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aztek

Abortion exceptions

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Gromdor
30 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Who actually personally knows someone who has unprotected sex frequently with the idea that they will just get an abortion?

I have never met a person like that. I'm sure there are some super trashy individuals out there but that's a small minority. 

The idea keeps getting thrown around that that is a normal thing but I find it unlikely.

The only person I ever knew that had an abortion said the experience hurt, was horrible, and was distraught over having to have it.  That being said, she was a homeless, unemployed, drug user that got pregnant from either her boyfriend, her (ex)roomate's boyfriend, or the guy they both were messing around with on the side.  I don't think adoption even crossed her mind, but then again no one wants to adopt a baby from that kind of background.

 We do have a baby abandonment law: https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2019/03/01/iowa-safe-haven-law-baby-boy-adoption-foster-care-department-of-human-services-dhs/3031238002/

But that wasn't in effect back when this girl did it.  Last I heard she moved to Maine, cleaned up her act, got married and had 3 kids.

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Big Jim
6 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Edit to add:  I don't think anyone really cares about kids put up for adoption or in foster homes, hence the lack of data. 

That's hard to believe.  There's a study for everything.  Our economy runs on statistics.  A lot of funding goes into caring for kids who don't have parents so there has to be some data.  Whenever there are government agencies involved there are plenty of reports, budgets, analyses, etc.  In my lifetime I don't think there's been a single politician who hasn't at least once said "it's for the children" or some variation thereof.  Even if they were lying there would be a trail of money to make it look like they cared.

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Big Jim
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Who actually personally knows someone who has unprotected sex frequently with the idea that they will just get an abortion?

I have never met a person like that. I'm sure there are some super trashy individuals out there but that's a small minority. 

The idea keeps getting thrown around that that is a normal thing but I find it unlikely.

It's not like they'd tell you.  In an earlier post I mentioned my wife's experience as an insurance claims processor.  Abortion as birth control was quite common, with some women having more than one per year. It occurred so often that it upset her enough to talk about it which is how I know.  These apparently weren't "super trashy" women as at least they were well enough employed to have a good insurance plan. 

Edited by Big Jim
typo correction
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Michelle

I worked in a ob/gyn's office part time right out of high school for about a year. He didn't do abortions and had to send them to another facility. Part of my job was coordinating the appointments. It was shocking how cavalier a lot of them were about it and how many they had already had.

I did my best not to show any emotion and be professional, but it was difficult.

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Jodie.Lynne

Just a thought, but why isn't there any talk of legislating vasectomies?

Imagine the uproar if men were suddenly subjected to laws enacted by women, in order to control a very personal decision about men's bodies.

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Big Jim
1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Just a thought, but why isn't there any talk of legislating vasectomies?

Imagine the uproar if men were suddenly subjected to laws enacted by women, in order to control a very personal decision about men's bodies.

Perhaps because it doesn't involve the taking of another life.  Contrary to the political rhetoric, abortion laws are enacted for the purpose of protecting the unborn, not to control women.  There are many instances in our legal system where the government steps in to defend those who can't defend themselves.  Some examples are guardian ad litem and public defender.

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Michelle

Vasectomies don't kill another living being. Women aren't being forced to have their tubes tied. They are the ones responsible for their bodies. They don't have to allow themselves to become pregnant. It's all in their control at this point in time.

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Jodie.Lynne
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Michelle said:

It's all in their control at this point in time.

Except, that accidents do happen, and despite one's best efforts, pregnancy results.

Exceptions should be allowed, regardless of how low the instances of rape or incest are.

And why is it that so many pro-lifers are no longer concerned about the child, once it's born?

Quote

They are the ones responsible for their bodies

Apparently not, since the government and every busybody in the country wants to tell what they should or can do with their own biological functions.

Edited by Jodie.Lynne
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Michelle
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

And why is it that so many pro-lifers are no longer concerned about the child, once it's born?

Why is it pro-choice people can't accept the other side of the coin? I didn't want to have a child of my own, so I took care of business with two forms of birth control. I was on the pill and if he wanted any he bought condoms. The odds were practically nill at getting pregnant.

By the way, I am pro-choice...more so pro-smart.

 

Edited by Michelle
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Jodie.Lynne
3 minutes ago, Michelle said:

By the way, I am pro-choice...more so pro-smart.

