LightAngel Posted July 24, 2019 Author #76 Share Posted July 24, 2019 I personally don't want to terminate anybody. I think we should create a few simple rules instead....... just to create some balance. If you guys want to terminate humanity, then please remember that you are also humans! 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 24, 2019 #77 Share Posted July 24, 2019 On 26/05/2019 at 12:30 PM, LightAngel said: All life is sacred, or no life is sacred. It is only the human race that discusses the rights and the wrongs, the good and the bad, the moral and the immoral - the just an the unjust. It is the history of humankind that has tried to make things black and white, trying to conjure up order out of chaos, trying to invent rules where there aren't any. The dynamic balance of nature is something that we are all subjugated to, no matter how much the environmentalists are so "worried about the planet". If there is anything where the concern really is - it is for the future of the "human race", not the planet. Nature has this wonderful way of balancing itself out - something dies in order for something else to live, something gains advantage over another thing - but all of this is not permanent - what is up will be down and what is down will be up. Humans have choices that most other animals don't - and like any other thing - when given a choice - things can go either way. Give a man a hammer - and he will build a house. Give another man a hammer - and he'll smack the first one over the head with it. Don't give a man a hammer at all? Yes, that’s an option too. However, who has the authority, and I mean - really has authority to bestow or withhold man's freedoms to him or from him, respectively? It is not man that has that authority. There is one "intermediate agent of balance" that equalizes all - and that is nature. However, it is only man that has the audacity and arrogance to raise himself above nature and think that he can do better, that there is a degree of authority over nature that he has that is higher than that of any other species. But still, in this capacity also - he is natural. All that man has - is more options - but in the whole of nature he is of no more worth than the single bacterium on a speck of dust. People and societies do not dictate what morality is. They are arrogant enough to think that they do. But, the universe or God, does not conform to human will. It is our job to realise what the `natural order of things` is so to speak and for us to fit in with it. A further challenge for someone taking the religious morality route is removing societal influences from it. God created the universe for us to enjoy, morality is enjoying it responsibly, immorality is enjoying it irresponsibly or non-indulgence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 24, 2019 #78 Share Posted July 24, 2019 9 hours ago, LightAngel said: If you guys want to terminate humanity, then please remember that you are also humans! I'm okay with that. I don't have much to live for and probably not many years left anyway. I'll be lucky to make it to 60. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joc Posted July 25, 2019 #79 Share Posted July 25, 2019 14 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: People and societies do not dictate what morality is. They are arrogant enough to think that they do. But, the universe or God, does not conform to human will. It is our job to realise what the `natural order of things` is so to speak and for us to fit in with it. A further challenge for someone taking the religious morality route is removing societal influences from it. God created the universe for us to enjoy, morality is enjoying it responsibly, immorality is enjoying it irresponsibly or non-indulgence. Hmmm...people and societies are arrogant...but not you...because you know all the answers right? 1 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 25, 2019 #80 Share Posted July 25, 2019 16 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: People and societies do not dictate what morality is. They are arrogant enough to think that they do. But, the universe or God, does not conform to human will. It is our job to realise what the `natural order of things` is so to speak and for us to fit in with it. A further challenge for someone taking the religious morality route is removing societal influences from it. God created the universe for us to enjoy, morality is enjoying it responsibly, immorality is enjoying it irresponsibly or non-indulgence. Get off the internet then. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 25, 2019 #81 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Rlyeh said: Get off the internet then. I believe in freedom, and as much freedom as humanly possible. If morality exists (and I believe it does) then it must be moral truth independent of what a society or its people think. Therefore neither a society or its members should be trying to impose their version of morality onto people. The only rules of society that should exist (whether legal or cultural) should simply be to prevent those who cannot behave responsibly with freedom from harming others. When it comes to what is actually morality then mankind does not dictate that. The universe or God does. Why exactly is wealth, success, and having power over others, immoral? People lacking these things claim they are due to narcissistic injury. They do not dictate morality