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XenoFish

A question of faith.

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jmccr8
11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I don't believe in anything on faith, but the evidences of my own life prove to me that certain things i have encountered are independently real (ie have their own physical existence outside my mind or perception) 

Hi Walker

Without objective evidence, you need to believe in faith if one reasonably questions their subjective experiences.

jmccr8

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XenoFish
On 5/16/2019 at 8:36 PM, Sherapy said:

Exactly, you were guiding in the way you could in actuality. 

You needed a huge sum of money you went to the bank, got a loan. 

It was an option cuz you could pay it back, you could make that work. 

You sound like a person who sets goals, who is consistent, who perseveres, is pragmatic why would you want to discard your magic as a viable plan of action.

It gave you a reason and the confidence in yourself to set goals realistically and follow them to fruition and it sounds like you got so good at it it became automatic.  

The woo part you found inconclusive. To me you sound like one hell of a critical thinker, just got there your own way.

The thing I'm realizing is that everyone does "magick". Not some hocus pocus, ritualistic actions while dressed up like a sexy witch or Merlin, but in everyday life. The ability to act intentionally, with purpose, and meaning. To create a change in accordance to one's will. Based on their intent. 

We give meaning to things. That meaning is an emotional value. Meaning also gives purpose.

When I write or draw I am taking something immaterial and giving it physical form. It is "real" in that it exist externally from me. 

My words might have a major, minor, or no influence whatsoever. Even who y'all think I am is just your mental model of me. 

If anything, I have faith that what I intend to do might work.

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Mr Walker
8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Without objective evidence, you need to believe in faith if one reasonably questions their subjective experiences.

jmccr8

When judging the words of another, all you have is faith in those words. 

When their experiences don't match your own, it is harder to have faith in them,  and vice versa.

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

People think in abstract then interpret it to words only after they have been indoctrinated into a language.  I accept that you have a different experience. 

Nup.

Maybe you are right but it goes against everything in my experience, and all the material i learned on cognitive and speech development, and  psychology,  so i will disagree with you for now

Apart from  images how can anyone actually think without thinking ie without constructing language which asks questions or provides answers?

How can you know what you are thinking if it has no structured form ?

IMO thought evolves along with language and while a person can be physically dumb and yet learn an inner language, you cannot be human if you are not thinking in a structured language form of some type  Language begins with the human mind attaching one word to one article, and evolves from there

I have read some articles which purport to argue this (your pov)  but in every case it comes back to human abilty to allocate labels and to form abstract,  symbolic, and concrete  words and meanings to things    

For example

quote

There is also evidence that deaf people cut off from language, spoken or signed, think in sophisticated ways before they have been exposed to language. When they later learn language, they can describe the experience of having had thoughts like those of the 15 year old boy who wrote in 1836, after being educated at a school for the deaf, that he remembered thinking in his pre-language days "that perhaps the moon would strike me, and I thought that perhaps my parents were strong, and would fight the moon, and it would fail, and I mocked the moon."

This is used as an argument for pre language thinking BUT the boy expressed his thoughts in language in his mind  which means they existed in language in his mind   before he learned to speak it 

So, he knew what the moon was and he could think of it striking him, and his parents protecting him.  That is LANGUAGE thinking. You can't form a sequence of thoughts like that without inner language

So, i remain open to being convinced, but i can't yet see anything which would convince me   

Could you explain what you mean by 'thinking in abstract " ie thinking without any words or meanings. 

Is it actually thinking at all or, as with infants, instinctive evolved responses to stimuli.  

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jmccr8
38 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

When judging the words of another, all you have is faith in those words. 

When their experiences don't match your own, it is harder to have faith in them,  and vice versa.

Hi Walker

I have had several experiences that I could claim was god inspired/psychic or paranormal if that is where my curiosity ended, however, I did look for what exists in my environment and how it impacts me so yes I do not have faith in the words of others because they have not shown that they have looked at all the potentials. I do have faith that you had an experience but until someone shows something that demonstrates that their experience is any more than a subjective experience that is where it ends.

jmccr8

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Habitat
41 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I have had several experiences that I could claim was god inspired/psychic or paranormal if that is where my curiosity ended, however, I did look for what exists in my environment and how it impacts me so yes I do not have faith in the words of others because they have not shown that they have looked at all the potentials. I do have faith that you had an experience but until someone shows something that demonstrates that their experience is any more than a subjective experience that is where it ends.

jmccr8

How do you know when "all the potentials" have been exhausted ? You take someone else's word for that ? Seems to me if you don't have faith in the reportage of your own senses, you are lost. That is where it all eventually circles back to, faith in your own judgement.