So am I, believe it or not. It isn't my particular option, but it needs be made a choice for those who need it. Neither you, or I, or any one else has the authority to stand in someone else's shoes and dictate what they feel is best.

But in order to be pro-choice, a choice must be available, yes?

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Michelle
5 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

But in order to be pro-choice, a choice must be available, yes?

Yes, and by the time the fetus is viable outside of the womb a decision should have already been made and action taken. That is where I draw my line.

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Jodie.Lynne
9 minutes ago, Michelle said:

Yes, and by the time the fetus is viable outside of the womb a decision should have already been made and action taken. That is where I draw my line.

Is a fetus viable outside the womb at 6 weeks?

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Michelle
4 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Is a fetus viable outside the womb at 6 weeks?

Of course not. But when you have one extreme fighting against another extreme you have to leave room for negotiations. One side pushed it too far and the other responded in kind.

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strunk64
On 5/25/2019 at 3:16 AM, aztek said:

6 weeks is sufficient, they do not need medical care to find out, every pharmacy sells tests, they cost less than a pack of cigarettes. all they need is to test when their period is not when it should be.

so how are they getting abortions then, if  they can't afford a test or a pill? abortions are more expensive,  

i do not see how your examples prove much, can you elaborate? seems like  early pill abortion  would benefit them.

This is from a blog I read, she is an author. I live in Ohio and had heard a few days ago that this is buried in the "heartbeat bill".  

Quote

Ohio representative John Becker needs a reality check. He has introduced a bill in Ohio to limit access to certain types of birth control. Specifically, birth control that prevents a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine wall. He’s decided this is a form of abortion.

This concerns me, because I live in a state that tends to be conservative and I could see some of our lawmakers introducing similar bills. So what forms of birth control prevent a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterine wall? Well, all IUDs, some birth control pills, and Depo Provera could fall into this category, since Depo Prevents the uterus from building a lining for the egg to implant in. Also, the emergency contraceptive Plan B would be less available.

https://hadenajames.wordpress.com/2019/05/24/ohios-john-becker/?

 

 

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Jodie.Lynne

Which the current climate leaves no room for.

Negotiation, I mean. 

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Jodie.Lynne

@strunk64

Great article, thanks for sharing!

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Big Jim
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

And why is it that so many pro-lifers are no longer concerned about the child, once it's born?

How do you know they're not?  There is a large network of child advocacy and protective services in this country.  Somebody has to staff them.  Somebody has to volunteer to be foster parents and arrange adoptions.  I used to work as a houseparent for unwanted, disturbed or delinquent teenagers.  There were many levels of staff, all concerned with children who were already born.  I didn't know or care about their views on abortion, but their dedication to and concern for the welfare of children was genuine.  Odds are many of them were pro-life.  The answer to your question could also be that they are too busy raising their own children to worry about others, since they didn't abort them.

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Michelle
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, strunk64 said:

This concerns me, because I live in a state that tends to be conservative and I could see some of our lawmakers introducing similar bills

" could see some of our lawmakers introducing such bills" ? Typical scaremongering. Nothing like that would ever pass. :rolleyes:

Maybe education is the answer. Nothing is unavailable to anyone in the US.

https://lab.express-scripts.com/lab/insights/drug-options/2019-national-preferred-formulary-better-access-better-value

I order from them for all of my heart medications and they are much cheaper. It does take a little effort to explore all your options.

Edited by Michelle
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Jerry Gallo
11 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

Who actually personally knows someone who has unprotected sex frequently with the idea that they will just get an abortion?

I have never met a person like that. I'm sure there are some super trashy individuals out there but that's a small minority. 

The idea keeps getting thrown around that that is a normal thing but I find it unlikely.

You tell me...

1.559M of the 6.138M pregnancies in 2011 were women who were non-cohabiting. (25%)

1.216M of the 1.559M non-cohabiting pregnancies in 2011 were unintended. (78%)

675K of the 1.216M non-cohabiting, unintended pregnancies in 2011 ended in abortion. (56%)

675K non-cohabiting abortions accounted for 58% of the 1.167M abortions in 2011.

Take out the 15-19 age group from the non-cohabiting group, you get the following updated info...

