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The Great Pyramid Babineau Theory

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Hanslune
2 minutes ago, Brianbabs56 said:

That is why we are heading to Giza later this year to test elevations. Water in the Nile flows past Lake Moeris then continues to flow 50 miles to Cairo, then out into the sea. If the slope of the Nile is 1 inch per 100 feet (almost perfectly flat) between the 2, the Nile would still work for our theory. Then assuming the lake was put in equilibrium with the Nile, the lake would have to work too. We aren't ruling out the possibility that we are wrong, which is why we are going to test it. 

How are you going to 'test' the elevation? You do know the elevation is already well established? As I noted before calling a local university will gain you your answer if you doubt the existing published sources.

I've been to this particular institution (in 1983).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayoum_University

They are located in the area of your interest. I suspect their department of archaeology or engineering will know what you seek. Oh and yes the professors will speak English.

 

 

 

 

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cormac mac airt
22 minutes ago, Brianbabs56 said:

That is why we are heading to Giza later this year to test elevations. Water in the Nile flows past Lake Moeris then continues to flow 50 miles to Cairo, then out into the sea. If the slope of the Nile is 1 inch per 100 feet (almost perfectly flat) between the 2, the Nile would still work for our theory. Then assuming the lake was put in equilibrium with the Nile, the lake would have to work too. We aren't ruling out the possibility that we are wrong, which is why we are going to test it. 

But in the meantime you purposely ignore all the available facts before having written it up in a paper pretending to know what you’re talking about. How convenient AND unprofessional. 

cormac

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Brianbabs56
58 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Evidence of pipelines?

There are 2 coming off of the sub chamber. Our theory uses Herodotus' writings of a connection between lake Moeris and the GP to say that one of those extended to Lake Moeris. If you do this, everything that Herodotus' said about the Pyramid makes sense, and every component inside it (8 inch shaft, Grand Gallery, Grotto and granite slab, etc.) works with what he said as well. This can't be a coincidence. 

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Brianbabs56
44 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

How are you going to 'test' the elevation? You do know the elevation is already well established? As I noted before calling a local university will gain you your answer if you doubt the existing published sources.

I've been to this particular institution (in 1983).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayoum_University

They are located in the area of your interest. I suspect their department of archaeology or engineering will know what you seek. Oh and yes the professors will speak English.

 

 

 

 

Ok thank you! We will try to get on touch with them, but going to Giza to view the 7th wonder if the ancient world will also be amazing so we will still go to see it. 

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Brianbabs56
32 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

But in the meantime you purposely ignore all the available facts before having written it up in a paper pretending to know what you’re talking about. How convenient AND unprofessional. 

cormac

I think you are misinterpreting us. That might be our fault. We aren't looking for the elevation of Lake Moeris since water hasn't been in it for thousands of years. We are looking for the elevation of the ancient connection of the Nile to Lake Moeris. This elevation would be more representative of our assertion. 

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Hanslune
10 minutes ago, Brianbabs56 said:

There are 2 coming off of the sub chamber.

Yes you've said that but what evidence do you have that there IS a pipe actually there? Image, drawing, paper mentioning its existence?

subterranean-chamber1.jpg

piramide11_15_small.jpg

 

piramide11_16_small.gif

GreatPyramid50.jpg

So....where's the pipe?

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cladking
11 minutes ago, Brianbabs56 said:

I think you are misinterpreting us. That might be our fault. We aren't looking for the elevation of Lake Moeris since water hasn't been in it for thousands of years. We are looking for the elevation of the ancient connection of the Nile to Lake Moeris. This elevation would be more representative of our assertion. 

You might be interested in this;

Any good hypothesis about reverse engineering something that has been studied to death is going to need a lot of tweaking before it's a theory.  

I'm sure I didn't exhaust all the evidence to support your theory or my early version of my own.   Today there is far more available evidence than there was then.  It's the shame the search engines don't work very well any longer and this will slow you down a lot.  

Don't let the naysayers get to you.  Someday someone outside of the mainstream will solve this and it just might be you.  

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Brianbabs56
2 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yes you've said that but what evidence do you have that there IS a pipe actually there? Image, drawing, paper mentioning its existence?

piramide11_16_small.gif

 

In this picture, the left side shows the 53 foot passage, and bottom shows the unending passage. Those are the 2 we are taking about. 

