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Scott Creighton

Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber (Question)

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mstower

Another go at the entry for May 6:

Quote

S. 6. Sent off the people, ?chapel, breakfast, went to the works, copied the Hieroglyphics in the Temple of the 2d. Pyramid a young Frenchman came who said that he was Son of the Consul I gave him some Candles ?for the Pyramids & soon after ?when I joined Mr Perring, & Mr. Mash at the S. W. angle of the Great Pyramid, I met his Father, to whom I gave ?an ?invitation to ?my Tents; after some time I sent to them; & found ?the ?Pr—, & ?his ?Son, & the old Dragoman, they ? ? ?, a ?watch, & ? their ? ?, (they had ? ?, ? ? ?.)  Mr Raven returned from the Great Pyramid, and ?soon ?after ?we ?ascended ?fr[om] ?Chamber ?int[o] ?the room above Nelson’s, ?we ?then paid the people off, & Mr Raven, Mr Perring, Mr Mash, & Myself ?came to Cairo, I took a Bath & dined with Mr Brettel, & ? Armenian Effendi who had been educated in England, & who spoke good English.

M.

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Windowpane

" ... Armenian Effendi who had been educated in England, & who spoke good English ... "

 

It wasn't Hekekyan Bey, was it?

He'd been educated in England.

 

 

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mstower
1 minute ago, Windowpane said:

" ... Armenian Effendi who had been educated in England, & who spoke good English ... "

 

It wasn't Hekekyan Bey, was it?

He'd been educated in England.

 

 

Could have been, but I do not find Vyse mentioning him by name.

Hekekyan IIRC took some interest in the pyramid.

M.

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Windowpane
15 minutes ago, mstower said:

Hekekyan IIRC took some interest in the pyramid

As shown here, pgs. 60-61.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
4 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Deflection.

Offer up a plausible explanation as to what prevented Vyse or Raven from observing the quarry marks in LA's chamber during their initial inspection. That's all you have to do - put up a plausible explanation and this will go away.

Let's have it. Whatcha got?

SC

Okay - he was tired and missed the obvious (cf the tissue box mentioned on page one). Or perhaps he was under pressure from the BM to have a “proper” find that brings more prestige to the BM like a mummy or some sexy cartouches they can chisel from the walls. Or he was busy faking them in such a way that modern archaeologists cannot tell the difference between them done 200 years ago and others done 3000+ years ago.

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Windowpane
1 hour ago, mstower said:

Could have been, but I do not find Vyse mentioning him by name.

Hekekyan IIRC took some interest in the pyramid.

 

If it was, then appropriate acknowledgements are due to Scott.

It really would be rather fascinating, I think, if Vyse and Hekekyan Bey had actually met ...  Not that any great exchange of views and opinions appears to have taken place.

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Windowpane said:

If it was, then appropriate acknowledgements are due to Scott.

It really would be rather fascinating, I think, if Vyse and Hekekyan Bey had actually met ...  Not that any great exchange of views and opinions appears to have taken place.

Here is a book by that gentleman (I believe).

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=1dU_AAAAcAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PP4

A Treatise on the Chronology of Siriadic Monuments, Demonstrating that the Egyptian Dynasties of Manetho are Records of Astrogeological Nile Observations which Have Been Continued to the Present Time

He mentions using Colonel Vyse's researches in his own study (page IX) but it is only part of a list.

Edited by Hanslune
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Kenemet
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Windowpane said:

" ... Armenian Effendi who had been educated in England, & who spoke good English ... "

It wasn't Hekekyan Bey, was it?

He'd been educated in England.

I was surprised at the word, "Effendi" but a search inside the books shows that he does use the term several times.  It's an appropriate title for an educated man.

Edited by Kenemet
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cladking
4 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

. Or he was busy faking them in such a way that modern archaeologists cannot tell the difference between them done 200 years ago and others done 3000+ years ago.

Maybe if they performed scientific testing on any of them then they could tell the difference.  

Red? check.

Looks original? check.

They mustta been painted 4700 years ago.  

 

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Hanslune
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, cladking said:

Maybe if they performed scientific testing on any of them then they could tell the difference.  

