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aztek

Abortion exceptions

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Kismit
8 hours ago, rashore said:

Once upon a time people were encouraged to marry young and expected to start having children in wedlock right away. Also along that time, unwed women who found themselves pregnant were often sent off to somewhere (vacation to X place, or seeing X family abroad and the like for excuses) and sequestered to have that child in secret- or at least as secret as it could be kept. Maternity homes, private and quite a bit through the church also hid these unwed mothers away. Of course those babies went away too- to orphanages or to be adopted. Once upon a time unwed mothers were something not to be talked about, and daughters could be stowed away for months of pregnancy confinement without the neighbors asking too much. Or if they took a bad fall or an illness before it was noticeable- well, if it showed up on the medical records, that's between the doc, and the parents, and not so much the unwed mother.

Once upon a time, if a man got a woman pregnant, he was expected to marry her and follow through with the pregnancy too, regardless if he wanted/was ready to, or up for marriage or not- a lot of men were forced into marriage and fatherhood rather than the choice of abortion just as much as a lot of unwed mothers that didn't get sent away or had their wanted or not pregnancy hidden. A lot of women were forced into marriages they did or didn't want because that's how pregnancy was dealt with if not... sent away.

An interesting site with some statistical info about historical adoption, abortion, fostering... lots good numbers and such: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/adoptionstats.html

Adoptions were at an ever climbing rate from 1940 till around the time that women started being able to have more access to and more legal rights to have abortions. Then the adoptions take a serious nosedive, and the abortions take a serious uptick. Along the same time and not in the link, women were granted the legal ability to have birth control for themselves- first married women, then unwed. The introduction of that in the 60's has had an overall impact too.

It may be to an extent that 86% of abortions are to unwed mothers now is because there has always been a fairly high percentage of "unwanted/can't happens" amongst unweds for a long time. Once upon a time we required them to go into seclusion and carry out the pregnancy and give the child up- then we decided to make it legal for women to stop the pregnancy before that if they chose to do so- and a lot of them did, or didn't. And at the same time, as society has gotten more accepting of single parenthood- stats are showing that single mothers have climbed up and are having more motherhood than the amount of abortions that have been going down a bit more recently.

I'm not so sure it's marriage that kept things at a minimum once upon a time. Perhaps how folks dealt with the situation in some ways. How society has dealt with it and not.

 

 

The problems where hidden. A child who grows up in foster care and orphanages is no different to the single parent phenomenon. And many marriages which started young were also no different to single parent families. We are just more honest about it now 

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darkmoonlady

How many of you have adopted or fostered kids? How many of you are supporting kids that aren't yours biologically? 

Are you having sex? If you are then are you sterilized? Why not? Basically the premise of this thread is punish women for having sex. Punish women for using birth control if it fails (which it does for a number of reasons). The hatred of women this thread by some is palpable. Literally saying why should a woman get an abortion for being raped. And by the way the statistics on here are laughable, one, rape is underreported across the board for a lot of reasons, domestic abuse, or hell maybe a woman isn't believed, or doesn't want to face the man who brutalized her but of course she should carry his offspring especially when in many states rapists have visitation rights. Also the number of women who died from back alley abortions or home abortions is difficult to quantify because women who died from it were often hidden from the family or it wasn't reported as an abortion attempt so the family didn't have to deal with the social shame of the time. If a woman survived a botched abortion but was sick, she couldn't seek medical help because it was illegal and she could go to jail. A lot of women just killed themselves. 

If you dont like abortion why? How is it any of your business? How is it you think you know better than a woman if she is ready to give birth? Maternal deaths are on the rise. It's not a risk free thing to carry and give birth. Frankly the attitudes toward women by some on this thread go well beyond abortion to just plain hating women which if that is your stance it still doesn't give you the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies. 

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Jerry Gallo
Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

How many of you have adopted or fostered kids? How many of you are supporting kids that aren't yours biologically? 

Are you having sex? If you are then are you sterilized? Why not? Basically the premise of this thread is punish women for having sex. Punish women for using birth control if it fails (which it does for a number of reasons). The hatred of women this thread by some is palpable. Literally saying why should a woman get an abortion for being raped. And by the way the statistics on here are laughable, one, rape is underreported across the board for a lot of reasons, domestic abuse, or hell maybe a woman isn't believed, or doesn't want to face the man who brutalized her but of course she should carry his offspring especially when in many states rapists have visitation rights. Also the number of women who died from back alley abortions or home abortions is difficult to quantify because women who died from it were often hidden from the family or it wasn't reported as an abortion attempt so the family didn't have to deal with the social shame of the time. If a woman survived a botched abortion but was sick, she couldn't seek medical help because it was illegal and she could go to jail. A lot of women just killed themselves

If you dont like abortion why? How is it any of your business? How is it you think you know better than a woman if she is ready to give birth? Maternal deaths are on the rise. It's not a risk free thing to carry and give birth. Frankly the attitudes toward women by some on this thread go well beyond abortion to just plain hating women which if that is your stance it still doesn't give you the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies. 

First, let's correct some of your errors...why is activism so dishonest?

No one wants to punish women for having sex. There is no hatred of women. If asking women to be responsible EVERY time they have sex and knowing that birth control can fail, asking her to bear the burden if things go south (without killing a baby inside after eight weeks) is punitive and hatred, then that means I want to punish my teenage sons and I hate them for holding them to these two standards. If I had daughters, the same standard would apply. Ensure there are "his and hers" protection no matter what. And have the morning after pill available before you chance an unintended pregnancy. And if you think that piece of advice is anti-women, take your fight to PP, as they offer the same advice. 

If statistics are laughable, why do pro-choice sites publish them as meaningful? We use the data we have; we form conclusions off that data. Abortion info is also under-reported, some states don’t report data to the CDC, California chief among them.

I’m sure rape is under-reported, the question is, how much does it change the 0.14-0.50% as reasons women give for abortion? I’ve said on the record I agree with rape/incest exception. My only request is that any decision to abort due to rape is the mother’s decision alone and not coerced by doctors, family or counselors due to potential psychological impact. That said, according to Guttmacher and State of Florida surveys, 85-95% of abortions are elective, having nothing to do with health issues, rape or incest.