We have 3 reasons for our assertion. 1) it is the least explored area of the Pyramid, the exploration was in the early 1900's. 

2) Herodotus interviewed the builders' ancestors and was told of a connection between it and Lake Moeris

3) If you accept his writings as fact, rather than attributing it to constellations, every component that makes up the Pyramid (which we list on our paper) becomes necessary and useful. This has never been done.

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Kenemet

Okay @Brianbabs56  This is your cue to back out and stop reading this thread.  I am not going to be snide or nasty but I am going to be academic and moderately rigoroous.  Realize that these are just the comments of an ordinary academic and not a linguist, a historian, an engineer, a PhD level Egyptologist, a hydrologist, all of whom might read your paper and have even stronger criticisms than I do.

First.  This isn't a paper, as I've said.  It's an essay.  Here's how you write a paper: http://www-mech.eng.cam.ac.uk/mmd/ashby-paper-V6.pdf

Second, this isn't a "theory."  It's a poorly researched hypothesis.  EVERYONE will hammer you on this point: https://www.difference.wiki/hypothesis-vs-theory/

And third, for the record, I majored in English last century, I have worked as an editor (fiction and nonfiction), and I have published scientific papers as well as editied them.  I don't need to run something through Grammarly or any other program to be able to comment on style, grammar, and substance.  You would be advised to not snark at me over that.

Now I'm going to specifically address your essay, line by line, as you presented it to us.  Because of the length, it will be broken up into a number of posts for easier reading. 

 Rather than refer to line, I simply quote a few phrases of the sentence in question and leave it to you to find the sentence.

A note on citations- all citations that you make should be to papers that can back up their claims, either by referencing and confirming language/measurements/whatever.  You should be using mainly primary and secondary sources in all cases.  Don't use Graham Hancock, etc... those are 4th and 5th level sources and too far removed from the original data to be considered.  Use data from direct field work done by the authors themselves and historical documents with links to the translators and translations.

Also, the "gift of the Nile" is not water.  Egypt has plenty of water (their agricultural areas are all on the Nile, which is 300 times the size of the Mississippi river and never runs dry.)  The "gift" is the organic matter (soil) that came with each flood.  Without that soil, crops failed and people died although they had plenty of water right next to their houses.

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Kenemet

Part one:

 

 "The lake [Moeris] shows for itself; for almost in the middle of it..."  Whose translation?  Which edition?  Yes, it DOES make a difference and you will be called on this.
* "Now the king in excavating it..."  Whose translation?  Date of translation?
*  "....we have been able to connect all components in and around the Great Pyramid"  In fact, you have not discussed the causeway, the temple, the valley temple, the boat pits, queen's pyramids, mastabas, and a number of other components around the Great Pyramid (nor have you specified what you mean by "around the Great Pyramid" -- 2 feet?  10 feet?  Distance to the wall?  )
* "...he relied heavily on his own personal observations..."  What's the source for this claim?  How do you know this is true and not that he worked from descriptions by other travelers?  Where in his writings does he discuss his methodology?  Quote him on this and give the source and the translator unless you translate it yourself.
* " His books are comprised partially of personal accounts..."  citation needed.  How do you know this is true?  Which sources support your statement?

* "Clarification of watertight" This is a footnote and not a chapter in an essay.  Structurally, you should have the overview of your essay here and not a footnote presented as a chapter.
* "watertight" There is only one standard definition of "watertight."  Cite your definition and give the source
* "...each component that had blocks cut and placed with such precision that they are considered to be watertight..." What is the source for this claim?  Where are the watertight blocks located?  Which authors have confirmed that they're watertight and how were their measurements done?
 