and have no right to impose their distorted version of it onto other people just to protect their egos. The universe or God dictates what morality is, not people. It is for all people to `do as thou wilt` without causing harm to others. We are supposed to enjoy all of the freedoms the universe or God have provided us with. Not restrict them to preserve the egos of other people. We are supposed to enjoy material objects and possessions, we are supposed to enjoy wealth and success, and we are supposed to enjoy power and status. Thats why they are all enjoyable. Those who deny themselves put themselves at odds with the natural order of things. They are living lives at odds with what the universe or God intends. When it comes to morality as dictated by the universe or God then the more moral someone is the greater their tendency to drift upwards in life because they are not at odds with the natural order of things. The most moral people in life are the rich and ruling classes. The complete opposite of what most working class people think! (hence, another reason why they struggle to get anyway). Edited July 25, 2019 by RabidMongoose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 25, 2019 #82 Share Posted July 25, 2019 46 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said: The universe or God dictates what morality is, not people. Does it follow that anything that goes against "natural order" is immoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 25, 2019 #83 Share Posted July 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Does it follow that anything that goes against "natural order" is immoral? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 25, 2019 #84 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Just now, RabidMongoose said: Yes Is medical science immoral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 25, 2019 #85 Share Posted July 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Is medical science immoral? Does it violate freedom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 25, 2019 #86 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Just now, RabidMongoose said: Does it violate freedom? Freedom has what to do with nature and natural order? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 25, 2019 #87 Share Posted July 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: Freedom has what to do with nature and natural order? A lack of freedom can stop us aligning ourselves with the natural order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 25, 2019 #88 Share Posted July 25, 2019 38 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said: A lack of freedom can stop us aligning ourselves with the natural order. Freedom can allow us to oppose natural order. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 25, 2019 #89 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Why do I get the feeling that someone in the thread is a self-righteous hedonist. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted July 25, 2019 #90 Share Posted July 25, 2019 It's quite unreasonable to continue to see us as a threat to nature. We are a product of nature. We are top predator. This is how things work. If it wasn't ur it might have been Denisovians or Neanderthals, but it was pretty much a given. We are the first species to have a conscience. T Rex would have sent many species we may never know about extinct, they didn't care but had un unrivaled reign over the planet, as did most species who had a run as top predator. Nature with continental drift tore continents apart, volcanoes and methane have indiscriminately wiped out plants and animals alike. Anthropomorphisising nature is pointless. We are the first species to be aware of species going extinct and helping them survive. We are the first species to actively replant forrests that we removed, no Suaropod did that, Ice Ages wiped out entire species and as Darwin noted the Ichneumonidae live by particularly brutal and grotesque methods. Nature doesn't care. It just does what it does. If we don't work with it, the species will suffer terrible consequences. Who do we blame for Venus and that case of global warming? It happens without life at all. This planet will wipe out life on it or harbour it. Learning about it is what we need to do. Not treat it like an entity. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted July 25, 2019 #91 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Life is something a lot of people--with the sincerest of intentions--wax sanctimonious about. I suppose I cast a jaundiced eye at the idea because for so many who entertain it, all life is sacred--except when it's in the womb, and inconvenient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LightAngel Posted July 25, 2019 Author #92 Share Posted July 25, 2019 3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: The most moral people in life are the rich I’m sorry, but you are very wrong. Moral/immoral people can be found in all classes, but you obviously never been a part of the rich classes! You can't generalize about people the way you do - I think you do it because you have something to prove, at least for yourself, and you think getting very rich will solve all your problems - but it won't. It's true that we all should do whatever makes us happy, but you have to remember that we all are different, and it will be very different what will make us happy. Not everybody wants or need power over others - and some people prefer a bike instead of a car etc. As I said before…… yes, we all need food on the table and a home, etc. but it's very important to follow your passion if you want to have a life that is connected with the true you. So that's where my focus is. But again.... Each to their own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 25, 2019 #93 Share Posted July 25, 2019 Apparently RM has a strong dislike for the poor. Perhaps seeing them as less than human. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted July 25, 2019 #94 Share Posted July 25, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, XenoFish said: Why do I get the feeling that someone in the thread is a self-righteous hedonist. Because someone ........ (edit) I shouldn't have said that. ^. So I deleted most of it. God wants me to have "power over others". but he expects me to be nice about it. I think. Edited July 25, 2019 by lightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted July 25, 2019 #95 Share Posted July 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Hammerclaw said: Life is something a lot of people--with the sincerest of intentions--wax sanctimonious about. I suppose I cast a jaundiced eye at the idea because for so many who entertain it, all life is sacred--except when it's in the womb, and inconvenient. Or when it is food, don't forget our food is alive at some point before we eat it, unless our source is soley General Mills or Kraft, then it is more chemical than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted July 25, 2019 #96 Share Posted July 25, 2019 10 hours ago, psyche101 said: It's quite unreasonable to continue to see us as a threat to nature. We are a product of nature. We are top predator. This is how things work. If it wasn't ur it might have been Denisovians or Neanderthals, but it was pretty much a given. We are the first species to have a conscience. T Rex would have sent many species we may never know about extinct, they didn't care but had un unrivaled reign over the planet, as did most species who had a run as top predator. Nature with continental drift tore continents apart, volcanoes and methane have indiscriminately wiped out plants and animals alike. Anthropomorphisising nature is pointless. We are the first species to be aware of species going extinct and helping them survive. We are the first species to actively replant forrests that we removed, no Suaropod did that, Ice Ages wiped out entire species and as Darwin noted the Ichneumonidae live by particularly brutal and grotesque methods. Nature doesn't care. It just does what it does. If we don't work with it, the species will suffer terrible consequences. Who do we blame for Venus and that case of global warming? It happens without life at all. This planet will wipe out life on it or harbour it. Learning about it is what we need to do. Not treat it like an entity. ...not to be too disagreeable psyche, but we are also the first species to introduce plastic molecules to much of the earth's oceans (not good).. And we remove Much more forest than we plant? We have overfished the oceans ...And caused the extinction of far more species than any other species ever did? I wholeheartedly agree with your point that .. If we don't work with nature we will suffer terrible consequences. And so will much of the rest of life on earth ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyche101 Posted July 26, 2019 #97 Share Posted July 26, 2019 5 hours ago, lightly said: ...not to be too disagreeable psyche, but we are also the first species to introduce plastic molecules to much of the earth's oceans (not good).. Not good but as I say, we are the first species to recognise damage we have done and taken steps to clean up after ourselves. And nature is taking a hand in that too. The emergence of the Ideonella sakaiensis is the first plastic eating bacteria. The planet is charging on regardless and adapting. It doesn't care. Quote And we remove Much more forest than we plant? It changed location. There's less trees in the tropics but more overall. https://psmag.com/environment/the-planet-now-has-more-trees-than-it-did-35-years-ago Quote We have overfished the oceans ...And caused the extinction of far more species than any other species ever did? How many species did dinosaurs eat into extinction? More than 90 percent of all organisms that have ever lived on Earth are extinct. A great many fell to natural causes, climate change, asteroids, volcanoes etc. Like I mentioned, who do we blame for the global warming on Venus. Quote I wholeheartedly agree with your point that .. If we don't work with nature we will suffer terrible consequences. Its in our best interests to learn to work with nature. People treating it like an entity or something are just ignorant. Nature is as relentless and cold hearted as any human that everived. Quote And so will much of the rest of life on earth ? Not what we see in places like pripiyat. Our mark will last longer on the moon than on earth. Nature just rolls on and does what it does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted July 26, 2019 #98 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Psyche, all I can say to all of that is when I was young the area where I live in (northern Michigan) was Full of all sorts of animal life...and now the woods are quiet and I hardly ever see an animal. (other than an occasional deer) On a sunny