Support for us who are debilitated

[Musicmatters]

I suffer from a severe mental disorder called OCD. And as many of you may already know, many people with ocd and other mental illnesses suffer from strange and debilitating anomalistic experiences like strange coincidences and synchronicities that we can't explain. (Normal people deal with them too, but they're more severe in mental illness sufferers) 

The experiences of these events feel telepathic and psychic like, or like we're manifesting it with our thoughts. For us with illnesses like OCD, they scare us and cause depression, distress, and anger. Many of us are fighting to be skeptic and rational thinkers when it comes to things like the paranormal, but these experiences keep happening and they're driving us insane.

What we go through is what psychologists call magical thinking, and we want to accept that and move on, but our experiences are so strange and debilitating that instead of moving on, our ocd progresses into a form of ocd called "ocd with psychotic features or ocd with poor insight"

Our ocd is so bad that we're on the same level in suffering as schizophrenics.

*I know this is true because of my own suffering and reading about the severe suffering of other OCD sufferers.*

During my research I found out that schizotypal and schizophrenia sufferers also go through these synchronistic/psychic like experiences.

And many theories have been brought forth like too much dopamine causing overactive pattern recognition, among other explanations. But the experiences happen so much and feel so real that the explanations don't add up and im left in severe mental pain.

Here's a link to the theory that dopamine causes overactive pattern recognition in mental illnesses like schizophrenia:

https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/en/publications/from-realworld-events-to-psychosis(699417f3-841e-4b2c-aa62-79fef843c3d5)/export.html

After searching and searching for more rational explanations, I realized that with these type of things it will be impossible to find a definite answer to.

So after awhile I realized that the best thing that could help me was by finding a place of like minded people who also go through these things as well so we can share similar experiences and find peace.

Before this forum my favorite ocd forum was "stuck in a door" (which is nolonger working) because it had many posts of people going through these experiences. And it really helped me out alot and helped me stay strong without worrying about finding an answer.

I'm creating this thread so that people who suffer from these experiences can have a place to to find relief by reading other people's experiences and to share their own experiences to help others.

I feel like this is one of the most debilitating things an ocd or any mentally ill person can go through. I say that because so many cultures around the world accept the things we go through as already true without trying to find other natural explanations first.

But many of us mentally ill people (despite our experiences) are fighting to be rational, critical thinkers and scientific minded, but because of so many people who believe in this stuff without investigation, it makes it painful for us, because it's hard to find rational dialogue about our experiences.

Many of us want to find a place where others share our experiences and a place where scientific minded people will try to give rational explanations to what we go through.

For many ocd issues the common advice is: accept it and walk away.
But there are certain things that are just too difficult to accept and walk away. To walk away from some things, first we need to know we're not along to give us strength. And this is one of those things.

And I hope this thread can be that place for those of us who are contemplating suicide because of these experiences.

Personally I suffer from many strange anomalistic synchronicity or psychic experiences. I will explain one of them below. Alot of times I feel horrible and like the only way out is suicide. So I look forward to reading other comments regarding these experiences to give me some type of peace.

Here's one of my regular experiences:

A scary intrusive thought hits me, and  then my mind suddenly thinks that the random world "Bob" will be said to confirm that it's true. For some strange reason I can sense Bob being said.  It's like the word Bob will be a sign of confirmation. Then in a split second the word Bob is actually said and I freak out and panic, because these strange things are not supposed to happen. This happens to me multiple times a day. And it's not just words, it other specific sounds and events.

I fight to be rational but It gets so bad that I feel that something supernatural is causing it to happen to destroy my life. And I have to immediately go to google to search for rational answers to get my rationality back.

It all happens in either a split second, or a 5 second window. First the intrusive thought  then the intrusive thought of a sudden word or sound or the thought of something else happening to confirm it as a sign happens right after thinking it. Then the things I saw as a sign actually happens. It never fails.

