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US apparently readying for Iran attack

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pallidin
1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

Man you don't even know what you're talking about.  Read up on OPEC and the petrodollar influence.  Read up on Halliburton and Dick Cheney's involvement.  Don't come back with silly questions, come back with opinions after you've read.  It's part of economic imperialism Alchopwn mentioned.

Take this...

 

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pallidin

BRD, I am a dolphin and honey badger hybrid.

Be careful of the latter.

I distaste absurdity.

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Tatetopa
On 5/17/2019 at 7:15 AM, and then said:

Not so amusing how people choose to regard any information coming from Iran as truth while denying any information from the U.S. 

Couldn't resist.  Are we not the loudest critics of our fake news?  Why should anybody else believe anything coming out of the US if at least  half of us don't.  The press and the administration have twisted the truth so often, it is hard to tell what it is.  Mind you, I am not blaming this all on the Prez because the Press is in it deep.   Still, the President, has his own contributions to our lack of credibility . 

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and then
13 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Couldn't resist.  Are we not the loudest critics of our fake news?  Why should anybody else believe anything coming out of the US if at least  half of us don't.  The press and the administration have twisted the truth so often, it is hard to tell what it is.  Mind you, I am not blaming this all on the Prez because the Press is in it deep.   Still, the President, has his own contributions to our lack of credibility . 

Your perspective would fit if people viewed Iran as skeptically, Tat.  My point is that many here see Iran as more trustworthy than America.  A regime that hangs gay men from CRANES and imprisons people for dissent.  Nice, eh?  I think it says far more about those holding the opinions than it does America.

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pallidin
1 hour ago, and then said:

Your perspective would fit if people viewed Iran as skeptically, Tat.  My point is that many here see Iran as more trustworthy than America.  A regime that hangs gay men from CRANES and imprisons people for dissent.  Nice, eh?  I think it says far more about those holding the opinions than it does America.

Yeah, the Iranian regime seems to have implemented serious efforts to expand the b****** Sharia law... well beyond Iran's borders. 

 

 

 

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and then
1 minute ago, pallidin said:

Yeah, the Iranian regime seems to have implemented serious efforts to expand the b****** Sharia law... well beyond Iran's borders. 

 

 

 

They've never made any secret of their goal of "spreading the revolution".  What disgusts me are those who spew snark at MY country while seeming to believe and respect the evil old men that run that one.  They aren't worth the carbon footprint they create...IMO...

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pallidin
Just now, and then said:

They've never made any secret of their goal of "spreading the revolution".  What disgusts me are those who spew snark at MY country while seeming to believe and respect the evil old men that run that one.  They aren't worth the carbon footprint they create...IMO...

Indeed, they ARE truly disgusting, with absolutely no value to humanity.

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pallidin

Can someone, anyone, tell me the value of Sharia law in modern society?

If you can, please offer your opinion.

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Tatetopa
22 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

China might but Russia isnt as likely, historically Russia and Iran have been rivals more then they be allies as both want to be the dominant regional power in central Asia.  While they are allies of convience for now it's unlikely they would come to each others rescue if stuff really got bad.

Neither Russia or China could directly intervene in any conflict between Iran and America.  Russia, as it currently is, is barely a shadow of the USSR by just about every single metric imaginable.  Russia just simply doesnt have the man power or production capability to fight a prolonged war against America or the west so unless Russia is convinced they could win before America begins full mobilization they wont get involved.  All of that is ignoring the lack of logistical ability Russia currently has to support truly large troop deployments far from Russia.  China though does have the man power and production ability to fight a prolonged war but has near zero ability to project any military might other then immediately outside mainland China.

Russia and China would almost certainly supply weapons to Iran but they wouldnt supply top tier weapon systems as that would be far too risky.  Russian weapon exports depend heavily on the claim that they can counter/match American weapon systems but they have never truly been tested against American weapon systems, by American weapon systems I mean the non-export variants.  Even if the are able to counter American weapon systems if the Iranians use them poorly and do a poor showing of them that would drastically hurt Russian weapon exports also showing the capabilities of these weapon systems let alone the risk of capture would allow America to make better countermeasures.  For China it is more of keeping their top tier weapon systems abilities and vulnerabilities a secret then anything else.