Red? check.

Looks original? check.

They mustta been painted 4700 years ago.  

 

..........and regardless if it was done if it didn't agree with what SC wanted it to reflect he'd say it mustta been faked.....

Why don't you outline to us the method of testing, how it would be done - you would need a range of test samples from the relieving chambers and from other similar marking at other sites - how many Cladking (they took 450 samples for the 1995 C-14 dating of the old kingdom sites)? Who would do it, how big a sample do you need, (by the way what is the red ochre mixed with - do you know?) who would pay for it, which agency/lab would do and who would get the results?

 

Edited by Hanslune
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Windowpane
7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Here is a book by that gentleman (I believe).

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=1dU_AAAAcAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PP4

A Treatise on the Chronology of Siriadic Monuments, Demonstrating that the Egyptian Dynasties of Manetho are Records of Astrogeological Nile Observations which Have Been Continued to the Present Time

He mentions using Colonel Vyse's researches in his own study (page IX) but it is only part of a list.

Thanks - I had difficulties with that version, so used the Heidelberg one suggested by M. Stower - https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hekekyan1863/0015/image.

Regrettably, the terse reference "Col. Vyse's researches" doesn't really shed too much light on the question of whether or not they'd ever met; whether that putative meeting had taken place on 6th May 1837; and whether Vyse had happened to mention his latest discovery.

Imagine it ... if, during this meeting, Hekekyan had only managed to impress Vyse enough to displace ideas about naming the chambers after members of the English aristocracy, the latest discovery might have been called "Hekekyan Bey's Chamber" ... 

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Scott Creighton

" ? Armenian Effendi"

'robed Armenian Effendi'

SC

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Sir Wearer of Hats

All this talk of “Effendi” and all I’m thinking is “that’s Turkish for Master” and expecting this fella to turn up:

3400B6C1-ABEE-4875-B3B1-FBF7EF077C49.jpeg.50cc9aac9cddc33054c544d50ecb0bb3.jpeg

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mstower
23 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

" ? Armenian Effendi"

'robed Armenian Effendi'

SC

Vyse has more than one style of word-final d and this one is comparable with the one in “good English”.

But Vyse has crossed the earlier ascender, which makes what he wrote look like “roted”.

If this were Hekekyan Bey, “noted Armenian Effendi” would be apt.

Quote

S. 6. Sent off the people, ?chapel, breakfast, went to the works, copied the Hieroglyphics in the Temple of the 2d. Pyramid a young Frenchman came who said that he was Son of the Consul I gave him some Candles ?for the Pyramids & soon after ?when I joined Mr Perring, & Mr. Mash at the S. W. angle of the Great Pyramid, I met his Father, to whom I gave ?an ?invitation to ?my Tents; after some time I sent to them; & found ?the ?Pr—, & ?his ?Son, & the old Dragoman, they ? ? ?, a ?watch, & ? their ? ?, (they had ?loyal ?, ? ? ?.)  Mr Raven returned from the Great Pyramid, and ?soon ?after ?we ?ascended ?fr[om] ?Chamber ?int[o] ?the room above Nelson’s, ?we ?then paid the people off, & Mr Raven, Mr Perring, Mr Mash, & Myself ?came to Cairo, I took a Bath & dined with Mr Brettel, & ?noted Armenian Effendi who had been educated in England, & who spoke good English.

M.

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Scott Creighton

For comparison:

HqEonoJ.jpg

 

I still consider the word to be 'robed'. The one caveat to that is that there does look like a faint stroke through the 'b' ascender so it has to be possible that this is a 't' and not a 'b'. Noted Armenian Effendi suggests he knew who they were so it's odd then that he doesn't give their name whereas 'robed' is more 'neutral'.

But yes - 'noted' IS certainly a reasonable possibility. Such is the difficulty with Vyse's script.

SC

 

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mstower
11 minutes ago, Scott Creighton said:

For comparison:

HqEonoJ.jpg

 

I still consider the word to be 'robed'. The one caveat to that is that there does look like a faint stroke through the 'b' ascender so it has to be possible that this is a 't' and not a 'b'. Noted Armenian Effendi suggests he knew who they were so it's odd then that he doesn't give their name whereas 'robed' is more 'neutral'.

