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Sir Smoke aLot

Germany designates BDS as anti-Semitic

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Sir Smoke aLot

LINK to article on Reuters. 

''The argumentation patterns and methods used by the BDS movement are anti-Semitic,” read the motion submitted by Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives, their Social Democrat coalition partners as well as the Greens and Free Democrats.''

Is BDS anti-Semitic?

How dare they call for the end of occupation, equal rights and return for refugees? I am still trying to find something anti-Semitic in that. 

After similar laws which target BDS are being adopted by states in the USA, Germany is officially first country in Europe to follow such path. 

Netanyahu welcomed the decision on Twitter and calls other countries to follow too : 

 

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Piney
1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

How dare they call for the end of occupation, equal rights and return for refugees? I am still trying to find something anti-Semitic in that. 

Seriously! My sister and I and 3 of our Jewish friends are now "anti-Semites". 

Germany is so full of guilt it's pathetic..........

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RabidMongoose
1 hour ago, Piney said:

Seriously! My sister and I and 3 of our Jewish friends are now "anti-Semites". 

Germany is so full of guilt it's pathetic..........

They never have balance there.

All one way then all the other.

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Piney
4 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

They never have balance there.

All one way then all the other.

Same here in the U.S. 

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ExpandMyMind
3 hours ago, Piney said:

Seriously! My sister and I and 3 of our Jewish friends are now "anti-Semites". 

Germany is so full of guilt it's pathetic..........

I wouldn't say it's pathetic. If Americans had felt anywhere near the same level of guilt for your brethren, you'd probably still have quite a bit of land and a lot more cousins.

That being said, I don't agree with Germany's decision here. I don't think boycotting Israel is anti-semitic, though some factions within the BDS or some certain policies may well be (and this might, in fact, be why Germany has made this decision).

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Sir Smoke aLot
5 hours ago, Piney said:

Seriously! My sister and I and 3 of our Jewish friends are now "anti-Semites". 

Germany is so full of guilt it's pathetic..........

Indeed, so many normal people now fall under that category.

Generally, as i see it, BDS - it's core members and supporters - they are fighting against occupation in democratic way even tho, legally, that they are not obliged to because Palestinians are ruled by military rule and armed resistance is legal option in such case.

By denying them this right is calling for more violence and punishes Palestinian people for being peaceful and for using non violent means of fighting occupation :D

Can't get more absurd than that. 

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Piney
41 minutes ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

By denying them this right is calling for more violence and punishes Palestinian people for being peaceful and for using non violent means of fighting occupation :D

 

My sister knew the girl who was trying to protect that ancient olive grove and was run over by a D7 driven by a member of the IDF. She watched it and could do nothing. 

and they wonder why the Palestinians use violence...:hmm:

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Piney
2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I wouldn't say it's pathetic. If Americans had felt anywhere near the same level of guilt for your brethren, you'd probably still have quite a bit of land and a lot more cousins.

 

When my brother-in-law saw the Holocaust Museum in D.C he said "OK, where's ours?" 

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

LINK to article on Reuters. 

''The argumentation patterns and methods used by the BDS movement are anti-Semitic,” read the motion submitted by Chancellor Angela Merkel’s conservatives, their Social Democrat coalition partners as well as the Greens and Free Democrats.''

Is BDS anti-Semitic?

How dare they call for the end of occupation, equal rights and return for refugees? I am still trying to find something anti-Semitic in that. 

After similar laws which target BDS are being adopted by states in the USA, Germany is officially first country in Europe to follow such path. 

Netanyahu welcomed the decision on Twitter and calls other countries to follow too : 

It's really simple, @Sir Smoke aLot

Have you read the mandate of the Palestinian BDS movement ? 

I bet you haven't, for the simple reason that they deleted it from their own website about 8 months ago. 

The mandate talked in great detail about the suffering of the Palestinian People, and how we should pressurise the Israeli government to alleviate it. And also the fact that the State of Israel must be destroyed , by means of the "right of return", meaning that about a million great-grandchildren can "return" to a country they have never been in, and vote to turn it into an Islamic Wafq. 

Yes, you heard that correctly. The Palestinian BDS movement is committed to the Right of Return, and the destruction of the State of Israel. They used to put this on their website... but now curiously it is removed. 

Strangely, you don't hear much about that, do you ? 

THAT is why so many universities, and so many businesses, have been "divesting" themselves of involvement with the Palestinian BDS movement. 

Incidentally, in case you are confused, the "Palestinian BDS movement" is the BDS movement you've all been hearing about. Curiously, however, the Media omit the "Palestinian" tag. Can't imagine why. 