985K of the 1.559M non-cohabiting pregnancies in 2011 were adult women. (63%) Overall, 985K of 6.138M (16%)

786K of the 985K adult, non-cohabiting pregnancies in 2011 were unintended. (80%) 

512K of the 786K adult, non-cohabiting unintended pregnancies in 2011 ended in abortion. (65%)

512K adult, non-cohabiting abortions accounted for 76% of all non-cohabiting abortions in 2011. Overall, 512K of 1.167M (44%)

By contrast and for reference, married women...

3.084M of the 6.138M pregnancies (50%)

731K of the 3.084M pregnancies were unintended (24%)

168K of the 731K unintended pregnancies ended in abortion (23%)

168K married abortions accounted for 14% of the 1.167M abortions in 2011.

Add to this the CDC statistics from 2011...

53.7% of all reported abortions were first time abortions. 46.3% were at least the second. 9.3% were on their third one or more.

These are not my statistics and I willingly admit they don't drill down to the immediate behavior. And to be clear, mine isn't a statement of judgment, I'd just prefer to discuss reality over rhetoric. I don't know about you, but the 80% unintended pregnancy rate and the 65% abortion rate of those unintended pregnancies, which covers a half-million abortions in a single year, I'd conclude that "small minority, not normal, or not likely" are naive or unaware. Especially when feminism has been conditioning young women on free love since the early 70's. Over 100K abortions in 2011 were the third or more...pretty stark, yes? And not to worry, I'll get to the dudes in the next post.

Links for above data...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1506575 (Table 1)

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6311a1.htm?s_cid=ss6311a1_w (Table 19)

 

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Jerry Gallo
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Hold on Jerry, how do you have a post-birth abortion?  Isn't that infanticide?  If you kill an 8 year old child, is that post-birth abortion?  If you turn off life support for a 95 year old man consumed by cancer, is that post birth abortion?  Is this a philosophical way to equate an infant at birth with a recently fertilized egg? 

From what I get out of the press, this question arose considering the fate of a fetus that cannot survive.  The question then becomes one of do the parents "wrap it in a blanket nicely" and love it and comfort it until it dies or choose to take Herculean efforts to hook the infant to machines and keep its body tissue living whether it has consciousness or not?  Does giving pain alleviating medication constitute murder? Is murder giving a drug that will stop the heart?  I don't know what is actually done.

Yeah there are some deep moral dilemmas here and they naturally lead to emotion.  

My wife had a miscarriage of a second child we really wanted to have.  It took us a long time, especially my wife to overcome that sadness.   My best friend's third child died immediately after birth.   His wife was destroyed.  Fifteen years later, she has not recovered.   I do not want to put myself in the place of judging the actions of a parent who brought a child to term and finds it cannot survive.  Do you ease its pain and let it go or cause it to stay and suffer?  I don't know an answer that would satisfy all cases.

 

Just as an aside, it takes two people, a male and a female both having unprotected sex for conception to occur.  Men need to take more responsibility.  Why would a man who does not believe in abortion or have any intention of being a father to a child he is about to conceive ever have unprotected sex?  Responsible men should not rely solely on women to take precautions.

 

Last part first...YES!...a million times YES! Here's my requisite stance on men. It's all your fault if you knowingly engage in unprotected sex (drunk or not), you better be prepared to pay for that child until he/she is done with four years of college as a minimum. And I'm not talking about the minimum mandatory required by the state, I am talking your time, your primary attention in helping to raise the child, doing MORE than what is required. You better have a great job, have impeccable character, and learn lessons easily to not repeat your ignorance over and over. I am not opposed to any method that forces these men to pony up, they are 50% responsible on this issue...period.

As for the post-birth deal, it is infanticide now, but it seems some want to redefine it, tell us some sad story to get to legalize it. And yes, there will be some dire situations in which I can empathize with the parent and the child and comprehend the logic. I also know that we've progressed from a court ruling that clearly stated first trimester to people now not even giving it a second thought that the state of NY has no restrictions. Turning off life support is not the same as giving a drug to stop the heart. The latter is euthanasia, doesn't matter if the person is five minutes old or a hundred as far as I am concerned.

Ours was our first, delayed our eventual two and made for a lot more trepidation than most likely have. Sorry you both also had to go through that. I too have experience with loved ones whose kids had significant medical issues at birth, one lost and three others with so many medical issues I can't imagine the strength it took to raise them. Thing is, the three who lived are seemingly happy, parents don't look aged beyond their years, everyone relatively well adjusted. None would choose differently. Sometimes life is hard, unfair, devastating. I pray for those folks, just for strength, for peace, for healing. I just don't think a law that let's us extinguish the broken life is going to make that loss any less painful or life altering.