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Kenemet

Part two:

* "GP Components" - this material is actually the legend on a diagram.  This has no business being in a paper unless you are spending a paragraph or more discussing each feature in turn, its position, and references to it by other papers.
* "Pipeline - A 3 ft.² primitive underground water... "  "3 ft square..." is meaningless if you're discussing a pipe.  It has length as well and is measured in cubic feet.  Second, what's the length of this so-called pipe and the volume capacity?  Third, why can't it be seen sticking out of the cliffs along the Nile (since the cliff banks have eroded backward since the time of the GP's build)  Fourth, what's the archaeological evidence for this?  Cite papers that show it exists and discuss what the evidence for this pipeline shows in terms of material and construction.,  You cannot "guess" or "hypothesize."  You must prove with documental evidence from other people.
* "A room created before the GP approximately 100 feet..."  Use accurate distance measurements and cite your source.  What is the dimension of the room?  What is the proof (from other sources) of its watertightness?  What is the volume of this room?
* The same comment applies to all the rest of the labels... what's their dimensions and the volume capacity and what are the sources for these figures?  What is the proof that they are watertight?
* "Moat (like you would find around a castle) -" What is your proof for the existence of this (proof of a moat would include soil sedimentation as well as sedimentation in various low-lying features.  You will need to cite several papers showing that this sediment is present)  You will also need to cite some of the original inscriptions by the Egyptians so show that there was a water feature there.
* "Approximately a 40-foot-wide area surrounding the pyramid composed of very short walls"  Cite EXACTLY how wide, and the size of the retaining walls and archaeological evidence (one or more papers) for where they are located and what they are made of.  You need to account for the thickness of the casing stones in your 40 ft estimate and show whose measurements you are using for the estimate of the location of the pyramid casing stones.
* "First Layer of casing stones - ..." - Where is citation for proof of watertightness and that they are "amazingly level."  How does their levelness support your idea?  Give citation for measurements and make sure they are original or if not original, that the discussion you link to has a link to someone like Petrie and original measurements.
* "Swivel Door - An exterior stone that could..." - Not shown on your diagram, evidence not shown of the existence of this (it should be shown when the term/item is first introduced.) dimensions not shown.
* "...- A room approximately 7-feet-wide" Use exact measurements -- to the inch.  Cite your source.  Show the volume.
* "(bottom half is considered water tight)" - how do you know?  What outside sources confirm this and what data did they use to confirm that the bottom half (and only the bottom half) is watertight?  Cite and discuss their data.
* "Open 8-Inch Shaft Exiting the King's Chamber " - There are two shafts in the King's Chamber... neither of them has this dimension.  You appear to be trying to describe one of the shafts in the Queen's chamber, but the dimensions are off. Also - explain why they are sealed with original casing stone (which you describe as "watertight" elsewhere) if they are supposed to be vents.
* "...This block does not appear to have a purpose. "  How do you know this?  Cite others who also say this block has no purpose and suggest reasons why an architect would suddenly drop a huge block like this in the middle of a passageway.
* your "diagram" is not to scale and shows features that do not exist inside the pyramid (the "grotto"?  If you are going to use a diagram, use a correctly proportioned one with measurements listed on the diagram and refer to the current descriptors of each component along with citations for the source material.

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Kenemet
Posted (edited)

Part three:

 

* "Other Components "  - an undiscussed list is not a component.
* "The Pharaohs were known for manipulating and controlling water." - what's your source for this statement?  What statements by pharaohs themselves support it (and whose translation are you using and where are these statements found?)*

"This theory reveals how the Pharaohs built the GP and used it to obtain wealth and power. " It's a hypothesis, not a theory.  Secondly, the pharaohs owned all the land (except for the small bit owned by nobles) and quite literally owned all the people in the land. Explain why complete ownership and control of all the land and temples and people in Egypt is not wealth or power.  See Monson, Andrew. "The Evolution of Land Rights: Public Farmers and Privatization in Roman Egypt." 10th Annual Conference of the International Society of the NIE held at Boulder CO, September 21-24. 2006. plus basic books on Egyptology for details, among other documents
* "Herodotus and other historians wrote about a connection between Lake Moeris and the GP"  Neither of the quotes you give talk about the Great Pyramid nor a connection between them.  In fact, they say the pyramids (two of them) are in the middle of a lake which is in the Fayum region.  USING ORIGINAL SOURCE MATERIAL (Herodotus and Diodorus in Greek) show your explanation for a corrected translation and explain the linguistic reasoning behind it.  Reasoning from an English translation that you didn't do doesn't count here.  Reasoning from a single sentence doesn't count... translate the entire passage and show that it supports your idea.
* " Constructing this would have been simple compared to building the moat or GP" - a note here.  You apparently have not worked on a long-range water pipe project, and it shows.
* "The majority of it would have been placed below the sand in the outskirts of the Nile in the sandy river bed that was softened by the Akhet season," There's no such thing as the "sandy river bed that was softened..."  There's no sand on the edge of the Nile.  It's all mud.  Gumbo-style mud.
* "...finally pass through the mountains above Memphis, and end somewhere near Lake Moeris." What's the path?  Show it on an eleation map of this area of Egypt.  Show how it passes through the mountains and where the evidence for this is.  Show the terminus.  Explain the dimensions and the volume of the water.