Edited by RoofGardener
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ExpandMyMind

Always strange to see a pro Israel poster moan about a one generation (or less, considering some displaced are still alive) right to return, when the moral basis for mass immigration to Israel was centred on a 'right' to return thousands of years old. 

You have to have some brass neck to try to make that argument without embarrassment.

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Piney
3 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

Always strange to see a pro Israel poster moan about a one generation (or less, considering some displaced are still alive) right to return, when the moral basis for mass immigration to Israel was centred on a 'right' to return thousands of years old. 

:nw:

Some with no genetics connections like the Khazar descendants. 

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Aaron2016

Fighting for centuries over flags and bits of land.  Such futility.  Mankind really hasn't advanced much or learned anything from centuries of conflict and war.  Whatever happened to common sense e.g.

  

'Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.'

— Jesus Christ, (Luke 6:27)

 

 
 
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and then
13 hours ago, Piney said:

Seriously! My sister and I and 3 of our Jewish friends are now "anti-Semites". 

Germany is so full of guilt it's pathetic..........

Can you think of a nation that has more reason?  Yes, it's been nearly 80 years but what that society allowed itself to descend into should NEVER be forgotten or swept under a rug.  NOT because those alive today owe anyone anything as regards the atrocities their forebears took part in but because to forget is to risk falling into the same trap.  History indeed repeats itself.  Germany has supplied Israel with the ultimate means of self-protection though.  Those Dolphin-Class Submarines make Israel able to punch back with nukes against an enemy that might have ended the state with a first-strike on their cities.  No other nation has done so much since France helped them build and test the big fire...

 

Defend yourselves do not buy from Jews.jpg

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Piney
4 minutes ago, and then said:

Can you think of a nation that has more reason? 

Russia, The U.S.,Canada, Spain,Turkey all had their genocide episodes......Oh, wait! They all deny them. :yes:

and when is the U.S. going to ban the Catholic Church for killing hundreds of millions? Or Mormons and Nation of Islam because they are both hate groups. :)

 

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and then
5 hours ago, Piney said:

Russia, The U.S.,Canada, Spain,Turkey all had their genocide episodes......Oh, wait! They all deny them. :yes:

and when is the U.S. going to ban the Catholic Church for killing hundreds of millions? Or Mormons and Nation of Islam because they are both hate groups. :)

 

I'll accept your reasoning in all the cases you mentioned.  Do any of those make Germany's insanity less evil or in need of being consciously aware of by her people?  As I said, History repeats.  The sad thing is that it seems it might repeat in OUR country.  Brown shirts don't always wear the same uniforms.

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Sir Smoke aLot
15 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Have you read the mandate of the Palestinian BDS movement ? 

I bet you haven't, for the simple reason that they deleted it from their own website about 8 months ago. 

Does every defense of Israeli polities has to be another accusation placed on their ''enemies''? Reason they were formed is to use legal instruments in fight for rights for Palestinians. The amount of outrage when Intifada happened was also enormous but in the essence those were non violent civilian revolts, civilians who then distanced from every political faction and took the things in their own hands but we know how it ended, in blood and empty promises.

Is mentioned here, some supporters and/or affiliates of BDS might be ''bad guys'' but the same could be said about every organization, even Microsoft lol

Does it mean that we should ban Windows OS? Maybe not the best example but not far from truth.

15 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

the State of Israel must be destroyed

Not once but on ten occasions at least i showed that PLO, Hamas or Fatah and Palestinians in general do not have and never had such lines written anywhere in constitution or ideology. Israel sees ''right of return'' as ''destruction of Israel'' and they label such references in Palestinian charters as ''calls for destruction of Israel''. This is fact. I am not trying to discuss about it i am just stating it.

Israeli officials, especially intelligence and army, after striking coastal infrastructure in Gaza - they release statement describing attack on Hamas naval base or Hamas terror infrastructure. Such terms are applied to destroyed TV stations, civilian buildings...

If i follow such logic and narrative then i must accept the fact that, as Israel loves to portrait, that this is full scale war between two sides.

Why does Israel cry when Palestinians use any sort of force then?

Why they cry when Hamas launch rockets? Why the media outrage? My message to Israel would be ''either work for peace and admit your superiority over Palestinians or shut the ...''.

Israel can not even hold their settlers in line and we are to believe that they want peace and disarmed Palestinian people want war? British mandate made sure that Palestinians are disarmed so that Zionists got Carte Blanche of sorts. Just few days ago Israeli settlers burned acres of land and infrastructure in West Bank. Week ago one settler who burned house with Palestinian family in it (all died) was freed from prison, his case was not murder but changed to arson!? 