All these things about back alley abortions and all the reasons behind it, I am sure those were issues. But even the pro-choice articles minimize how often it happened. It’s cliché at this point, abortion is legal, the fight is about extending those rights to second and third trimester. You won't even acknowledge why there is current discourse, other than some passionate reasoning that tugs at the heartstrings for late term abortion. What about the other side? You think a callous decision in those late minutes isn't going to be under-reported? You think the pro-choice lobby is going to highlight a decision based on a last minute decision to abort for no real reason? How is it hatred or punishment to ask the question of how often women are at fault for unintended pregnancy? I don't think it's all, I don't think it's necessarily a majority. Whatever the percentage, it's as if you want us to believe women are never to blame. That's folly.

I don’t like abortion because it kills life. The laws about abortion are my concern, laws that protect the unborn. Someone must advocate for babies in the womb. If you are pro-choice for women, why not pro-choice for babies? Why not assume their choice is to live?

Among all this repetitive use of these talking points, you still won’t answer questions or address the seedier side of the abortion issue.

How often are women having unsafe sex? What are your thoughts on women who have had three or more abortions? How do you feel about an abortion at 39 weeks if there are no medical concerns for the mother or the baby?

Edited by Jerry Gallo
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skliss
10 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Hi Skliss, I have brought up male responsibility in several other of my posts on this thread.  In fact, at one point I was advocating prison or castration for males that fathered a child and did not take responsibility for raising it.  

In the modern world, that seems like a punishment too harsh to gain acceptance.   But everybody seems to understand money, and a financial responsibility law might actually stand a chance of being passed.

My hat is off to you in salute.  I admire the way you taught your sons, and I have had the same talk and tried to raise a responsible son, in all aspects of life.  Abstinence is not an evil word, and that too is often the preferred course of action; because it saves heartbreak and sometimes lies and false promises as well as unexpected or unwanted pregnancy.  But humans being what they are, young people can be overpowered by their drives and emotions.  In those cases, contraception is the responsibility of both parties.

 

The state cannot and should not force all parents to follow your example, even if it did make for a better country.   That would send off major  alarms for all of those who hate socialism and nanny states. Interfering in parenting is not a conservative value.

But, I still maintain that the state could enforce male responsibility on those who were not fortunate enough to have a mother like you.   A law like that might stand a chance of passing, especially in the south where the new laws on abortion have been appearing.

 

Castration is obviously a ridiculous idea designed to obscure the real issues. There are men who have been willing to endure prison rather than pay child support. That's why courts had to implement wage garnishing...Even then there are men who would rather not work than pay.

I never said the state should follow my example or force education even though every high school has some sort of sex education requirement. I'm not sure its the same ones we got where they showed the results of diseases and such. Pictures go a long way towards generating second thoughts. They seem more concerned these days with pushing the small percent of bi-sexua or gender fluidity issues than teaching general sex education and consequences.

Maybe the laws are a last ditch effort to make people rethink consequences or remember to be responsible.

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darkmoonlady
1 hour ago, Jerry Gallo said:

First, let's correct some of your errors...why is activism so dishonest?

No one wants to punish women for having sex. There is no hatred of women. If asking women to be responsible EVERY time they have sex and knowing that birth control can fail, asking her to bear the burden if things go south (without killing a baby inside after eight weeks) is punitive and hatred, then that means I want to punish my teenage sons and I hate them for holding them to these two standards. If I had daughters, the same standard would apply. Ensure there are "his and hers" protection no matter what. And have the morning after pill available before you chance an unintended pregnancy. And if you think that piece of advice is anti-women, take your fight to PP, as they offer the same advice. 

If statistics are laughable, why do pro-choice sites publish them as meaningful? We use the data we have; we form conclusions off that data. Abortion info is also under-reported, some states don’t report data to the CDC, California chief among them.

I’m sure rape is under-reported, the question is, how much does it change the 0.14-0.50% as reasons women give for abortion? I’ve said on the record I agree with rape/incest exception. My only request is that any decision to abort due to rape is the mother’s decision alone and not coerced by doctors, family or counselors due to potential psychological impact. That said, according to Guttmacher and State of Florida surveys, 85-95% of abortions are elective, having nothing to do with health issues, rape or incest.

All these things about back alley abortions and all the reasons behind it, I am sure those were issues. But even the pro-choice articles minimize how often it happened. It’s cliché at this point, abortion is legal, the fight is about extending those rights to second and third trimester. You won't even acknowledge why there is current discourse, other than some passionate reasoning that tugs at the heartstrings for late term abortion. What about the other side? You think a callous decision in those late minutes isn't going to be under-reported? You think the pro-choice lobby is going to highlight a decision based on a last minute decision to abort for no real reason? How is it hatred or punishment to ask the question of how often women are at fault for unintended pregnancy? I don't think it's all, I don't think it's necessarily a majority. Whatever the percentage, it's as if you want us to believe women are never to blame. That's folly.

I don’t like abortion because it kills life. The laws about abortion are my concern, laws that protect the unborn. Someone must advocate for babies in the womb. If you are pro-choice for women, why not pro-choice for babies? Why not assume their choice is to live?

Among all this repetitive use of these talking points, you still won’t answer questions or address the seedier side of the abortion issue.

How often are women having unsafe sex? What are your thoughts on women who have had three or more abortions? How do you feel about an abortion at 39 weeks if there are no medical concerns for the mother or the baby?

Wow lot to unpack here. 

I'm not an activist I'm a disabled woman whose always known if I got pregnant I'd have to abort. If birth control failed me (as it does thousands of women every day from things as simple as taking antibiotics) it would be mean my life. So take your activism dishonesty and shove it. Its personal. 

Here is my answer to your second paragraph, it's none of my business ( or yours) how many abortions a woman has. It's not my body. I certainly wouldn't want someone else making that decision for me. Having sex is a responsibility but it more than falls on the woman since she has to give birth according to your beliefs. Whether she is ready, whether she wants to, is financially able to, emotionally ready to...for you that doesn't factor in. Ok, then you go down to your local Foster agency and ask them how many kids they have waiting for a family. Ask them how many horrific abuse cases they see every year. Where do you think unwanted kids go? In Georgia half the kids that age out of foster care end up homeless. 