Edited by Jerry Gallo
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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Jerry Gallo said:

you better be prepared to pay for that child until he/she is done with four years of college as a minimum. A

What if the guy finds out that the kids isn't his. Then what?

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Jerry Gallo
8 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Just a thought, but why isn't there any talk of legislating vasectomies?

Imagine the uproar if men were suddenly subjected to laws enacted by women, in order to control a very personal decision about men's bodies.

Well, the easy answer is because there was never any legislating on abortion. So, fill the courts with your people and it can be done just like Roe was.

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Jerry Gallo
34 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

What if the guy finds out that the kids isn't his. Then what?

Then the payments stop. A simple DNA test can clear this up before it ever gets to that.

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spartan max2
3 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

You tell me...

1.559M of the 6.138M pregnancies in 2011 were women who were non-cohabiting. (25%)

1.216M of the 1.559M non-cohabiting pregnancies in 2011 were unintended. (78%)

675K of the 1.216M non-cohabiting, unintended pregnancies in 2011 ended in abortion. (56%)

675K non-cohabiting abortions accounted for 58% of the 1.167M abortions in 2011.

Take out the 15-19 age group from the non-cohabiting group, you get the following updated info...

985K of the 1.559M non-cohabiting pregnancies in 2011 were adult women. (63%) Overall, 985K of 6.138M (16%)

786K of the 985K adult, non-cohabiting pregnancies in 2011 were unintended. (80%) 

512K of the 786K adult, non-cohabiting unintended pregnancies in 2011 ended in abortion. (65%)

512K adult, non-cohabiting abortions accounted for 76% of all non-cohabiting abortions in 2011. Overall, 512K of 1.167M (44%)

By contrast and for reference, married women...

3.084M of the 6.138M pregnancies (50%)

731K of the 3.084M pregnancies were unintended (24%)

168K of the 731K unintended pregnancies ended in abortion (23%)

168K married abortions accounted for 14% of the 1.167M abortions in 2011.

Add to this the CDC statistics from 2011...

53.7% of all reported abortions were first time abortions. 46.3% were at least the second. 9.3% were on their third one or more.

These are not my statistics and I willingly admit they don't drill down to the immediate behavior. And to be clear, mine isn't a statement of judgment, I'd just prefer to discuss reality over rhetoric. I don't know about you, but the 80% unintended pregnancy rate and the 65% abortion rate of those unintended pregnancies, which covers a half-million abortions in a single year, I'd conclude that "small minority, not normal, or not likely" are naive or unaware. Especially when feminism has been conditioning young women on free love since the early 70's. Over 100K abortions in 2011 were the third or more...pretty stark, yes? And not to worry, I'll get to the dudes in the next post.

Links for above data...

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1506575 (Table 1)

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6311a1.htm?s_cid=ss6311a1_w (Table 19)

 

I'm not sure what this is suppose to show me or what you are trying to assert?

The U.S has a population of 327 million.

After getting rid of the 15-19 we had around 600k abortions.

65 percent of unintended pregnencies ending in abortion makes sense, isn't that the point of abortions ?

Someone I know got pregnant while on birth control. 

You got to be more clear on your point I'm confused ?

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Gromdor
12 hours ago, Big Jim said:

That's hard to believe.  There's a study for everything.  Our economy runs on statistics.  A lot of funding goes into caring for kids who don't have parents so there has to be some data.  Whenever there are government agencies involved there are plenty of reports, budgets, analyses, etc.  In my lifetime I don't think there's been a single politician who hasn't at least once said "it's for the children" or some variation thereof.  Even if they were lying there would be a trail of money to make it look like they cared.

It would probably be closer to the truth to say that they know but the numbers reflect poorly so it isn't disseminated- kinda like the civilian death toll in our middle east conflicts.  There is political capital to be had on both sides of the abortion issue.  They don't really want to diminish it's importance with something as trivial as the stats on the actual fate of the kids.

Here is a quick google: https://adoptionnetwork.com/adoption-statistics

Average age of child waiting to be adopted: 8 years old.

Average race: Black

Majority sex: Male

428,000 in Foster Care with only 135,000 adopted every year. (Compare that with the number of abortions each year and either this system collapses or 10x as many people need to step up and start adopting.) 

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