Sometimes these signs will seem to be caused by my next action, for example: sometimes there is a strong intrusive thought of something bad or good happening and then a feeling that if I turn left or right to pick up something for example, then the specific noise will happen that will confirm the good or bad thought as true. Sometimes the noises feel like they're just waiting for your next action to synchronize it with the sound you're thinking of, so that the universe can show you that it all is real, and that it's goal is to hurt you. It feels as if you're manifesting it into reality.

Here's an interesting example story:

When me and my ex girlfriend were together we we're texting back and forth while she was at work. (We met online, she lived overseas, and we had never met in person) Suddenly while we're texting, she stops because she gets too busycat work. During this time I take a break myself and I go in the kitchen to get something to eat. So I can take a break with her. I left my phone on the bed. I leave for 2 or 3 hours. While I'm gone, it hits me that she's obviously gonna text me back before I get back into the room giving that I will be gone for so long. The longer I stay gone I start to hope that she has already texted me back. But then a scary ocd intrusive thought hits and says that she hasn't texted me back yet, but that she will do it as soon as I get back settled into my room, and that that will prove that we're all connected or something or that there's a psychic or law of attraction type thing happening with all of us and it will prove that a supernatural force is controlling everything.

After this intrusive thought I'm hoping that she has already texted me to prove this ocd type thought wrong.

But unfortunately when I get back into the room everything happened as I thought it. But with a horrible twist:

I entered my room. My phone was sitting on my bed on the charger. At this point I didn't know if I got a text from her or not.  I was afraid to check it because I had a strong feeling that OCD was right and that she hadn't yet texted me back. A minute had gone by without me checking and I was really anxious.

I think I then checked it and confirmed that there was no text and found myself even more anxious because the OCD thought was beginning to manifest.

While severely anxious I put my phone down on my bed, and opened my dresser in my room and then while looking through my dresser this strong intrusive thought and feeling hits me that my girlfriend is gonna die and that when I turn left to reach for the item i was looking for, she will text me in that exact moment to confirm that it's true. And I pause for a moment in fear, and panic, and anger, and then after waiting for a good minute I try to challenge the OCD by angerly turning left and getting the item, and just like the OCD told me, she texted me! How in the hell does this stuff happen!? Right on cue as if it was destined! The whole time deep down inside from the moment the intrusive thought hit me while I was in the kitchen, I felt like the thought was correct, and that she wasn't gonna text me until I got into my room and settled in for at least 3-5 minutes.

Those moments happen alot faster and more consistant than the example above, but I just thought that was an important story to show the other ways it can manifest.

As I mentioned briefly before that story, it also happens with good positive thoughts. For example: You have a good positive thought about something in your life and then the OCD instrusively says that you're gonna hear something that's gonna confirm it as true, and that it will mean that something supernatural exists. And just as OCD predicted, the sound that it intrusively put into your mind is actually heard seconds later and in that moment you feel that that positive thought is tainted because you don't won't to believe something supernatural is controlling everything. It happens so often that It feels like a evil force is doing this to mess with you so you can't enjoy anything in life. It hits you so hard that you just break down and cry sometimes. It causes fits of rage and anger because you know this shouldn't be happening this often.

It's not just with sounds in the environment and words from people. But it's also with numbers on clocks and any other thing you can imagine. But it's just more constant with words and sounds from people and inanimate objects. I.e. telphone ringing, car horns, heating and air conditioning coming on and going off and radios and TV's. Etc. 

I tried to find rational explanations for these things like the subconscious, intuition, confirmation bias, or just having psychotic breaks from the severe OCD. And in the past I started to feel better with these explanations, but then I realized that it was happening so much that non of the explanations added up anymore,  and i realized it's not delusion, or any other explanation, but that it was actually happening.

A long time ago I read on another ocd forum someone explaining this experience as "automatic coincidence"

And that's the perfect explanation, it feels automatic as if the synchronicity was destined to happen in the sequence.

Or like you're manifesting it into reality. If there is a rational explanation then the only one at this point would be the one by psychologist Kirby Surprise who says that we control 3 to 6 percent of our environment and the other one being quantum entanglement which says that our minds are naturally connected through quatum mechanics.