This one is freed with no punishment after burning a church for example. Cases like these are done almost on daily basis in occupied territories and in Jerusalem especially.

Every day there is one child who needs medical attention because of physical injuries inflicted by either settlers or by IDF. At least one daily. Palestinian fields are polluted by waste. Cases like that also happen on regular basis, often settlers are protected by IDF while they commit crimes against Palestinians. OK so who wan't destruction here?

Those are the questions that need to be addressed i mean this is not court, no jury here to buy the ''discredited witness'' game. Address any of those cases i mentioned without accusations, but with facts. Sorry for longer answer but i welcome everyone to read it and think for themselves. Of course, there should be instances of Palestinian crimes against Israel mentioned but not in defense of ones own crimes. Thanks.

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

Does every defense of Israeli polities has to be another accusation placed on their ''enemies''? Reason they were formed is to use legal instruments in fight for rights for Palestinians. The amount of outrage when Intifada happened was also enormous but in the essence those were non violent civilian revolts, civilians who then distanced from every political faction and took the things in their own hands but we know how it ended, in blood and empty promises.

Is mentioned here, some supporters and/or affiliates of BDS might be ''bad guys'' but the same could be said about every organization, even Microsoft lol

Does it mean that we should ban Windows OS? Maybe not the best example but not far from truth.

Not once but on ten occasions at least i showed that PLO, Hamas or Fatah and Palestinians in general do not have and never had such lines written anywhere in constitution or ideology. Israel sees ''right of return'' as ''destruction of Israel'' and they label such references in Palestinian charters as ''calls for destruction of Israel''. This is fact. I am not trying to discuss about it i am just stating it.

Israeli officials, especially intelligence and army, after striking coastal infrastructure in Gaza - they release statement describing attack on Hamas naval base or Hamas terror infrastructure. Such terms are applied to destroyed TV stations, civilian buildings...

If i follow such logic and narrative then i must accept the fact that, as Israel loves to portrait, that this is full scale war between two sides.

Why does Israel cry when Palestinians use any sort of force then?

Why they cry when Hamas launch rockets? Why the media outrage? My message to Israel would be ''either work for peace and admit your superiority over Palestinians or shut the ...''.

Israel can not even hold their settlers in line and we are to believe that they want peace and disarmed Palestinian people want war? British mandate made sure that Palestinians are disarmed so that Zionists got Carte Blanche of sorts. Just few days ago Israeli settlers burned acres of land and infrastructure in West Bank. Week ago one settler who burned house with Palestinian family in it (all died) was freed from prison, his case was not murder but changed to arson!? 

This one is freed with no punishment after burning a church for example. Cases like these are done almost on daily basis in occupied territories and in Jerusalem especially.

Every day there is one child who needs medical attention because of physical injuries inflicted by either settlers or by IDF. At least one daily. Palestinian fields are polluted by waste. Cases like that also happen on regular basis, often settlers are protected by IDF while they commit crimes against Palestinians. OK so who wan't destruction here?

Those are the questions that need to be addressed i mean this is not court, no jury here to buy the ''discredited witness'' game. Address any of those cases i mentioned without accusations, but with facts. Sorry for longer answer but i welcome everyone to read it and think for themselves. Of course, there should be instances of Palestinian crimes against Israel mentioned but not in defense of ones own crimes. Thanks.

SSaL, did you read my post ? 

The reason so many Western businesses, governments and academic institutions are turning away from "BDS" is that it promotes the "right" of return for millions of great-great-grandchildren of the ORIGINAL  Palestinian Arab refugees.

No other refugee situation in the WORLD - now or EVER - has this a definition of 'refugee' that is passed on to the children and grandchildren of the original refugees. This method of counting refugees - specified by UNRWA - is unique.

If the millions of grandchildren of the original refugees where granted their 'right' of return, then it would cause an electoral shift in Israel at the next election, which would make it the LAST election that "Israel" would ever have.

(Hint.. when was there last an election in the West Bank or Gaza ? )

Businesses, governments and academic institutions are beginning to recognise the Palestinian BDS movement for what it is - a movement to destroy the State of Israel. THAT is why BDS is failing at every turn.  

 

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RoofGardener

Oh.. and on a lighter note.... I disagree with the characterisation of the BDS movement being antisemitic. it is anti-Israel. 

Also.. on the topic of BDS.... 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/01/26/how-much-does-bds-threaten-israels-economy/

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Sir Smoke aLot
On 5/20/2019 at 2:27 PM, RoofGardener said:

Oh.. and on a lighter note.... I disagree with the characterisation of the BDS movement being antisemitic. it is anti-Israel. 