* "Transporting the blocks for building" - Lack of understanding of the features on Giza and lack of  reading about where the quarries are located and how we know this is the source of the limestone.
* "This would create a new river that enabled the building of the GP" - this "river" from the pyramid to the Nile would be descending some 90 feet in a matter of less than a mile -- so roughly creating a waterfall or amusement park slide ride.  Discuss how you think that someone's going to haul huge heavy rocks up the equivalent of a waterfall.  Get a book on hydraulics and show the volume of flow, the force of water, calculations on how you arrived at this, and how they handled the problem
* "why the ceremonial barge buried alongside the GP didn’t have a rudder or sail on it, but simply a large number of ropes" - the barges, in fact ,are too small to carry stones, and all of them have steering oars (rudders).  There are images from ancient Egypt showing boats carrying stones and none of them look like Khufu's solar barges. To overturn these claims you have to show your calculations suggesting that Khufu's boats are capable of carrying tall piles of stone without tipping over, which means calculating the center of gravity and displacement.  Show the tonnage of stone they are capable of carrying and cite papers which show your calculations are the correct ones for this kind of estimation.  Estimate the number of stones needed and the source of the stones and the length of the trip and then show how many boats would be needed to carry the number of stones so that the work could be completed in 20 years.
* "...The amazing precision in level and accuracy of the casing stones is probably.." Give a source and data for the claim of the precision and accuracy.  
* ".. It would cause water that filled the area inside the casing stones.." Now you seem to suggest that the pyramid is a hollow and somehow you can fill it like a water tank and that each course is demonstrably water tight.  Give evidence of how you know this is true and show work by other authors who confirm that this is possible.  Show how you know that each course is level and accurate (photo reference is preferable, as are accurate measurements.)
* "This stone/door blended in to the pyramids exterior so well that even the Governor of Cairo..." explain how the swivel door worked and what the traces are of it that can be found today.  Use archaeological measurements and cite sources that prove Strabo knew what he was talking about.
* Why does your diagram show Lake Moeris as being over 50 feet higher in elevation than the Great Pyramid?  It's over 90 feet lower than the GP.
* "... push the swivel door open, and then flow out the GP...." In order to do this, Lake Moeris would have to be more than 100 feet higher than the base of the Giza plateau.  Show evidence (with citations) that Lake Moeris was once 400-500 feet higher than it is today.
* "...people would be lead to believe water was pouring out of a solid formation,..."  Half the people in Egypt were engaged in building the pyramid for 20 years (and they had been building pyramids, thanks to Djoser and Sneferu for over 100 years.)  Explain why the people who built it and oversaw it would suddenly think this was a miracle.
* "...giving the Pharaohs the opportunity to create an incredible ceremony..." Cite evidence (hieroglyphic inscription from that time or at least no later than the Middle Kingdom) showing that there was such a ceremony.
* "5000 years ago, the Egyptians could have been gathered each year along the causeway..."  Annual ceremonies are recorded in the temples.  Cite evidence (hieroglyphs) from Khufu's temples showing that this was a ceremony held annually during his reign and how long it persisted and when it ended.
* "...the Pharaohs were able to take advantage of the citizens by creating a tax base to generate wealth and power..." You cite something from the time of Herodotus and it's about the fish in the lake and not in the Nile.  Money was not invented until around 600 BC.  Herodotus' comment on economics has nothing to do with what happened during the age of the pyramids. By that time, the balance of wealth and the tax structure had changed.
* "They built a canal that would reroute ..." Show the volume of the lake versus the volume of the flood and prove that during the 3 months of the flood that the lake could actually divert that much water.  Also, using the Nilometer data, show that no disastrous level floods occurred after the channel was built.   Give the dimensions of this canal and show the volume of water that flows through it compared to the volume of the Nile flood and show that it drains a significant volume.
* "During the drought seasons ..." explain what these were and why the Egyptians don't refer to them as drought seasons.
* "...water was routed through the system for personal consumption." Explain how they managed to do this when all the towns, farms, settlements and villages are ACROSS the Nile River (on the East bank) from the Fayum (in western Egypt).  There were properties and farms in the Fayum and they drew directly on Moeris for water/
* "Farming and ranching practices, coupled with everyday life choices resulted in the river becoming oxygen-depleted and nutrient-polluted* - show documentation that a nation of less than  a million individuals (there are multiple sources for this figure) can manage to heavily pollute a river the size of the Nile.
* "Towards the end of each year, a reduction of seasonal water would have exacerbated this pollution problem..." Show evidence from Egyptian sources of the time that the Nile annually shrank from being 300 times the size of the Mississippi River to something smaller than the size of most rivers in America.  Discuss the conditions that created this and which of the multiple sources of the Nile had this annual fluctuation, wth documentation of the events.
* "The fin-like walls carved in the floor of the sub chamber were formed to cause a vortex-like motion aiding water flow..."  Which chamber is this?  What is the size of the "vortex" structures?   Vortexes generally reduce water velocity.  Show the calculations how this helps water flow, and show the sources of the formulas that are being used.
* "The massive amount of erosion in the sub chamber..."  What is the evidence for erosion here, and who supports this claim of erosion and how was this determined.  
* "... was caused by water in it year-round and flowing through it approximately six months every year" - Explain how standing water in a "watertight" area causes erosion of granite rock (explain the chemistry of this, and use papers that document the Ph of the Nile and the erosion ability of standing water of that Ph on granite), and then explain how much hydraulic force is needed to erode granite and how the water is delivered with that kind of force without destroying other structures... and how they managed to get water to flow at that force.
 