Here's two YouTube videos of Kirby Surprise explaining his theory of synchronicity:

(Part 1): https://youtu.be/gwBluKDTnl0

       
(Part 2): https://youtu.be/9T-PRlmoIFY

Here's a rational perspective on quantum entanglement and psychic experiences:

https://www.yourtango.com/2018310374/what-quantum-entanglement-and-how-it-explains-why-some-people-are-psychic

And here's a link to a scientific study that says that we unconsciously react to events up to 10 seconds before they happen. And it’s called “Predictive Anticipatory Activity”

https://www.dailygrail.com/2014/03/scientific-research-suggests-we-unconsciously-react-to-events-up-to-10-seconds-before-they-happen/

Many people experience these type of things with deja Vu, but I don't experience it that way, (or at least not that often) I just usually get a strong intrusive psychic sense of a word or sound from someone that I didn't choose to think of, and someone says it a second or 5 seconds later.

With these experiences I've been on the verge of suicide and getting closer and closer everyday because of the severe mental pain they cause.

The only reason I'm still alive is because of well known paranormal skeptics that I look up to like James Randi, Michael Shermer, Kirby Surprise, and Susan Blackmore among  many others.

(James Randi's rational explanation for synchronicity/Psychic experiences): 
https://youtu.be/xhx2T-ul3FE

(One of Susan Blackmore's discussions about the existence of the paranormal): 
https://youtu.be/8pKcN2eTyIw

In an effort to better understand these experiences and provoke rational discussion I will also like to add that people who do drugs like weed and psychedelics also experience these type of things often. So is there a correlation with a brain suffering from mental illness and a brain that's high on drugs? From my research on drug users who have these experiences, my verdict is that there is and I suggest that we study these people.

What ever is in those drugs that's causing their brains to experience these things must be the same thing that's in the brain of a person with a mental illness.

Here's one of those posts by a drug user experiening this. It's from a marijuana support forum: https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/telepathy-psychic-abilities-whilst-stoned-d.283254/

Ironically after I calm down from these OCD/synchronicity attacks and I see a little rationality, I find myself facinated by all these experiences, because I wonder how is it possible for a simple brain to do all of these things!

If anybody else sufferers from these things please share and give me some type of peace that other people are in this fight with me.

My goal with this post is to find other people who also dealing with these experiences, so we can look at the rational explanations I provided, and have rational discussions regarding what most likely is happening here so we can promote a more peaceful mind in sufferers. I look forward to hearing from many of you.

IF THIS POST WAS TOO LONG TOO READ THEN HERES THE SHORT SUMMARY:

 I'm Debilitated and sometimes suicidal because of anomalistic experiences like synchronicity and psychic phenomenon and looking for support, and a rational discussion based off the scientific sources I provided. But I will like to add that although my rational side has been weakend by my illness, I'm still a rational thinker at heart, so I expect rational discussion here based on the sources I provided, thanks. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Musicmatters

[XenoFish]

Psychic abilities do not exist. 

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Musicmatters said:

I suffer from a severe mental disorder called OCD. And as many of you may already know, many people with ocd and other mental illnesses suffer from strange and debilitating anomalistic experiences like strange coincidences and synchronicities that we can't explain. (Normal people deal with them too, but they're more severe in mental illness sufferers) 

It's only debilitating because you let it be, and it's not that severe. 

[Musicmatters]

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Psychic abilities do not exist. 

Thank you for your reply. And I hope you're right, that's why i included rational sources in my post so we people who have anomalistic experiences can find a more rational explanation, and have a rational discussion to figure out what exactly is going on. Thank you for your reply though. What do you think of the sources I included particularly the ones for Dr. Kirby surprise. What do you think of his theory? It's very interesting. Keep in touch. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by Musicmatters

[Musicmatters]

13 hours ago, Piney said:

It's only debilitating because you let it be, and it's not that severe. 

Thanks for your reply. Are you saying it's not severe for you? Because it's definitely severe for me. 

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Musicmatters said:

Thanks for your reply. Are you saying it's not severe for you? Because it's definitely severe for me. 

Not for me. I was born a crippled, unwanted,  sickly, drug addicted, autistic with no motor skills preemie and I let nothing stop me or hinder me. 