Women don't have abortions at 39 weeks. That's ridiculous. Doesn't happen. Neither does medical infanticide, which is illegal. Women having late term abortions account for 1.3 percent of abortions and they happen for medical reasons. As for the Florida statistics the survey you bring up one doesn't show what the possible answers were. Women don't usually put on the questionnaire my boyfriend hits me and I have no where to go, or I was drugged and raped. And even if they did just decide not to reproduce, it is in the end none of your business. You have no right to control someone else's body. You have weird and incorrect conspiracy theories about what actually happens ( more to the point what does not happen) so your frame of reference is skewed. Dont like abortion, dont have one. Beyond that it has nothing to do with you. 

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preacherman76
7 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

How many of you have adopted or fostered kids? How many of you are supporting kids that aren't yours biologically? 

Are you having sex? If you are then are you sterilized? Why not? Basically the premise of this thread is punish women for having sex. Punish women for using birth control if it fails (which it does for a number of reasons). The hatred of women this thread by some is palpable. Literally saying why should a woman get an abortion for being raped. And by the way the statistics on here are laughable, one, rape is underreported across the board for a lot of reasons, domestic abuse, or hell maybe a woman isn't believed, or doesn't want to face the man who brutalized her but of course she should carry his offspring especially when in many states rapists have visitation rights. Also the number of women who died from back alley abortions or home abortions is difficult to quantify because women who died from it were often hidden from the family or it wasn't reported as an abortion attempt so the family didn't have to deal with the social shame of the time. If a woman survived a botched abortion but was sick, she couldn't seek medical help because it was illegal and she could go to jail. A lot of women just killed themselves. 

If you dont like abortion why? How is it any of your business? How is it you think you know better than a woman if she is ready to give birth? Maternal deaths are on the rise. It's not a risk free thing to carry and give birth. Frankly the attitudes toward women by some on this thread go well beyond abortion to just plain hating women which if that is your stance it still doesn't give you the right to tell other people what to do with their bodies. 

Hey DM, how have you been? Hope all is well with you.

Obviously I can see this is a emotionally charged issue for you, as it is with so many others on both sides. I cant speak for people, but for myself I'm very much against abortion. My family has been in a situation where a lot people would have went the abortion rout. 7 years after my first son was born and well after we decided we were going to be a only child family my wife ended up getting prego after being prescribed a antibiotic from the dentist. That news hit hard for us. We were both getting older and the thought of starting all over with a brand new baby didn't bring us much joy, at first anyway. I'll never forget the day she called me to tell me the news. She was crying, devastated. Because of our belief in Christ, we both knew that we had no right to stop this child from coming into the world. I'm grateful that we never had that discussion. I'm not sure our marriage would have survived if she had made that choice. Before he was born I went under the knife, to make sure we would never again be in that situation.

For me, one of the main reasons I'm so against abortion is because I believe it to be a reflection of the moral downgrade of society.  It deeply saddens me that society needs to end the life of so many millions around the world. I recognize however the incredible amount of suffering it would cause to end the practice. Both for parents and for children born into these horrific situations. So if it were up to me, no I wouldn't outlaw it. But I find myself asking why, in this day and age, is it still such a large practice? Why do so many women use it as a form of birth control? Many of them doing so often several times. I've known women who have had as many as 5. Seems to me we have so many ways to prevent conception that abortion should be a very rare thing. For the poor, these options are usually free. Yet we are seeing millions of abortions every year. Millions! We end the lives of people who are breathing, who's hearts are beating, who even dream when they sleep. With the overwhelming view that it's an obvious right do this, I think we don't spend anywhere the amount of time educating the young on prevention as we should be.

Anyhow I've rambled on long enough. so the last thing I'd like to say is that I don't think its to much to ask for a women to make that choice soon as she knows. To wait till that child could possibly live outside the womb is on par with murder. Please know That I don't take any of this lightly. My thoughts on it have nothing to do with hating or wanting to control women. Its strictly about believing that at a certain point that child has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Now maybe you are right, maybe its none of my business. Seems to me though that in every other case, when we are talking about the end of someone's life, we all agree it's very much our business. And those people who end the life of another are punished. How much more so should it be when we kill the most innocent among us?

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darkmoonlady
57 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Hey DM, how have you been? Hope all is well with you.

Obviously I can see this is a emotionally charged issue for you, as it is with so many others on both sides. I cant speak for people, but for myself I'm very much against abortion. My family has been in a situation where a lot people would have went the abortion rout. 7 years after my first son was born and well after we decided we were going to be a only child family my wife ended up getting prego after being prescribed a antibiotic from the dentist. That news hit hard for us. We were both getting older and the thought of starting all over with a brand new baby didn't bring us much joy, at first anyway. I'll never forget the day she called me to tell me the news. She was crying, devastated. Because of our belief in Christ, we both knew that we had no right to stop this child from coming into the world. I'm grateful that we never had that discussion. I'm not sure our marriage would have survived if she had made that choice. Before he was born I went under the knife, to make sure we would never again be in that situation.

For me, one of the main reasons I'm so against abortion is because I believe it to be a reflection of the moral downgrade of society.  It deeply saddens me that society needs to end the life of so many millions around the world. I recognize however the incredible amount of suffering it would cause to end the practice. Both for parents and for children born into these horrific situations. So if it were up to me, no I wouldn't outlaw it. But I find myself asking why, in this day and age, is it still such a large practice? Why do so many women use it as a form of birth control? Many of them doing so often several times. I've known women who have had as many as 5. Seems to me we have so many ways to prevent conception that abortion should be a very rare thing. For the poor, these options are usually free. Yet we are seeing millions of abortions every year. Millions! We end the lives of people who are breathing, who's hearts are beating, who even dream when they sleep. With the overwhelming view that it's an obvious right do this, I think we don't spend anywhere the amount of time educating the young on prevention as we should be.