Also the assumption of a prolonged military conflict with Iran might not be justified.  The US has fought with Iran before post Iranian revolution and it was a short limited conflict with disproportionate Iranian losses.  There is no reason to believe any conflict this time would last any longer especially if Irans ability to close the straights is completely neutralized.

Man, if I was in their shoes, I would not want any military conflict at all. Instead, I would want to weaken the US internally, separate it from long term allies, compete hard in current financial markets, and plan to dominate in future technology fields. 

I would offer US multinational companies incentives  to move plants and do more business in the rest of the world.  If I could even get the US to hold on to older, less efficient technologies all the better.  I would focus resources on my country's educational system and  swamp the US economically with a better trained and innovative work force.  I would push adverse business cycles in the US and let their farmers and manufacturing plants get whipsawed out of business.

I would do what I could to keep stumbling blocks coming on the world stage. NATO, NK, Iran, Venezuela, where to meet the Irish Prime Minister, etc.  Bluff then capitulate and force the US to spend more time and money than their opponents. Eventually the US might screw up, lose support at home and abroad, and as a bonus, all distractions, even  trivial ones take time and money. 

  I would spread so much conflicting information from false sources that no citizen was sure what to believe any more. I would meddle in a few elections, and spread false information about one side to the other side.  

 I would help convince the Shia and Sunni  factions, no wait I mean liberal and conservative factions that they are their own worst enemies and each is an enemy of the true principles of the nation.  Put the hard sell on taking up arms to destroy the other faction before it destroys all that is good and noble. 

Then sit back and wait,  It might take five or ten years, or even a generation, but it is very cheap and risk is low.  (some folks do plan the long game). 

It is not likely to bring about total collapse, but weakening  the US and leaving them absorbed with troubles at home makes a mighty big hole to fill on the world stage.

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Tatetopa
6 minutes ago, pallidin said:

Can someone, anyone, tell me the value of Sharia law in modern society?

If you can, please offer your opinion.

You might have your answer there.  Sharia law is not implemented in a modern society.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, and then said:

My point is that many here see Iran as more trustworthy than America.

They might but they are wrong. IMO.

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quiXilver
2 hours ago, pallidin said:

Can someone, anyone, tell me the value of Sharia law in modern society?

If you can, please offer your opinion.

That could make for a very engaging and contentious thread of its own.

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Black Red Devil
2 hours ago, and then said:

They've never made any secret of their goal of "spreading the revolution".  What disgusts me are those who spew snark at MY country while seeming to believe and respect the evil old men that run that one.  They aren't worth the carbon footprint they create...IMO...

Said by the religious nutjob who believes in wars as a means for hegemony and the death of millions...if necessary.

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and then
1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

Said by the religious nutjob who believes in wars as a means for hegemony and the death of millions...if necessary.

Cite the post where I said such a thing or even implied it.  Your twisted take on life isn't to be confused with the reality of my statements.  You, sir, are a liar and if you have ANY dignity or integrity you will PROVE what you just accused me of... so, the ball is in your court, Slick.  Put up or be shown in front of anyone here who is thoughtful and nonbiased to be an opinionated, ignorant and hateful HACK.

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Grey Area

 

6 hours ago, and then said:

My point is that many here see Iran as more trustworthy than America.  A regime that hangs gay men from CRANES and imprisons people for dissent.  Nice, eh?  I think it says far more about those holding the opinions than it does America.

I don’t think you can be so quick to get the black and white paints out.  The US is guilty of some abhorrent s**t in quite recent living memory.  

We can start with forced evictions of populations to irradiate their land, simply to see the effects of nuclear war on naval vessels.  The state sponsored abduction and torture of vulnerable US and national citizens. State sponsored racial segregation and a legacy of official hatred toward the black population long after the civil rights movement.  The list is long.

5 hours ago, and then said:

They've never made any secret of their goal of "spreading the revolution".