I exceeded in everything I wanted to and conquered it all.  

[XenoFish]

Synchronicity is nothing more than a fancy way of saying confirmation bias. 

[spartan max2]

52 minutes ago, Musicmatters said:

While severely anxious I put my phone down on my bed, and opened my dresser in my room and then while looking through my dresser this strong intrusive thought and feeling hits me that my girlfriend is gonna die and that when I turn left to reach for the item i was looking for, she will text me in that exact moment to confirm that it's true. And I pause for a moment in fear, and panic, and anger, and then after waiting for a good minute I try to challenge the OCD by angerly turning left and getting the item, and just like the OCD told me, she texted me! How in the hell does this stuff happen!? Right on cue as if it was destined! The whole time deep down inside from the moment the intrusive thought hit me while I was in the kitchen, I felt like the thought was correct, and that she wasn't gonna text me until I got into my room and settled in for at least 3-5 minutes.

Wait, so did she die when she texted you?

Just asking because if she didn't then wouldn't that show that your intrusive OCD thought was indeed random and irrational. Not supernatural ?

 

Like she was suppose to die the moment that text came in right?

Because her just texting you when you felt she would is pretty normal. Happens to me all the time. Humans have pretty consistent habits so we subconsciously remember when things are likely to happen. Like if she always text after work or a shower or whatever. Your brain picks up on that pattern and then you get that gut feeling because the brain knows from all the past data.

Edited May 30, 2019 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

I also want to put a plug in for public awareness lol.

OCD is a heavy hitter. People mostly misunderstand it and joke about having OCD, but the way people picture it is not accurate (it's not just "wanting a picture to be straight"). It involves extremely strong intrusive thoughts and impulses. And the feeling that not acting on these thoughts or impulses with cause doom or some other outcome. 

Typically , obivously it's not identical  for everyone 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by spartan max2

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

OCD is a heavy hitter. People mostly misunderstand it and joke about having OCD, but the way people picture it is not accurate. It involves extremely strong intrusive thoughts and impulses. And the feeling that not acting on these thoughts or impulses with cause doom or some other outcome. 

But we both have it via the autism.

It's just made me a perfectionist who has to check my front door and stove 4 times before leaving. 

[spartan max2]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

But we both have it via the autism.

It's just made me a perfectionist who has to check my front door and stove 4 times before leaving. 

I have had to watch it as I get older lol. Girlfriend has been getting angry at me because we will be about to walk in a building and I will have to run to the car to make sure it's locked for the 3rd time lol.

I just want to make sure people don't minamize OPs struggles because OCD can get really sever for some people. 

Edited May 30, 2019 by spartan max2

[Piney]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I have had to watch it as I get older lol. Girlfriend has been getting angry at me because we will be about to walk in a building and I will have to run to the car to make sure it's locked for the 3rd time lol.

And my sister wants to kill me right now because I have to be the one to house clean and wash dishes. 

[XenoFish]

Perfectionism is it's own madness.

[+Desertrat56]

15 minutes ago, Piney said:

And my sister wants to kill me right now because I have to be the one to house clean and wash dishes. 

Yeah, my daughter tells people she doesn't do dishes because I tell her she doesn't do them right.   I don't remember ever saying that but people believe her.  It is funny and not funny.  In our family OCD is common and we each have our area that we can't let go, but we function.  My middle grandson has the worst case because of cognitive issues and he has been diagnosed with autism but I think it is not accurate.  He is OCD and suffers from high anxiety that presents itself as an inability to control himself.  Something my brother still struggles with and his cognitive issues are the same as my grandson's.  But he had to figure out how to function with no help from anyone as the 60's did not acknowledge someone might need help.  If the anxiety is alleviated my grandson can function like any normal 8 year old and luckily he has a therapist who is teaching him how to alleviate the anxiety himself.  My opinion is that his mother's extreme anxiety has transferred to him, but the OCD does create anxiety that some people cannot understand.  But anyone in my family does understand, maybe it is genetic.