Anyhow I've rambled on long enough. so the last thing I'd like to say is that I don't think its to much to ask for a women to make that choice soon as she knows. To wait till that child could possibly live outside the womb is on par with murder. Please know That I don't take any of this lightly. My thoughts on it have nothing to do with hating or wanting to control women. Its strictly about believing that at a certain point that child has a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Now maybe you are right, maybe its none of my business. Seems to me though that in every other case, when we are talking about the end of someone's life, we all agree it's very much our business. And those people who end the life of another are punished. How much more so should it be when we kill the most innocent among us?

I don't think you hate women, you have your moral objections and I understand that, which given what you said happened to you and your wife is understandable and also she had a choice. At the same time you ask why women have more than one, which to me as I said not for me to judge. You have religious reasons, if I may ask from where in your religion? Should a woman have one or more abortions then isn't that between her and God? If its murder or killing an innocent why did got allow her to get pregnant in the first place? Bringing God or religion into it is confusing to me as to when God is responsible, when the woman is or what? A large percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage either very early on or further along and women sometimes dont realize they are pregnant, which is gods will, according to those with religious beliefs, same with fetuses that developed incorrectly with fatal defects. Again those fall under the purview of Gods will according to a believer. It's acceptable for God to end a pregnancy, or for whatever reason burden a woman with a doomed pregnancy and that is acceptable, sad but acceptable. But beyond that, a woman deciding for herself that she isn't ready, or isn't financially stable or mentally stable whatever the reason then that is killing an innocent life? I find that distinction always forces a womans hand whether its God or her choice she's still condemned by certain people because she had sex or had sex birth control failed. So again if its Gods will why does abortion need to exist at all. Why would God put this on women? 

I personally don't have those beliefs. I've read the bible for anything pertaining to abortion and it says if a wife is unfaithful you can cause her to abort. It says if you accidentally cause it you owe the husband some shekels. And that's it. Nothing more. But between the view of women and historical morals it's been interpreted somehow that abortion is wrong when the Bible never says that. 

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, skliss said:

even though every high school has some sort of sex education requirement.

No school can teach responsibility.  

 

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OverSword

For me bottom line is, if you are a male and this is a concern of yours have a discussion with the woman before you two do anything which may result in a pregnancy and ensure you're on the same page and hold similar beliefs.  That is the time when a man has a say so.  Once the woman is pregnant the say so about what course will be followed should entirely belong to the woman, including abortion in the first trimester, IMO.

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Jerry Gallo
4 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

Wow lot to unpack here. 

I'm not an activist I'm a disabled woman whose always known if I got pregnant I'd have to abort. If birth control failed me (as it does thousands of women every day from things as simple as taking antibiotics) it would be mean my life. So take your activism dishonesty and shove it. Its personal. 

Here is my answer to your second paragraph, it's none of my business ( or yours) how many abortions a woman has. It's not my body. I certainly wouldn't want someone else making that decision for me. Having sex is a responsibility but it more than falls on the woman since she has to give birth according to your beliefs. Whether she is ready, whether she wants to, is financially able to, emotionally ready to...for you that doesn't factor in. Ok, then you go down to your local Foster agency and ask them how many kids they have waiting for a family. Ask them how many horrific abuse cases they see every year. Where do you think unwanted kids go? In Georgia half the kids that age out of foster care end up homeless. 

Women don't have abortions at 39 weeks. That's ridiculous. Doesn't happen. Neither does medical infanticide, which is illegal. Women having late term abortions account for 1.3 percent of abortions and they happen for medical reasons. As for the Florida statistics the survey you bring up one doesn't show what the possible answers were. Women don't usually put on the questionnaire my boyfriend hits me and I have no where to go, or I was drugged and raped. And even if they did just decide not to reproduce, it is in the end none of your business. You have no right to control someone else's body. You have weird and incorrect conspiracy theories about what actually happens ( more to the point what does not happen) so your frame of reference is skewed. Dont like abortion, dont have one. Beyond that it has nothing to do with you. 

You sound exactly like an activist, including the escalating anger and pulling comments out of your backside that you can't possibly know or prove. Everything you post here is personal or something I could read on a sign at a pro-choice rally. I've heard everything you have to offer and you have no interest in discussing the prevention of a single unintended pregnancy due to a hard line feminist ideology. You are welcome to feel the way you do. But where I might support you in all exceptions and up to 8-10 weeks as adamantly as you represent yourself, if you want to be militant about every single abortion as if it is noble, if you're going to give young women a wink and a nudge and encourage them to give away their power in the name of liberation, I'm going to veer away from that lack of respect for their health and the life of their unborn when either go poorly.

I used to adamantly agree with you that my opinion on abortion doesn't matter, until I read posts and attitudes like yours. Now I think there needs to be an antithesis to pro-abortion activism, since it's being taken a step too far and none of your excuses logically dissuade me. So, ignore me, marginalize me or insult me, YOU are the reason folks like me exist in places like this. I'll keep asking the questions, if you have no answers, your prerogative.

    

 

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darkmoonlady
19 minutes ago, Jerry Gallo said:

You sound exactly like an activist, including the escalating anger and pulling comments out of your backside that you can't possibly know or prove. Everything you post here is personal or something I could read on a sign at a pro-choice rally. I've heard everything you have to offer and you have no interest in discussing the prevention of a single unintended pregnancy due to a hard line feminist ideology. You are welcome to feel the way you do. But where I might support you in all exceptions and up to 8-10 weeks as adamantly as you represent yourself, if you want to be militant about every single abortion as if it is noble, if you're going to give young women a wink and a nudge and encourage them to give away their power in the name of liberation, I'm going to veer away from that lack of respect for their health and the life of their unborn when either go poorly.

I used to adamantly agree with you that my opinion on abortion doesn't matter, until I read posts and attitudes like yours. Now I think there needs to be an antithesis to pro-abortion activism, since it's being taken a step too far and none of your excuses logically dissuade me. So, ignore me, marginalize me or insult me, YOU are the reason folks like me exist in places like this. I'll keep asking the questions, if you have no answers, your prerogative.