* "Why did historians say the Pyramid..."  Explain how the historians managed to not know where Lake Moeris was.
* "Because of this, coupled with translational issues, these quotes have long been misinterpreted"  Show the original Greek quote and show examples from other documents (in the original Greek) that support your interpretation about the source of the water being the name of bodies of water rather than the place where they are located.  Show their strategy for avoiding name confusion with multiple bodies of water having the same name because they came from the same source.
* " we speculate that the historians were likely told that the GP was in the middle of “water of Lake Moeris”, not Lake Moeris itself. " Using the rest of the source (not just the sentences you listed) explain where the structures (and topology) are located in Giza that have been confused with Moeris (such as the labrynth) and why the ancient authors didn't note the other structures at Giza when they were describing Lake Moeris.
 

Edited by Kenemet
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Kenemet
Posted (edited)

Part four:

 

UNADDRESSED ISSUES:
Doesn't address the sediment issue at all; levels of sediment in the Nile and sedimentary deposits and silting that would have put mud all throughout the Great Pyramid... and how they got the mud out.  It will be amusing to see this discussion after the authors have themselves climbed down into the GP and then imagined themselves trying to haul up baskets of mud through the passageways.  In the dark.  With oil lamps.  Yearly.
The Fayum and Lake Moeris both are at a lower elevation than Giza and the Great Pyramid.  They always have been.  No explanation of how water got from the lake to Giza.
No explanation of why water pouring out of a structure in a cemetery located less than a quarter mile from the river onto land that could not be used to grow crops was supposed to be a miracle when the flood was right at the edges of the plateau and was bringing lifegiving black soil to the land along with water.
No sourced discussion of the geology of the area, including the impact of the sediments and the structure of the landscape although this should be central for the evidence.
No discussion of the culture or the kingdom of ancient Egypt or the farming practices and canals of 2500 BC  In fact, a complete lack of understanding of the culture and civilization and technology of ancient Egypt and how wealth was distributed and redistributed.


Good reference on the geology of the Fayum: http://wisdomofnations.com/egypt/hawara/hawara-research-2008-2009-report/


 

Edited by Kenemet
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Kenemet

Part five:... so don't tell me I didn't read that essay of yours, which was apparently cobbled together as an idea after reading a few posts somewhere on ancient Egypt and presumed "mysteries."   It's clear that your knowledge of Egypt, engineering, physics, and culture is considerably lacking.  My fellow scholars could probably add other points of consideration to the four pages I've just posted, should they feel they have the time and interest.