summer morning the air would be FULL of bird songs...and they were seen everywhere ! I'm talking Thousands !! Now there is a peep here and there. There were whiporwills singing at night, now we hear none. There were herons and Eagles on the lake I lived on...now there isn't. There were all sorts of animals Everywhere....now there isn't. Out in the desert where we have been spending winters lately, and two winters 40 years ago, there were lots of coyotes , now, hardy any. No dinosaurs sighted 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted July 26, 2019 #99 Share Posted July 26, 2019 (edited) On 25/07/2019 at 12:34 PM, XenoFish said: Apparently RM has a strong dislike for the poor. Perhaps seeing them as less than human. What I did was point out to people that their moral compass is dictated to them by the society they live in. The cultures which arise in society often promote a self-serving morality. Sometimes this is to promote the interests of the majority, sometimes its to promote the interests of a minority. The poor often promote a self-serving morality where they see the wealthy as greedy, corrupt, and self-centred. They also go neurotic when their version of morality is questioned. To get down to what is actually moral truth means we have to free ourselves of the societal and culture influences shaping what people see as good and evil. Instead we have to uncover what is universal or God morality. I will simply refer to it as `the natural order of things` so as not to turn this into a religious debate. The natural order of things favours some people while it holds others back. Our job is to align ourselves as much as possible with the natural order of things: 1. Materialism: Those who lack wealth often promote ideals which say materialism is immoral. There is no legitimate argument that can be made for materialism being against the natural order of things. Objects bring pleasure and enjoyment, they do not cause corruption. Therefore we are supposed to enjoy buying and owning things. Therefore materialistic people are morally superior to those who dont indulge. 2. Wealth: The poor often portray those who earn high wages or who own businesses as being corrupt, greedy, and self-centred. Wealth is not against the natural order of things. The greater your gift towards society in terms of skilled work, or the production of products and services, the greater your reward back. This is because a species is more successful in our universe if its members function properly as a society. Therefore our society has set itself up to be compliant with the natural order of things. Therefore the wealthy are morally superior to the poor. 3. Upper Classes: Good relationship skills, intelligence, hard work, behavioural control, good risk evaluation, and excelling at something all result in a person drifting upwards in life. Those who lack them drift downwards. Again, the natural order of things in our universe means those societies which fail to capitalise on their decent citizens are less likely to survive and prosper. The gifted are morally superior to the nothing remarkable and capitalist societies which capitalise on them are morally superior to socialist ones. 4. Freedom: Giving people total freedom is not against the natural order of things. In practice all societies are immoral to some extent as they have to cap freedom due to members who cannot behave responsibly with it. But restrictions to freedom should be kept to the minimum. People should have free speech, the media should be free, people shouldn't have their opinions policed, people should be free of cultures promoting self-serving versions of morality. Everyone needs to be allowed to be as innovative, and creative, and as pleasure seeking as possible. Ultimately once self-serving moralities are removed the members are more aligned with the natural order of things benefitting that society. Currently the USA excels at materialism, wealth, and does good at keeping people out of the middle and upper classes who shouldn't be there. It still has freedom although we see with Trump the political left are trying their hardest to erode it away. What is the result of the USA being the most aligned nation to the natural order of things? The universe/God has rewarded it by making it the greatest nation on Earth. There will no doubt be plenty of poor people who totally disagree with everything I just wrote above. But, its them who are at the bottom end of society. So while they might not like the fact that its them who have everything backwards, it sadly is. They are at odds with the natural order of things so struggle to get anywhere in life. The higher someone up is in society, the wealthier they are, the more confident they are in doing what they want to do, and the more they enjoy the material pleasures of life, the more morally superior they are. I missed power off the list but power is also not immoral. The universe/God rewards those most aligned with the natural order of things. In essence, all of the above is systems thinking. Organising the internal environment that is our civilization correctly, so that it is aligned with its external environment properly. Edited July 26, 2019 by RabidMongoose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 26, 2019 #100 Share Posted July 26, 2019 Whatever let's you sleep at night RM. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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