    

 

Pardon? I take it that abortion rights vs. my staying alive aren't enough for you. I'm not an activist. You are, clearly since you look at my situation and then say the above. 

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Jerry Gallo
36 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

Pardon? I take it that abortion rights vs. my staying alive aren't enough for you. I'm not an activist. You are, clearly since you look at my situation and then say the above. 

So, abortion is the ONLY option you have/had to stay alive? Honestly?

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skliss
4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

No school can teach responsibility.  

 

Did I say that? Funny tho, they try to reach the kids about what they consider to be "right" and that shouldn't be their purview either. They should teach consequences along with sex education tho....isn't that what the mechanical babies are for?

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aztek

Pro-choice groups lost in Alabama despite outspending the pro-life side by 100-to-1

The PACs against Amendment 2 attracted about $758,000 in contributions, the disclosures show. The donations came from Planned Parenthood branches, groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union and individuals, and the PACs involved were Alabama For Healthy Families and Alabama Students Voting No On Amendment 2. A separate disclosure shows Alabama For Healthy Families spent $931,000 on ads. One ad from the PAC said the amendment “would open the door to ban abortion, including in cases of rape.”

Meanwhile, a PAC supporting the anti-abortion amendment — Alliance For A Pro-Life Alabama — received only about $8,000, according to FollowTheMoney.org’s data.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/pro-choice-groups-lost-in-alabama-despite-outspending-the-pro-life-side-by-100-to-1-2019-05-28?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo

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darkmoonlady
2 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

So, abortion is the ONLY option you have/had to stay alive? Honestly?

If I got pregnant yes and has been so my entire life. I was born with a birth defect and have multiple arterial veinous malformations in my abdomen, back and left leg, eventually had my left foot amputated because of it and have been in a wheelchair since I was ten. I also had a functioning uterus surrounded by AVMs, which according to numerous doctors told me if I were to get pregnant the pregnancy would kill me. I couldn't go on birth control because of blood clots (had pulmonary embolism and nearly died at 18). So besides condoms or my partner having a vasectomy (which my ex husband had) any sex is a gamble and one I take seriously. If a condom failed and they do because no birth control is 100% I'd have to have an abortion. I also couldn't get my tubes tied or have a hysterectomy (which I'd gladly have my Mom died of ovarian cancer) because no surgeon would take on the risk because of my AVMs. Pregnancy is literally a death sentence and no hyperbole involved. 

Your blood volume goes up 50% during pregnancy plus I'd be at high risk of blood clots, aneurysm (which my Dad died of) and a host of other complications. I'd have loved to have kids but I'd like to stay alive. Being disabled adoption is out. I fostered a teen girl for a year and she's grown and finishing school. So when I say I talk the talk and walk the walk (or wheel it) I damn well mean exactly that. 

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, skliss said:

Did I say that?

Hi Skliss, no you didn't say that,I said that.   I have a different viewpoint than you on a lot of things, and agree on some. I wasn't attacking your position or challenging your argument.  I was making another statement in addition to the topic that schools cannot teach responsibility. They can teach mechanics, or laws, and they can make pregnancy scare videos just like they make car crash scare presentations.  It will not replace a sense of responsibility in my view.  That is my own opinion, I don't claim that it is yours.

When I make a comment, it comes out of my head.  It may be in response to you, but sometimes it is not, it is just what I think.  

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Jerry Gallo
4 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

If I got pregnant yes and has been so my entire life. I was born with a birth defect and have multiple arterial veinous malformations in my abdomen, back and left leg, eventually had my left foot amputated because of it and have been in a wheelchair since I was ten. I also had a functioning uterus surrounded by AVMs, which according to numerous doctors told me if I were to get pregnant the pregnancy would kill me. I couldn't go on birth control because of blood clots (had pulmonary embolism and nearly died at 18). So besides condoms or my partner having a vasectomy (which my ex husband had) any sex is a gamble and one I take seriously. If a condom failed and they do because no birth control is 100% I'd have to have an abortion. I also couldn't get my tubes tied or have a hysterectomy (which I'd gladly have my Mom died of ovarian cancer) because no surgeon would take on the risk because of my AVMs. Pregnancy is literally a death sentence and no hyperbole involved. 

Your blood volume goes up 50% during pregnancy plus I'd be at high risk of blood clots, aneurysm (which my Dad died of) and a host of other complications. I'd have loved to have kids but I'd like to stay alive. Being disabled adoption is out. I fostered a teen girl for a year and she's grown and finishing school. So when I say I talk the talk and walk the walk (or wheel it) I damn well mean exactly that. 

My goodness, I'm so sorry you've had all that to deal with, truly I am. No matter how irritated I make others or they make me, I never like to hear people endure difficulties like yours. I've had a couple very minor issues since birth, didn't find out about either in my late 20's. While not debilitating, yet anyway, doctors were consulted on the risk of passing along worse versions of what I have before starting a family.

Now I mean no disrespect here, but getting pregnant was preventable. I'm not saying sacrificing the ability to enjoy a normal sex life is fair, but when staying alive depends on it, I'd like to think avoiding the risk would be of critical importance. With all those issues, did doctors tell you you'd handle an abortion as well as a woman without the issues you deal with?

You said it yourself, any sex is a gamble if we're being honest. Not only with pregnancy, but STD's as well. That's more or less my point. It's not an attempt to dictate terms to anyone, it's more to get people to respect the risk involved. I've probably sided with your beliefs more than most in the pro-life crowd, I do not take this issue lightly. You've had physical reasons to be vigilant about not getting pregnant. Most women don't, so there is more of a blase attitude about the risks. I personally don't care what a woman does, I just have a hard time feeling sorry for some of them when the "woe is me" starts when they find out they are pregnant, especially the ones who threw caution into the wind. Said another way, they don't respect the outcome ahead of time like you were forced to.

I'm trying to be honest here, explaining why I feel the way I do. I don't see many pro-choice people willing to admit there are some egregious misuses of abortion, I think that's because they fear giving an inch weakens the whole fight overall. For me, it would actually garner more support from people like me, it's the militant insistence there are no limits that bothers me . If that makes me a dirty SOB in your eyes, then that is how it will have to be.  

