if a problem exists, did you not bother to read the article I posted? 

Women aren't talked into abortions at that stage, they are freaking out and begging for more tests to make absolutely sure there isn't a chance. Imagine looking at test results that say your wanted baby has no brain stem, or their organs are all outside their body? The absolute horror and you think doctors are what twirling their mustache and figuring out how to trick women? Learn about fetal development and birth defects and the awful things that can happen. Stop perpetuating fear mongering and listen to women who went through it. There are numerous stories online written by the parents it happened to. 

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docyabut2

ok there is 75 % of people that support pro life will take over some day . 

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darkmoonlady
2 minutes ago, Michelle said:

It's amazing people don't know it has and does happen. They just aren't always caught.

Doctor found guilty of murdering infants in late-term abortions

Dr. Kermit Gosnell was found guilty on Monday of murdering three babies during abortions at a Philadelphia clinic serving low-income women in a case that cast a spotlight on the controversial practice of late-term abortions.

Gosnell, 72, who ran the now-shuttered Women's Medical Society Clinic, faces the possibility of the death penalty. The case focused on whether the infants were born alive and then killed.

cont...

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2013-05-13-sns-rt-us-usa-philadelphia-clinicbre94c0jc-20130513-story.html

 

He was running an underground clinic that had long ago lost it's license, he was arrested and convicted. Anti abortion folks love to bring up this case as if this reflects actual licensed doctors operating at hospitals and not an abberation. 

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aztek
2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

ok there is 75 % of people that support pro life will take over some day . 

if it is really is 75% they do not have to wait for some day. they need to take over now

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Michelle
2 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

He was running an underground clinic that had long ago lost it's license, he was arrested and convicted. Anti abortion folks love to bring up this case as if this reflects actual licensed doctors operating at hospitals and not an abberation. 

I'm pro-choice. I can also realistically see a need for more regulations. Abortions aren't provided in hospitals. They are provided in clinics...sometimes with very little regulations.

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docyabut2
Posted (edited)

it is sad the doctors have to do those abortions in the past by a law  :( you can't get them out of  it until the supreme  court can over rule rode v wade  

Edited by docyabut2

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