Also.. on the topic of BDS.... 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2018/01/26/how-much-does-bds-threaten-israels-economy/

It can fit into anti-Israel, being opposed to any nation or to the whole concept of nations is also perfectly fine as long as one doesn't use violence to force his views on the others, which is called terrorism.

I applaud BDS for doing that which Hamas is asked to. It's interesting, imagine if Hamas disarmed and started to use approach similar to BDS, what do you think would happen?

Quote from the article you posted : ''Unlike the E.U., the BDS movement promotes boycotts of made-in-Israel products across the board, boycotts of Israeli artists and academics, and even lobbying for official sanctions on the State of Israel by foreign governments and international bodies. This raises the important question of what signal would be sent to the average Israeli, ultimately the key player in the BDS movement’s own “theory of the case.”''

I have some disagreements here.

Actually BDS has targeted companies which work with security sector in Israel, companies which provide equipment and tools for checkpoints in occupied areas for example.

They also target those from industry sector who make bulldozers which are used to destroy Palestinian homes and every company which works with IDF. It does also include products from illegal settlements (which, BTW, were banned in many EU countries too as stated in the article). Then they also try to influence artists not to work in Israel, not to have concerts there because it helps portrait different image of Israel, image far from everyday violence. In no way does BDS target every company and business in Israel, ''across the board'' as said by author.

Many Israeli academics are actually members of BDS in the same manner as Jewish groups who also oppose Zionism and state of Israel.

I like that Oslo was mentioned. How did Israel manage to break some sanctions back then? By promising to make peace and changes... It worked but nothing did change.

How does Israel fight sanctions today? By trying to silence it's opposition. It can not play well i am sure of it.

Who knows what will happen if laws like these will be forced on many people and nations.

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Sir Smoke aLot
Posted (edited)
On 5/20/2019 at 1:15 PM, RoofGardener said:

The reason so many Western businesses, governments and academic institutions are turning away from "BDS" is that it promotes the "right" of return for millions of great-great-grandchildren of the ORIGINAL  Palestinian Arab refugees.

It's the legal fact that refugees have right of return anywhere on this planet and it's consensus by world's nations which implemented such laws mostly on request from Western powers. 

On 5/20/2019 at 1:15 PM, RoofGardener said:

No other refugee situation in the WORLD - now or EVER - has this a definition of 'refugee' that is passed on to the children and grandchildren of the original refugees. This method of counting refugees - specified by UNRWA - is unique.

Good God man, i expected you to have read at least basic Israeli charter and laws since you are so pro Israeli now i wonder on what do you base your opinion :)

Israeli most essential law in their constitution is the right of return :D But being supremacist regime and basing their view on Biblical God given right, Palestinians do not have same divine right hence the opposition.

On 5/20/2019 at 1:15 PM, RoofGardener said:

Businesses, governments and academic institutions are beginning to recognise the Palestinian BDS movement for what it is - a movement to destroy the State of Israel. THAT is why BDS is failing at every turn. 

Again, academics are leaning towards justice and equality. If the world population was taught about critical thinking in high schools instead of university worlds population would not be mostly dumb and easily manipulated. What kind of thinking does make one agree with the statement that ''BDS is movement to destroy Israel''. Can we apply logic here? Common sense? 

What tools do BDS have to accomplish that which Arabs could not for 100 years? :) Silly my friend, that's just silly. On the other hand we can factually make plausible case that ''political Zionism is movement which seeks destruction of Palestine and Palestinian people and regional domination by using puppet states, in the same manner in which city states operated before monarchies and nations were formed''. What do you think is that interesting topic? Shall we make one?

Edited by Sir Smoke aLot
typos

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RoofGardener
4 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

It's the legal fact that refugees have right of return anywhere on this planet and it's consensus by world's nations which implemented such laws mostly on request from Western powers. 

Good God man, i expected you to have read at least basic Israeli charter and laws since you are so pro Israeli now i wonder on what do you base your opinion :)

Israeli most essential law in their constitution is the right of return :D But being supremacist regime and basing their view on Biblical God given right, Palestinians do not have same divine right hence the opposition.

Again, academics are leaning towards justice and equality. If the world population was taught about critical thinking in high schools instead of university worlds population would not be mostly dumb and easily manipulated. What kind of thinking does make one agree with the statement that ''BDS is movement to destroy Israel''. Can we apply logic here? Common sense? 

What tools do BDS have to accomplish that which Arabs could not for 100 years? :) Silly my friend, that's just silly. On the other hand we can factually make plausible case that ''political Zionism is movement which seeks destruction of Palestine and Palestinian people and regional domination by using puppet states, in the same manner in which city states operated before monarchies and nations were formed''. What do you think is that interesting topic? Shall we make one?