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Jerry Gallo
24 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Hi Skliss, no you didn't say that,I said that.   I have a different viewpoint than you on a lot of things, and agree on some. I wasn't attacking your position or challenging your argument.  I was making another statement in addition to the topic that schools cannot teach responsibility. They can teach mechanics, or laws, and they can make pregnancy scare videos just like they make car crash scare presentations.  It will not replace a sense of responsibility in my view.  That is my own opinion, I don't claim that it is yours.

When I make a comment, it comes out of my head.  It may be in response to you, but sometimes it is not, it is just what I think.  

There you go! Responsibility! A trait that has faded from this country's fabric over time, not just on this topic. The right has always promoted a notion of individual responsibility and caught holy hell for it from the left. Unsure why it's such a bad thing to expect people to be personally responsible these days, especially when some of us go well out of our way to be responsible for ourselves and accountable to others. It doesn't take much effort either, does it?

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darkmoonlady
15 minutes ago, Jerry Gallo said:

My goodness, I'm so sorry you've had all that to deal with, truly I am. No matter how irritated I make others or they make me, I never like to hear people endure difficulties like yours. I've had a couple very minor issues since birth, didn't find out about either in my late 20's. While not debilitating, yet anyway, doctors were consulted on the risk of passing along worse versions of what I have before starting a family.

Now I mean no disrespect here, but getting pregnant was preventable. I'm not saying sacrificing the ability to enjoy a normal sex life is fair, but when staying alive depends on it, I'd like to think avoiding the risk would be of critical importance. With all those issues, did doctors tell you you'd handle an abortion as well as a woman without the issues you deal with?

You said it yourself, any sex is a gamble if we're being honest. Not only with pregnancy, but STD's as well. That's more or less my point. It's not an attempt to dictate terms to anyone, it's more to get people to respect the risk involved. I've probably sided with your beliefs more than most in the pro-life crowd, I do not take this issue lightly. You've had physical reasons to be vigilant about not getting pregnant. Most women don't, so there is more of a blase attitude about the risks. I personally don't care what a woman does, I just have a hard time feeling sorry for some of them when the "woe is me" starts when they find out they are pregnant, especially the ones who threw caution into the wind. Said another way, they don't respect the outcome ahead of time like you were forced to.

I'm trying to be honest here, explaining why I feel the way I do. I don't see many pro-choice people willing to admit there are some egregious misuses of abortion, I think that's because they fear giving an inch weakens the whole fight overall. For me, it would actually garner more support from people like me, it's the militant insistence there are no limits that bothers me . If that makes me a dirty SOB in your eyes, then that is how it will have to be.  

I didn't say you were a dirty SOB. And thank you for that and listening. My point is and will always be I wouldn't want someone making that decision for me ever, so I am not in any position to decide for someone else. I just cannot. Whatever my feelings are about abortion (which if you think about it not being able to have kids despite wanting them) doesn't mean I know better for someone else's life if they should reproduce or not. Or if they have too many or whatever. Even if I believe one way, my beliefs don't outweigh their choice. I've had a dear friend flat out say to me if I got pregnant and died it's gods will and I should just make peace with it. Well no thank you I'd like to live. I also chose to not live like a nun. I wasn't going to deny who I am or sex with people I was committed to and spend my life celibate. Abortion was viable for me if I needed it according to my doctor's vs dying whatever small risk for terminating was much smaller than definitely dying. But even women who do everything right still get pregnant. Hell my Great Aunt got married, and had three kids in 30 months (wanted kids) and it nearly killed her. She lost all her teeth, wore out her uterus, was dangerously anemic (1940s well before abortion and birth control). It's not easy for women to carry. I can't sit here and say well I need abortion to remain legal and safe so I can live but you other women shouldn't have them. In the end no matter why a woman chooses to terminate her choice has to remain hers and not the states, or churches or anyone it's something I couldn't force or require of another person to make them carry, because if they did that to me I wouldn't live. 

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rashore
23 hours ago, Jerry Gallo said:

It's funny, I read two articles this morning about adoption and both said adoption took a nosedive because the stigma of single motherhood started to fade in the late 60's and early 70's and fewer mothers gave children up for adoption and kept them to raise alone. I tip my cap to those that did, my mother raised me solo from age three, so I appreciate strong independent single moms. At any rate, guess everyone has an opinion. Thanks for the historical input, I was aware of most of what you posted, but there was a morsel or two I wasn't.

In earlier posts, I talked about adult non-cohabiting women versus teens. The trend of unwed mothers is higher today (86%) than in 1974 (74%) - so we agree unwed has always been high, but there has also been a shift in age. In the early 70's, it was a lot of teen and early 20's, probably due to lack of sufficient birth control and perhaps a lack of education. Parents didn't talk about it and schools couldn't in that era. Back then, 66% of abortions were women age 18-24, today 74% are age 20-34. So, there is still an issue or two in need of address, in spite of historical information. With more birth control options, including morning after pill, with more insight, knowledge and empowerment of single mothers, there is still too much reliance on abortion, especially beyond week eight. Too many "repeat offenders" too. I'm all for women progressing from being sent away or being coerced into marriage, but the notion of having a magic eraser to wipe away mistakes that takes the life of a child feels wrong. Doing so beyond the first trimester is abhorrent, yet advocates act like it's no big deal. And while I 100% support the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 that charges perps with crimes against mothers and babies in the womb, I see many pro-choice people as advocates for that law. That's Hypocrisy 101.    

It may be in part that the stigma of single motherhood was fading during that time because the stigma of being a single woman was finally starting to diminish as well. Wasn't till 69 that full on no-fault divorce was legal, and until law was passed in 74 to stop it, banks and creditors could and often would refuse a single woman to open a bank account, have a credit card, take a mortgage or loan if that single woman didn't have a male co-signer to guarantee her. For women that wanted a life without a mans contract/consent, it was rather difficult to do so and had a lot of stigma, let alone trying to do it with children too and not having the socially acceptable reason of widowhood. Of course there have always been spinsters, and confirmed bachelors too. But somehow for a long time it was viewed as odd or sad for a woman to be unwed, but completely normal if a man did so.