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jaylemurph
4 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

 My fellow scholars could probably add other points of consideration to the four pages I've just posted, should they feel they have the time and interest.

...I don’t think you’ve left any need for that. 

—Jaylemurph 

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Hanslune
16 minutes ago, Brianbabs56 said:

In this picture, the left side shows the 53 foot passage, and bottom shows the unending passage. Those are the 2 we are taking about. 

We have 3 reasons for our assertion. 1) it is the least explored area of the Pyramid, the exploration was in the early 1900's. 

2) Herodotus interviewed the builders' ancestors and was told of a connection between it and Lake Moeris

3) If you accept his writings as fact, rather than attributing it to constellations, every component that makes up the Pyramid (which we list on our paper) becomes necessary and useful. This has never been done.

...sorry but there is no pipe from the lake there. It's an unfinished passage that ends in rock. I think someone would have noted if there was a pipe there or something full of debris.

 

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Kenemet
1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

...I don’t think you’ve left any need for that. 

—Jaylemurph 

Oh, I have.  Believe me, a good linguist could hammer a lot of that to pieces (I know just enough linguistics to know this.)  And a real hydraulics engineer and a real geologist would have a field day.

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Hanslune
8 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Part five:... so don't tell me I didn't read that essay of yours, which was apparently cobbled together as an idea after reading a few posts somewhere on ancient Egypt and presumed "mysteries."   It's clear that your knowledge of Egypt, engineering, physics, and culture is considerably lacking.  My fellow scholars could probably add other points of consideration to the four pages I've just posted, should they feel they have the time and interest.

Glad you weren't my Thesis adviser!

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Kenemet
28 minutes ago, Brianbabs56 said:

2) Herodotus interviewed the builders' ancestors and was told of a connection between it and Lake Moeris

Used ouija boards, did he?  Called up a necromancer to raise them from the dead and question them?

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Kenemet
Just now, Hanslune said:

Glad you weren't my Thesis adviser!

You should have seen my thesis advisors (particularly when I tried to trot in the math!)

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cormac mac airt
1 hour ago, Brianbabs56 said:

I think you are misinterpreting us. That might be our fault. We aren't looking for the elevation of Lake Moeris since water hasn't been in it for thousands of years. We are looking for the elevation of the ancient connection of the Nile to Lake Moeris. This elevation would be more representative of our assertion. 

Nope, your very own “theory” as linked by the OP shows EXACTLY what you’ve been trying to promote. As stated by myself and more recently Kenemet Lake Moeris has NEVER been higher in elevation than the base of the GP, let alone the entrance thereof. You’re making up a hydraulics situation that HAS NEVER existed. Why are you not taking responsibility for your error? 

cormac

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jaylemurph

Because then he would have to concede it is an error. 

—Jaylemurph 

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cormac mac airt
24 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You should have seen my thesis advisors (particularly when I tried to trot in the math!)

We could really use Kmt_sesh right about now. 

cormac

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cormac mac airt
Just now, jaylemurph said:

Because then he would have to concede it is an error. 

—Jaylemurph 

I know. Was hoping he was willing to pull his foot out of his mouth though. There’s really no excuse for doing no reasonable amount of verifiable research BEFORE writing up his speculation. 

cormac

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Brianbabs56
29 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Used ouija boards, did he?  Called up a necromancer to raise them from the dead and question them?

I suppose relatives would have been better wording there. And we read your posts, thank you for taking the time to look at our paper. It is true, we are not scholars and have clearly not written something that can withstand a high level of grammar edits and such. That doesn't mean the items we have listed aren't there, just because we don't site a source as evidence for a moat doesn't mean it's not there. We wrote this paper under the assumption that an egyptologist would read it and already have an understanding that these items exist. The concept of our "blog post" is simple, and something that Egyptians would have been able to understand and accomplish, the only 2 things holding us back are the pipeline being blocked off, and the elevations which we are looking into. Any hydrologist today, if those two items are as we say, would admit that the components of the pyramid could work exactly as we say.

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