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jmccr8
Just now, Habitat said:

How do you know when "all the potentials" have been exhausted ? You take someone else's word for that ? Seems to me if you don't have faith in the reportage of your own senses, you are lost. That is where it all eventually circles back to, faith in your own judgement.

Hi Habitat

Be that as it may I look at all potential answers and they can usually be explained by environment/emotion/health/stress etc....if a person tells me that this is what something is and cannot explain it and show a demonstrative consistency of occurrence then I am less inclined to take a claim seriously unless shown otherwise.

jmccr8

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Habitat

Be that as it may I look at all potential answers and they can usually be explained by environment/emotion/health/stress etc....if a person tells me that this is what something is and cannot explain it and show a demonstrative consistency of occurrence then I am less inclined to take a claim seriously unless shown otherwise.

jmccr8

One thing to doubt what others say, another to doubt your own experience, because someone says it can't happen. One must have faith in one's own faculties, especially basic observation, people telling you that  you are "seeing things" are really only parading their own prejudice. The expression "seeing is believing" remains largely true.

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jmccr8
Just now, Habitat said:

One thing to doubt what others say, another to doubt your own experience, because someone says it can't happen. One must have faith in one's own faculties, especially basic observation, people telling you that  you are "seeing things" are really only parading their own prejudice. The expression "seeing is believing" remains largely true.

Hi Habitat

I don't doubt the answers I got and all of them could be explained within the context of the physical world. If I can see that it makes me wonder if some people just stop at a handy and special answer.

jmccr8

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Habitat
2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Habitat

I don't doubt the answers I got and all of them could be explained within the context of the physical world. If I can see that it makes me wonder if some people just stop at a handy and special answer.

jmccr8

Obviously one has to be there, and I can only speak for myself that I never default to "spooky" explanations, those that do are likely silly, but so are those that would not even consider the "spooky" explanations.

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GlitterRose

I know those things can be experienced, but they can also become unruly.

If that happens though, they can be eradicated, as well. 

All of that is very interesting.

 

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spartan max2

Quality thread 

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Clarakore
On 5/16/2019 at 7:10 PM, Sherapy said:

For me, my take is this, I think coincidence is pattern recognition our brains are wired to recognize pattens, especially within our own selves and field of experiences. 

For ex: When I am between jobs, I put all my energy into finding another job, I do this by reaching out to all my friends and associates, every person I see or know I mention that I am looking for work. And it almost seems magical, in a short time offers come in.  If seems like the perfect situation too, but in reality, I am marketing myself,  I am also verbalizing what I am looking for. I am actively engaged in the process consciously and unconsciously. 

Yet, it isn’t magic, or supernatural, or evidence of woo being true,  I have numbers on my side, location on my side, the right contacts on my side, people that can help me, and I have demographics on my side, what is going on is I am good at goal setting and marshaling my resources and marketing myself ( I owned a hair salon and this taught me a lot about marketing myself) and I have an abundance of resources to marshal in my area, it really helps that I live in a location of wealth where the need for what I do is high. Plus, I am a Jill of all trades type too, so I fit a lot of job descriptions. Even when I am working I have one foot on the horizon as they say open to the next opportunity. I am not pulling jobs out of my butt, even though it seems that way, in truth I am always planning ahead and actively involved in the process.

If I just changed where I lived, I would not be as successful, or didn’t mention I was looking for work, or kept my contacts up, I would not have the same success rate.

When I moved from the Valley to the Beach I had to start over. We forget how much familiarity fuels  coincidence too.

It really feels coincidental and magical that I always land a new gig and to some degree this level of confidence and competence from my success rate via experience probably helps in the sense that the faith I invest in myself is practical in reality and drives me to get out there. 