And it may be that unwed statistics are higher now than in 74 is because in general there are less people getting married now than in 74. Men and women and everyone in between. We just track women way more than men when it comes to reproduction. Unfortunately, our medical establishment has not bothered to try keeping father data the way it has mother data. Even if a mother chose to not tell father info and he was not there, it could still be tracked as a N/A or D/K rather than nothing at all. But we could garner a whole nother set of data to see how it figures along with the mother tracking.

 

 

 

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preacherman76
17 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

I don't think you hate women, you have your moral objections and I understand that, which given what you said happened to you and your wife is understandable and also she had a choice. At the same time you ask why women have more than one, which to me as I said not for me to judge. You have religious reasons, if I may ask from where in your religion?

Quote

Thank you for these questions. They are good ones, and I more then understand why you asked them. Let me first say that I am not the bible thumper I once was. I have shed many dogmatic beliefs over the last few years. I still have faith in the bible, and I outright believe in my heart many of the thing written in it, as they are just obvious truth, to me. So biblically, two things stand out when it comes to abortion. The first is where God describes knowing us personally, before we ever even got to the womb. The other is when Christ said that it would be better for a person to tie themselves to a large stone, and cast themselves into the sea, then to hurt a little one. Its these two scriptures combined that give me serious pause.

Should a woman have one or more abortions then isn't that between her and God?

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Spiritually speaking, absolutely. It very much is between her and God. I don't know for sure how this works, but I believe God is a God of compassion and understanding. My fear for said women isn't that she will be cast into a lake of fire. I believe, or I should say I have faith in the idea that when we stand before God, for the first time we will see every moment in our lives through the lens of truth. We will fully understand the consequences of our actions in a way we, in this life, cant even conceive. For many of us, if not all of us, we will cast judgment on ourselves. Some may even take a great deal of time to recover from that life review.

Many women spend a lot of time judging themselves for having an abortion while they are still alive right now. How much more so once the veil is completely removed? Now this part truly is none of my business. The reason I bring it up is for the sake of giving people something to consider. Something that if true, could save people from having a great deal of unnecessary suffering. Of course I do fully understand that many don't share the same belief that this is a possible outcome. Like I said though, my hope is that its something to consider.

If its murder or killing an innocent why did got allow her to get pregnant in the first place? Bringing God or religion into it is confusing to me as to when God is responsible, when the woman is or what? A large percentage of pregnancies end in miscarriage either very early on or further along and women sometimes dont realize they are pregnant, which is gods will, according to those with religious beliefs, same with fetuses that developed incorrectly with fatal defects. Again those fall under the purview of Gods will according to a believer. It's acceptable for God to end a pregnancy, or for whatever reason burden a woman with a doomed pregnancy and that is acceptable, sad but acceptable. But beyond that, a woman deciding for herself that she isn't ready, or isn't financially stable or mentally stable whatever the reason then that is killing an innocent life? I find that distinction always forces a womans hand whether its God or her choice she's still condemned by certain people because she had sex or had sex birth control failed. So again if its Gods will why does abortion need to exist at all. Why would God put this on women? 

Quote

I certainly understand this POV. My wife actually became pregnant a few months before we were married. She was about 3 months into the pregnancy when, for whatever reason, the child didn't survive. I'll never forget that phone call either. We were both devastated. I remember trying my best to not condemn God for it. We were very upset and angry towards God over it.  It took some time, but through prayer we came to the conclusion that there are just things that we are not able to understand. I know this sounds like a cop-out, but I had to find peace in trying to understand his ways are higher then our ways. His thoughts are higher then our thoughts. That's how I got through at the time. If it were today I would look at it from a completely different POV. It would take up to much time to go through all that though.

I personally don't have those beliefs. I've read the bible for anything pertaining to abortion and it says if a wife is unfaithful you can cause her to abort. It says if you accidentally cause it you owe the husband some shekels. And that's it. Nothing more. But between the view of women and historical morals it's been interpreted somehow that abortion is wrong when the Bible never says that. 

Really? I don't recall the bible saying anything about being allowed to cause a women to abort. Old test says that if a women is unfaithful, she is to be put to death. Though its been a few years since I've studied on this subject. Could you maybe point to where it says that?

Its true that the bible doesn't spell out specifically whether or not abortion is wrong. But it certainly, especially in the new test, speaks of how loved by God children are. It also is a direct commandment that 'thou shall not kill'.

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darkmoonlady
25 minutes ago, preacherman76 said:

Really? I don't recall the bible saying anything about being allowed to cause a women to abort. Old test says that if a women is unfaithful, she is to be put to death. Though its been a few years since I've studied on this subject. Could you maybe point to where it says that?

Its true that the bible doesn't spell out specifically whether or not abortion is wrong. But it certainly, especially in the new test, speaks of how loved by God children are. It also is a direct commandment that 'thou shall not kill'.

Numbers 5:11

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife

11Then the Lord said to Moses, 12“Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah c of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16“ ‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse d among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

“ ‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”

23“ ‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial e offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.

29“ ‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’ ”

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Jerry Gallo
11 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

I didn't say you were a dirty SOB. And thank you for that and listening. My point is and will always be I wouldn't want someone making that decision for me ever, so I am not in any position to decide for someone else. I just cannot. Whatever my feelings are about abortion (which if you think about it not being able to have kids despite wanting them) doesn't mean I know better for someone else's life if they should reproduce or not. Or if they have too many or whatever. Even if I believe one way, my beliefs don't outweigh their choice. I've had a dear friend flat out say to me if I got pregnant and died it's gods will and I should just make peace with it. Well no thank you I'd like to live. I also chose to not live like a nun. I wasn't going to deny who I am or sex with people I was committed to and spend my life celibate. Abortion was viable for me if I needed it according to my doctor's vs dying whatever small risk for terminating was much smaller than definitely dying. But even women who do everything right still get pregnant. Hell my Great Aunt got married, and had three kids in 30 months (wanted kids) and it nearly killed her. She lost all her teeth, wore out her uterus, was dangerously anemic (1940s well before abortion and birth control). It's not easy for women to carry. I can't sit here and say well I need abortion to remain legal and safe so I can live but you other women shouldn't have them. In the end no matter why a woman chooses to terminate her choice has to remain hers and not the states, or churches or anyone it's something I couldn't force or require of another person to make them carry, because if they did that to me I wouldn't live. 