Therein lies the issue.  You can be reasonably clear of the objectives of regimes like Iran.  The US?  Can we be sure of their objectives when it comes to Middle Eastern intervention?  Are we sure Bush Jnr truly believed there were WMD’s in Iraq?  Or do we believe the Petro-dollar narrative?  The US has a legacy of official lies.

Don't get me wrong, I’m from the U.K. Our own legacy of ME intervention is as murky as yours, and it would be a valid accusation, if it were suggested that the U.K. is perhaps directly responsible  for Iran’s current political stance.  However pretending that the US or the West has some sort of moral entitlement to the invasion of foreign soil is misguided, however necessary it might be to particular interests.

 

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, and then said:

Cite the post where I said such a thing or even implied it.  Your twisted take on life isn't to be confused with the reality of my statements.  You, sir, are a liar and if you have ANY dignity or integrity you will PROVE what you just accused me of... so, the ball is in your court, Slick.  Put up or be shown in front of anyone here who is thoughtful and nonbiased to be an opinionated, ignorant and hateful HACK.

You're the buffoon that asked me last time the same question followed by accusation of being a liar and it only took the next thread to confirm exactly your disgusting mindset. Dignity and integrity?  LOL, this is your dignity and integrity in the one sentence:

Yet here we are.  There are a lot of maybes and perhaps, ifs, but the reality is that there is no single nation on the planet that can be sure of taking America's military down without grievous losses and potentially catastrophic global effects.  We may be perceived as a "bully" but only by those who simply disagree with our status and our goals in the world.  As soon as China, Russia, India or (insert name) gain a military/strategic advantage, they WILL use it.  That is what power projection is all about.  It was the same when Britannia ruled the waves and when other dynasties held sway.  No news here.  For now, it means that Iran's military leaders will have to keep seething in their near impotence.

The reality in your statement above indicates a sick mind that believes the world must tow the line by following America's interests and whoever dares rebel will face the might of America.  If this leads to a military confrontation America will not go down without catastrophic global effects to the world.

You're a sick psychopath.

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Setton
8 hours ago, and then said:

Your perspective would fit if people viewed Iran as skeptically, Tat.  My point is that many here see Iran as more trustworthy than America.  A regime that hangs gay men from CRANES and imprisons people for dissent.  Nice, eh?  I think it says far more about those holding the opinions than it does America.

I think your confusing trustworthy with predictable. I don't think anyone trusts Iran to do the right thing (of course, a lot don't trust the US either), but Iran has had the same kind of leadership for a long time. Their red lines and strategic goals are well established. The US under Trump is an unpredictable element. 

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Sir Smoke aLot
10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

What are you expecting, a photo of GW Bush driving a tanker out of Iraq? LOL, do you even understand how politics work in the real world?  Probably not if you're stuck in front of the TV listening to Hannity & Co.

Even top ranking UN officials were part of scandals related to Iraqi oil. Most of that was related to old Oil for Food program but that network was widely spread within both Iraqi and foreign politicians.

Since over 320 billion $ are estimated to be swallowed by corruption since the invasion of Iraq it would be rather silly to think that the Iraqi oil would not be sort of payment for the invasion, which costed a lot. So many private contracts signed with state of Iraq, some of which could not happen because Iraq was under sanctions in earlier decades.

Iraq has like 6th largest oil reserves in the world. One thing which is similar to countries with largest reserves of oil that they are usually either under sanctions or have been invaded to replace their former governments.

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Alchopwn
11 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Well, based on the logic you applied in the first paragraph you do make a good point.  Although, 1) Economic Imperialism was based on the British Empire of commercialisation around the world and 2) military occupation (or rather military presence) doesn't always derive from wars but also on mutual cooperation and agreements.  In fact the US has hundreds of bases spread across the world.  It still has bases in Italy and Germany from WWII when it did occupy those countries.  Maybe the best way to describe Chinese imperialism is 21st century imperialism but they still have a long way to go to even come close to the riches it brought to the British (in the 19th century) and American (in the 20th century) economies.

I agree with the second paragraph.

Your points are fair.  I think we are on the same page.

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Alchopwn
8 hours ago, pallidin said:

Can someone, anyone, tell me the value of Sharia law in modern society?  If you can, please offer your opinion.