I do think faith in our own abilities and knowing what they are is a good thing.

Just my two cemts.

 

wait what? god is not responsible for all this? i mean ignore all else, ourselves and others, let us be humble, so humble we mention not even others....right?

no, mentioning others is what humility is about, it is not just me me me and oh, GOD GOD GOD GOOD GREAT GRAND GRAN'dios'E!

your post sounded so close to bragging at first and then I saw the actual humility and fortune favoring others, for giving your life to so many, no better friend can one have, and you have befriended the world best: according to your testimony...

..dang i do not want to convert but you have convinced me to become less like woo-ager-above-all-namaste-pasta-monster-in-you-when-we-invite-ya-to-eat-at-the-pie-in-sky-we-make-and-yaaaa-you-help-too-afterthought

maybe i can be an altruistatheist?

and walker can one day understand me,for english is not my first language, lol is

 

Quote

the greatest sounds in the universe is when it laughs with you, some still think it laughs at you, yet we all laugh with you....

...and then a daughter's laughter, all of them, no matter their age or place

 

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Clarakore
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

When judging the words of another, all you have is faith in those words. 

When their experiences don't match your own, it is harder to have faith in them,  and vice versa.

yet empathy allows us to have a composite view soon even you, for empaths at times block out so much as a defense mechanism, that also avoids sympathy which only can do harm...yet, anyways, visa-versa, same spectrum we all exist in

and then again the rashumon effect says even in the same place and time, heck even in a close relationship, like marriage, or siblings, forum conversation partners, even me and you, will see things differently

but hey only way to prove this is a U-M forum convention where Walker jets us all down and pays for a week and a day in Melbourne with a visit to Meredith Dairy and his local too for some brew

Edited by Clarakore

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Clarakore said:

yet empathy allows us to have a composite view soon even you, for empaths at times block out so much as a defense mechanism, that also avoids sympathy which only can do harm...yet, anyways, visa-versa, same spectrum we all exist in

and then again the rashumon effect says even in the same place and time, heck even in a close relationship, like marriage, or siblings, forum conversation partners, even me and you, will see things differently

but hey only way to prove this is a U-M forum convention where Walker jets us all down and pays for a week and a day in Melbourne with a visit to Meredith Dairy and his local too for some brew

If i ever win the lottery, I will do just that. :)  

Empathy is a wonderful abilty, which allows us to actually see through the eyes/mind of another, and to walk in their shoes in our mind.

It doesn't mean we agree with everything  they believe  or do, and it doesn't mean, by itself, that we then like or trust them. But it does help us understand them

Because most of our "experience "exists in our mind, and each mind is isolated from all other minds, then no two people, even experiencing identical events, will perceive  or respond to those events in the same way.  

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Mr Walker
4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

I have had several experiences that I could claim was god inspired/psychic or paranormal if that is where my curiosity ended, however, I did look for what exists in my environment and how it impacts me so yes I do not have faith in the words of others because they have not shown that they have looked at all the potentials. I do have faith that you had an experience but until someone shows something that demonstrates that their experience is any more than a subjective experience that is where it ends.

jmccr8

I agree with you 

I've examined all mine.

but when presented by another's claims, i ask them the same sets of questions i asked myself, to eliminate the most likely possibilities, like sleep derivation, drugs or alcohol or mis-seeing something 

Only you can judge your own experiences accurately,  and only i can judge mine. No one else has the same evidences of experience, on which to judge.

What i do find interesting is listening to random strangers who tell me basically identical experiences to some of my own.or to stories from  people from different places and times who relate similar experiences. 

It is the only way you can establish that an experience or abilty is not limited to yourself.   

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XenoFish

 

About empathy.

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Clarakore
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If i ever win the lottery, I will do just that. :)  

Empathy is a wonderful abilty, which allows us to actually see through the eyes/mind of another, and to walk in their shoes in our mind.