I know you didn't, just letting you know it's okay if you do. I realize the burden my thoughts carry. ;)

Also, I want to make it clear, I do comprehend your views on abortion. I think sometimes we get caught up in the battle and fail to realize the difference between comprehending someone's view and agreeing or disagreeing with it. Based on that, I feel when we comprehend each other, it becomes less of a fight and more of a conversation. My issue, or flaw, is that I am often too reactive in disagreement. When I see someone adamant and a bit irritated, I tend to take a similar tone. I'm working on it, always working on it. There are a few here not even worth the time, but I don't think you fall into that group.

Two things for you to consider...

1. "Well no thank you I'd like to live." Imagine if babies in the womb could speak those words to us. I don't expect to change your mind, just hope it helps you to comprehend where some of us are coming from on the issue. 

2. The legality of abortion may seem to focus on the pregnant woman, but the truth is, the legality should focus on the doctors performing them. In my opinion, a doctor performing an abortion does not fall under the "a woman can do what she wants with her body" criteria. Many similarities exist in comparing abortion to euthanasia and assisted suicide. The dire medical conditions, the requirement to have a doctor perform the procedure, the debate over what is necessity versus what is not, and whether a request to do something absolves the doctor legally in doing it. The courts aren't 100% in agreement, but for the most part, they have said that a DNR is not the same as an elective request to die. Abortion is less DNR than an elective request. In that spirit, the courts also differ on the Constitutional definition of life, which impacts the Constitutional definition of (causing) death. If the courts are consistent on the two issues, they have to reconcile the two. My opinion, eight weeks would be the rule on when life starts. I feel like that is a reasonable compromise for both sides, but that is not where compromise ends, it's where it begins. Add rape/incest and health issues for both immediately, but with strict criteria beyond first trimester. If the medical condition is truly dire at 39 weeks, it's legal. It doesn't have to be limitless to ensure the dire issues are covered. Also as part of any compromise, health care laws would be adjusted to include birth control at no cost, all methods including morning after pill. Pregnancy tests as well, both home kits and doctor visit types. The purpose is to cover the lions share of the reasons/excuses beyond eight weeks. And I'd consider just about anything that covers men's contribution to the phenomenon. Forced vasectomies is a bit of a slippery slope, while I'd have no issue doing so to a dude that fathers multiple children with multiple women with no intention of taking full responsibility. But, would we also do that with the women who exhibit similar behavior? Toss them in jail, but that inhibits the ability to financially support. Point is, hold the men accountable in every way possible.

As I have said before, my beef with Roe is similar to my beef with Obergefell (gay marriage issue), not necessarily what the law is, but how the law came to be. I think it should be legislated as a Constitutional amendment with clearly defined parameters and exceptions that must be followed in all 50 states or it should be kicked back to the states. As for why I prefer the former, it's twofold. 1. It's more permanent and less susceptible to the constant fighting and use as a political tool. 2. It requires both sides to come to the table and ferret out the abuses the left won't discuss and the strictness the right demands, hopefully ending in compromise that is mostly fair to the majority of circumstances. As for why I prefer the latter, it's probably the most legal Constitutional method to leave this to the states. 

All that said, my views come from a pretty agnostic thought process. There is no intention to dictate actions of anyone, just trying to solve a problem with results of actions that I consider the unborn as the tangent victims beyond eight weeks. I explain all this in as much detail as possible not thinking you will agree, but that you comprehend the logic and know that it's not based on my religious beliefs (zero tolerance) or a desire to punish anyone. I don't think the war on Roe started by Alabama recently is good for anyone, but neither are the laws in NY no matter how much you feel it won't be abused. Human nature says everything does eventually. 

   

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Jerry Gallo
11 hours ago, rashore said:

It may be in part that the stigma of single motherhood was fading during that time because the stigma of being a single woman was finally starting to diminish as well. Wasn't till 69 that full on no-fault divorce was legal, and until law was passed in 74 to stop it, banks and creditors could and often would refuse a single woman to open a bank account, have a credit card, take a mortgage or loan if that single woman didn't have a male co-signer to guarantee her. For women that wanted a life without a mans contract/consent, it was rather difficult to do so and had a lot of stigma, let alone trying to do it with children too and not having the socially acceptable reason of widowhood. Of course there have always been spinsters, and confirmed bachelors too. But somehow for a long time it was viewed as odd or sad for a woman to be unwed, but completely normal if a man did so.

And it may be that unwed statistics are higher now than in 74 is because in general there are less people getting married now than in 74. Men and women and everyone in between. We just track women way more than men when it comes to reproduction. Unfortunately, our medical establishment has not bothered to try keeping father data the way it has mother data. Even if a mother chose to not tell father info and he was not there, it could still be tracked as a N/A or D/K rather than nothing at all. But we could garner a whole nother set of data to see how it figures along with the mother tracking.

 

I'm all for addressing the male side of the issue. My speech to my sons on a regular basis let's them know I would be supremely angry if they ruin their lives by making stupid decisions, but I'd be tenfold more angry about them ruining the life of some young girl, someone's daughter, someone's sister. There are many details about my life that I could tell to show you I get what history got wrong for women. I can fully cooperate and endorse the majority of what is said on the pages of this forum. That said, there is an extreme in any movement and feminism is no different. The task of thinking people is being able to identify and address those extremes, even when it's a movement we may be a part of. It may be false comfort on my part, but I feel I am addressing the extremes in my pro-life movement. I honestly don't see quid pro quo from the pro-choice side. Plus, no matter what I do to address my side, it's never enough to the opposition. So, feels like I am sometimes looked at sideways from everyone. LOL

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