The value of Sharia in modern society is entirely to support the upswing in Islamic values, which are among the most conservative on the planet.  There is an old saying "He who judges, rules.", which is pertinent as within Sharia, importance and value is extended to Islamic religious leaders to interpret the laws and extend their jurisprudence, or what passes for it, onto their society at large.  The cultural impact of this is heavily skewed towards Muslims and against non-Muslims, and grants very authoritarian powers to men, including defacto ownership of their women in what amounts to house arrest and slavery.  It also extends to Muslim men, in many if not most nations within the Islamic world, the right to sexually abuse children, including their own offspring, of either sex, without any offense being committed. 

Now as Islam sees itself as a culture that is failing against the media onslaught of US cultural soft power and liberal values, the installation of Sharia wherever possible is seen as a bulwark against these values erroding these traditional rights.  The Muslims regard this media power as being a form of neo-colonialism, and while they decry is, they also are routine consumers of it, but are deeply ashamed and become violent if they are caught in any form of hypocrisy as they are a shame culture, not a guilt culture (Shame vs Guilt cultures).  It must be said that normally the repressive measures taken by cultures that are being left behind by the modern world, normally ultimately work agains them, driving their people further against their values, so in that sense, tormenting Muslims with Sharia law that cuts their hands off for theft and so forth can only be a good thing in the long run.  Sharia law has had a very deleterious effect on the moral of Muslims, and many have become apostates as a result of its repression. 

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and then
6 hours ago, Grey Area said:

The list is long.

Shall we tot up a similar list for all other powerful nations?  I don't make a claim of spotless righteousness for America.  I posit that we are nowhere near as diabolical against the freedoms of our people or the citizens of other nations as ghouls like the old fanatics in Iran.  If you really want to compare us and rank us poorly against THAT lot then the problem is your own bias not mine.  Such a premise is ridiculous on its face and so are people who attempt to slander America in such casual ways, as though THEY hail from some paragon of virtue.  It gets boring to the point of tediousness.

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Phaeton80
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, pallidin said:

Can someone, anyone, tell me the value of Sharia law in modern society?

If you can, please offer your opinion.


You seem to be wielding a fascinatingly (and equally scary) simple black & white view on all of this (as in on a ellapellena or whats her name level). You completely ignore all the verifiable info that is hurled at you here, while passionately maintaining the soundbite Iran is somehow to be equated with the dissemination of sharia law. Eventhough you have had this position refuted with clearcut nuancing facts several times now, posts to which you choose not to respond, only to repeat thesame logical quagmire a few pages on.

I find your behaviour absolutely fascinating, would love to know who you really are, what your surroundings are like, where you get your info, how you came to be. Apologies, but the level of conditioning one must endure to be / think like this boggles the mind..

Can you tell a bit more about yourself (age, background, education etc)? Id understand if you wouldnt, but Im just extremely curious. If it helps, Id gladly tell more about myself as a trade off.

Edited by Phaeton80
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lightly

Bolton schmolton .    Figure out who Bolton truely represents and speaks for and you have solved this huge mystery of the Middle East .     Many will believe this to be an incredibly naive oversimplification of all our "trouble" and involvement in the region , but I can explain the entire mess in one word.     Oil.    And I can explain oil in one other word...Wealth.

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Grey Area
2 hours ago, and then said:

Shall we tot up a similar list for all other powerful nations?  I don't make a claim of spotless righteousness for America.  I posit that we are nowhere near as diabolical against the freedoms of our people or the citizens of other nations as ghouls like the old fanatics in Iran.  If you really want to compare us and rank us poorly against THAT lot then the problem is your own bias not mine.  Such a premise is ridiculous on its face and so are people who attempt to slander America in such casual ways, as though THEY hail from some paragon of virtue.  It gets boring to the point of tediousness.

Of course it’s my own bias that’s the problem. It never pays to be too introspective.

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RoofGardener
16 hours ago, pallidin said:

BRD, I am a dolphin and honey badger hybrid.

Be careful of the latter.

I distaste absurdity.

What... exactly.. is a Honey Badger ? :unsure2:

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