It doesn't mean we agree with everything  they believe  or do, and it doesn't mean, by itself, that we then like or trust them. But it does help us understand them

Because most of our "experience "exists in our mind, and each mind is isolated from all other minds, then no two people, even experiencing identical events, will perceive  or respond to those events in the same way.  

that is true, rashumon effect well explained sister sir walker, sorry i pulled you bro card but i can do thaf lol, wiith respect

now allow me to play dev advo,,,devils advocate, as you are well acquainted with this role as resident dev advo milord

when our stress management is well done allowing limited and valuable mental resources, the frontal lobes and prefrontal cortex can actually do what they were evolved to do

it takes  to the age of 25 or so to fully mature, adults according to car insurers is defined by this, but it can allow a surgery team to work as one cohesive unit, sharing their hands as one body

each op can and is different yet they can chit chat ball game, movies, how your father or nephew is, dinner plans and such, while hands move as one passing correct tools

 

i see when two or more are gathered in HIS name, from the bible, GOD is there making us one body, of same mind, yet WE see DIVINITY in YOU ALL, namaste and gather in our names, as you do honor well

but do not stress others, thoughtful you are and hope to see, faithfully, fully, a Mr Walker who honors all especially our Stronger and Fairer Sex,,,especially when they care about your wife and ask from time to time

btw S&F Sex is the Ladies, yet do not call me a white knight or a capt-save-a-hotel, call me a stress tester if desired and know that is my gig, TANGO YANKEE or danke guten herr walker

(wanders away singing la bamba now...yo no soy marinero soy la mar y tierra tambien) translation is, i am not a sailor, I AM the SEA and LAND

Edited by Clarakore

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Clarakore
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I agree with you 

I've examined all mine.

but when presented by another's claims, i ask them the same sets of questions i asked myself, to eliminate the most likely possibilities, like sleep derivation, drugs or alcohol or mis-seeing something 

Only you can judge your own experiences accurately,  and only i can judge mine. No one else has the same evidences of experience, on which to judge.

What i do find interesting is listening to random strangers who tell me basically identical experiences to some of my own.or to stories from  people from different places and times who relate similar experiences. 

It is the only way you can establish that an experience or abilty is not limited to yourself.   

i was about to read the science provided by XF, than you Xeno, but will address this from a distance, as I wandered off, whatever lol

there is a deep mistrust in your system of others and self, no? do all lie? do all not report what is valid and accurate? who is pulling legs? and are you then pulling teeth? even yours?

can you follow ghandi and then this next stage we are ready for? an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind,while a leg for a tooth, makes you an english pirate yar?

if so get on  board for my main point and ignore the above and focus on this please if confused by this sense of humor:

I APPRECIATE WALKER's system of self-validation but here is your spine aligned from root or your solar plexus, the primeval brain in your gut, to your brain stem and limbic mind, or reptilian and mammalian mind, up the highest potential of the human mind, or as bible says, the highest heaven or highest abode of your KING OF KINGS (paraphrased ok)

Now I offer my anecdotal evidence of in my experience, YMMV, that I always get self validation bro

What I look for is the best variation, narration, or version of another's truth or another culture's truth, or religion, or science, or whatever system one is sharing their view through

And you too will see what I do see, as some remember me kindly, and treat me so, yet I was an animal of savage posts full of flame and hate, down in the political forum in recent history, a progressive against the the conservatives, modern libertarians especially, and liberals too...yet progress is not about speed but direction, as change does come instantly until we all up our manifest game, transmute too, and juggle both back back to LOVE, and you know corinthians love letter, love is kind, does not force itself, does not brag, does not offend, does not bully, and all shall fall and fail from prophecy to knowledge to whatever gift you have and share with others, for LOVE chooses in what amount we give, get, and then even how we feel, and how others receive, IT is LOVE, and AMOR VINCIT OMNIA

signed,

your bro and second biggest fan, as you fanboy yourself well and i like that

MOM...Matter Under Mind and many other name changes as I like that too, tq

Edited by Clarakore
as romans say a christian who follows the book will be judged by it, and those who do not will still have the same scriptures writtern on their heart and will be judged by their conscience

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Clarakore

p,s, walker buy a bottle of janz from the tamar valley and share with your loved ones or good people you might come across, teetotaler? or no?