But yes - 'noted' IS certainly a reasonable possibility. Such is the difficulty with Vyse's script.

SC

In either case we are looking at characters which were rushed and not fully completed.  The reading “robed” assumes that Vyse made a further mistake, crossing the ascender.  I go for what assumes fewer mistakes, but I leave it prepended with a question mark.

M.

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Ell

noted

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Scott Creighton
Posted (edited)

Vyse would (occasionaly) write his end 'd' with a great loop that curves up and passes through the letters to the left:

aVIPfXG.jpg

What we may be seeing with the 'robed / noted' word is the loop of the end 'd' passing through the 'b' to the left with a slight lift of the pen resulting in a small gap in the loop of the 'd' (thus giving the appearance of a stroke through the 'b' thereby making it look like a 't').

SC

Edited by Scott Creighton

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Windowpane
2 hours ago, mstower said:

In either case we are looking at characters which were rushed and not fully completed.  The reading “robed” assumes that Vyse made a further mistake, crossing the ascender.  I go for what assumes fewer mistakes, but I leave it prepended with a question mark.

 

 

Would he have worn a djellabah, or robes ... ?  He might have, in that heat, I guess ...

Sketch of Hekekyan.

Hekekyan Effendi.

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Windowpane

Hekekyan's abilities as a translator were clearly of some value to his circle in 1837 (Sec. 27).  (N. 18 has "February 1837"; I was unable to find anything for May 1837.)

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Hanslune
8 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Thanks - I had difficulties with that version, so used the Heidelberg one suggested by M. Stower - https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/hekekyan1863/0015/image.

Regrettably, the terse reference "Col. Vyse's researches" doesn't really shed too much light on the question of whether or not they'd ever met; whether that putative meeting had taken place on 6th May 1837; and whether Vyse had happened to mention his latest discovery.

Imagine it ... if, during this meeting, Hekekyan had only managed to impress Vyse enough to displace ideas about naming the chambers after members of the English aristocracy, the latest discovery might have been called "Hekekyan Bey's Chamber" ... 

Yeah that is why I went looking for it with the hope he might have mentioned Vyse in context and with a much fuller regard for his work - no luck!

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mstower
6 hours ago, Scott Creighton said:

Vyse would (occasionaly) write his end 'd' with a great loop that curves up and passes through the letters to the left:

aVIPfXG.jpg

What we may be seeing with the 'robed / noted' word is the loop of the end 'd' passing through the 'b' to the left with a slight lift of the pen resulting in a small gap in the loop of the 'd' (thus giving the appearance of a stroke through the 'b' thereby making it look like a 't').

SC

Depends on whether “called” is the correct reading here.  The loop may result precisely from his going back to cross the ascender (which wouldn’t account for the d in “good” aforementioned, but such a form could become habitual).

Your text is I think what I would read thus:

Quote

Sent off the people, breakfast, ?sent to the ?People, blew up Stones ?at North front of Pyramid, Mr Perring ?came, ?out, was sent for by Mr Raven, ?found ?with ?Grt ?Wl, ?ente[re]d Nelson’s Chamber, apparently ?like Wellington’s, floored with the ?reverse of the blocks of the one below, ?&c ?&c, paid off the People, ?dined, & bed.

In the present case there is a discontinuity, so yet more open to this reading (going back to cross).  Uncertain/ambiguous, as we often find with Vyse’s writing.

M.

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mstower
6 hours ago, Windowpane said:

 

Would he have worn a djellabah, or robes ... ?  He might have, in that heat, I guess ...

Sketch of Hekekyan.

Hekekyan Effendi.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Sketch-of-fieldwork-in-progress-Hekekyan-standing-center-was-always-differentiated-by_fig2_327985865

“Hekekyan, standing center, was always differentiated by his suit and hat . . .”

M.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

As a professional interpreter of scribbles, it looks more consistent with an “R” rather than a “N” to me.

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