Not really, SSaL. Israel chooses to allow jews around the world to immigrate into Israel. 

That is rather different to UNRWA making a unique judgement - not applied in ANY refugee situation ANYWHERE in the world - that the relations (only through the father) of a palestinian refugee, is also a refugee. As are THEIR children, and so on and so forth. 

How do you justify this ? The original 700-800,000 refugees have now multiplied into multiple millions of 'refugees'. If these where allowed to return, it would change the political character of Israel. Indeed, if the PLO are to be believed, those refugees would take advantage of the Israeli democratic system to vote in an Islamic government, at which point Israel would cease to be either (a) Jewish, and (b) a democracy, and finally (c) a country called Israel. (the muslim majority would merge the territory - once all the Jews have been subdued - into Jordan. ). 

But I return to my primary point, SSaL; how can you justify the Arab Palestinian refugees being given this "inherited" refugee status, uniquely in the world, and uniquely in history ? 

And this is why people are rejecting the Palestinian BDS movement (to give the organisation its full name). They have become aware that the Palestinian BDS movement wants to promote the 'right of return', and hence the destruction of Israel. 

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Sir Smoke aLot
6 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Not really, SSaL. Israel chooses to allow jews around the world to immigrate into Israel. 

Yes but the law is basically the same only ''issue'' who is ''legitimate'' enough to enforce it.

7 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

How do you justify this ? The original 700-800,000 refugees have now multiplied into multiple millions of 'refugees'. If these where allowed to return, it would change the political character of Israel. Indeed, if the PLO are to be believed, those refugees would take advantage of the Israeli democratic system to vote in an Islamic government, at which point Israel would cease to be either (a) Jewish, and (b) a democracy, and finally (c) a country called Israel. (the muslim majority would merge the territory - once all the Jews have been subdued - into Jordan. ). 

Maybe you do not remember but i find, unfortunately and with hard hearth that return is almost impossible. No real chance of it happening but what i expected from Israel is the offer, make concessions and ask for some in return. No such initiative as far as i know especially since some parts of ''deal of the century'' actually include wishes of Israelis.

Arabs were promised democratic elections by British and that was never respected, their right for self determination denied ( i am talking about 1930's). And to this day they were not allowed but before it was easier since all the news from Palestine were biased towards settlers (myth of empty land).

That which was denied to Palestinians and was given to foreigners, more precisely to honorable Rotschild (Balfour Declaration). Now we are to say that if they finally get that democratic right it will be violence (of sorts) towards Israel? That's absurd in it's essence!

Anyhow, as Ben Gurion and Begin were saying since start of colonization... Given enough time it will be impossible to give state to Palestinians but i do not wish to share exact quotes now because it is a bit disgusting to read it.

21 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

But I return to my primary point, SSaL; how can you justify the Arab Palestinian refugees being given this "inherited" refugee status, uniquely in the world, and uniquely in history ? 

I would answer with a question, how can we give such divine right to refugees from Europe and elsewhere? Because they were promised the land by God? Or because Europe was responsible for Holocaust, Arabs were not.

See, Israelis are given exactly such right, unique in the world and unique in history especially now with pressure on governments growing to be more favorable to not Jews but for Zionist pleasure (see this German BDS ban and all those absurd things which are happening in the USA).

How can you justify that? Why didn't Germany give land to the Jewish people who suffered in WW2? Since Hitler's regime was responsible it would be logical but Palestine has something which was of great interest to Zionists. Consider that.

26 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

And this is why people are rejecting the Palestinian BDS movement (to give the organisation its full name). They have become aware that the Palestinian BDS movement wants to promote the 'right of return', and hence the destruction of Israel. 

On the paper they have that right but it is not real possibility BUT it opens a way to negotiate but not in this world which is in wicked state.

LINK to text of resolution 194. Since 1948 a lot has changed but that doesn't change this fact regardless of possibility to make it happen.

Accordingly, BDS is under lines of conduct which is determined by UN and was holding ground hard until some events from 1970's and after Oslo but that is another broader subject. Do you think that UN wants to destroy Israel too since majority of world's nations also have voted in favor of this right of return? No wonder that both Israel and Trump administration were trying to and are undermining UN institutions.

Does this also mean that UN, everyone is anti-Semitic? 

There are so many neglected things and historical events when it comes to Israel and Palestine and you surely noticed that i tend to mention a lot of things to even get to the point because by having narrow look at this conflict makes confusion and that always worked in Israeli favor, including BDS ban which is ongoing across the globe.

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