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Clarakore said:

i was about to read the science provided by XF, than you Xeno, but will address this from a distance, as I wandered off, whatever lol

there is a deep mistrust in your system of others and self, no? do all lie? do all not report what is valid and accurate? who is pulling legs? and are you then pulling teeth? even yours?

can you follow ghandi and then this next stage we are ready for? an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind,while a leg for a tooth, makes you an english pirate yar?

if so get on  board for my main point and ignore the above and focus on this please if confused by this sense of humor:

I APPRECIATE WALKER's system of self-validation but here is your spine aligned from root or your solar plexus, the primeval brain in your gut, to your brain stem and limbic mind, or reptilian and mammalian mind, up the highest potential of the human mind, or as bible says, the highest heaven or highest abode of your KING OF KINGS (paraphrased ok)

Now I offer my anecdotal evidence of in my experience, YMMV, that I always get self validation bro

What I look for is the best variation, narration, or version of another's truth or another culture's truth, or religion, or science, or whatever system one is sharing their view through

And you too will see what I do see, as some remember me kindly, and treat me so, yet I was an animal of savage posts full of flame and hate, down in the political forum in recent history, a progressive against the the conservatives, modern libertarians especially, and liberals too...yet progress is not about speed but direction, as change does come instantly until we all up our manifest game, transmute too, and juggle both back back to LOVE, and you know corinthians love letter, love is kind, does not force itself, does not brag, does not offend, does not bully, and all shall fall and fail from prophecy to knowledge to whatever gift you have and share with others, for LOVE chooses in what amount we give, get, and then even how we feel, and how others receive, IT is LOVE, and AMOR VINCIT OMNIA

signed,

your bro and second biggest fan, as you fanboy yourself well and i like that

MOM...Matter Under Mind and many other name changes as I like that too, tq

Exactly, more often than not the reception we have garnered, or the issues we have are in large part due to our own doing. 

Of course, there are actual bullies, and they get reported and they are no more.

I too, had a lot of issues not unlike MW.

I too was a one woman army who was going to stand strong against the bullies. How dare anyone try and shut me up, blah,

blah blah...

I too, concluded “that no one understands me” this was just evidence of my limits and lack of understanding how I was the problem.

My problems went deeper and so do MW’s whatever they may be. My feedback is lack of humility is his Achilles heel. But who am I, Lol.

And eventually he will move on or evolve.

In the meantime, your two cents is insightful. 

 

Edited by Sherapy
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XenoFish
34 minutes ago, Clarakore said:

I APPRECIATE WALKER's system of self-validation

I don't. What I see from Walker is self-glorification.

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Sherapy
11 hours ago, Clarakore said:

wait what? god is not responsible for all this? i mean ignore all else, ourselves and others, let us be humble, so humble we mention not even others....right?

no, mentioning others is what humility is about, it is not just me me me and oh, GOD GOD GOD GOOD GREAT GRAND GRAN'dios'E!

your post sounded so close to bragging at first and then I saw the actual humility and fortune favoring others, for giving your life to so many, no better friend can one have, and you have befriended the world best: according to your testimony...

..dang i do not want to convert but you have convinced me to become less like woo-ager-above-all-namaste-pasta-monster-in-you-when-we-invite-ya-to-eat-at-the-pie-in-sky-we-make-and-yaaaa-you-help-too-afterthought

maybe i can be an altruistatheist?

and walker can one day understand me,for english is not my first language, lol is

 

 

Lol, I thought the same, I thought oh my, I sound like MW.

 

 

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danydandan
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Lol, I thought the same, I thought oh my, I sound like MW.

 

 

Sobering thought to have.

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't. What I see from Walker is self-glorification.

I think the bragging is a coping mechanism.

If you look at how much he defends himself in his posts, often walls of texts it tends to be around his credibility. 

In my opinion, he has most likely had major issues in this area. 

Kind of like “in spite of what you think or say I am a big somebody; I matter and I know my worth let me remind you just how amazing I actually am.” 

He knows it will poke the bear, get all kind of responses, there is some unresolved anger in this too.  He thinks he has overcome anger, I once thought that way too. It is disassociation. 

He is inflating his wounded ego it helps him feel better about himself in the moment, it is a coping skill.

I notice after he gets challenged, he goes away for awhile comes back with a whole new set of tales.

Of course, this is all my two cents about as meaningful as a fly on the wall. 

Edited by Sherapy
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