@Musicmatters Since you know the intrusive thought take you off track and cause the anxiety, figure out a way to derail them.  What you describe is not something I can understand, but I do get intrusive thoughts occasionally and they feel like they are coming from someone or something else so I ignore them.  It is startling but I can never get a frame of reference to the words so I just have to continue on with what I was doing before the intrusion.  It has been anything from "hello" to "You did this!" but the voice is not familiar and the context is lost on me so I have to let it go.  It sounds to me like you are messing with your self mentally.  So next time the intrusive thought says "when you turn left this will happen" turn right and see how it goes.

[XenoFish]

39 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

(it's not just "wanting a picture to be straight")

I've done this. In a restaurant and my doctors office. I've also been caught rotating cans the right way in the grocery store. 

[+Desertrat56]

7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I've done this. In a restaurant and my doctors office. I've also been caught rotating cans the right way in the grocery store. 

LOL!  I can relate to that.  My friend fancied herself a decorator and I sat on her couch one afternoon and moved this bowl she had on the coffee table to the center, she moved it back cockeyed the way she wanted it and I had to fight to keep from putting it back in the center.  My grandson has been organizing the candy shelves at the gas station since he was 3, every time his mother takes him with her to get gas.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Desertrat56
spelling

[XenoFish]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

LOL!  I can relate to that.  My friend fancied herself a decorator and I sat on her cough one afternoon and moved this bowl she had on the coffee table to the center, she moved it back cockeyed the way she wanted it and I had to fight to keep from putting it back in the center.  My grandson has been organizing the candy shelves at the gas station since he was 3, every time his mother takes him with her to get gas.

The thing is I get irritated because it's not "Just Right". Not mad or anything, just mildly grrr.

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I've done this. In a restaurant and my doctors office. I've also been caught rotating cans the right way in the grocery store. 

Me too. 

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, Musicmatters said:

more anxious because the OCD thought was beginning to manifest.

Thoughts do not manifest. If you think there's a pink dragon in the kitchen and then check, there will be no pink dragon. Well. Unless you hallucinate but that's still not a real dragon.

1 hour ago, Musicmatters said:

I'm Debilitated and sometimes suicidal because of anomalistic experiences

Are you on any kind of medication that helps? If not, have you seen a doctor about all this?

[ChrLzs]

Just curious....  How about diarising, or perhaps keeping a video log?  I would have (possibly ignorantly :D) thought that might be something that an OCD sufferer would be OK with.

Then, after a 'hit', in other words after the thing you were predicting happens, analyse it (preferably with the help of others).

F'rinstance, using your first example of the 'Bob' thing..  I'll analyse it as it would apply to me..  Given your personal circumstances, how often would you come across the word Bob?  In my case, I'd say maybe once every 2-3 days or so, once I add in my work (I process many new clients each day, and Bob isn't exactly a rare name) and my personal life.  If I then add in other uses, eg as a word I might hear at a gymnasium, or on TV .. I know one Bob, and I always ask people who give me their name as Robert - "do you go by Bob or Rob or Robert.." and so on.  Plus, I would be thinking of other possibilities,. maybe the word Bob initially came up in a dream that you had, and it subconsciously registered and was then perhaps triggered by a similar sound...  I could go on, but you get my drift - it's not a rare word in my life, so by pure chance that could happen.

But here's the rub - my brain, like everyone's, is an absolute master at association and pattern-matching .. and (scary music) even changing the timelines so that an event that happened just before another may be remembered the other way around or vice versa...  So yes, you may well have been thinking the word Bob, and then suddenly a Bob event happened, but your brain will then conveniently forget all the other times beforehand when you were, perhaps close to subconsciously, expecting the sound.

Brains are designed to do this - it's how our ancestors survived by learning patterns and shapes and sounds and associations, and it's hardly surprising to think that if have OCD your tendency to do it may be 'worse' or better - depending on how you look at it...

It's all just synchronicity, I reckon...

[Musicmatters]

The way I experience this stuff is the exact same way that Kirby surprise talks about in his videos I linked to on my original post. And it happens like that hundreds a time a day with any word, phrase, noise etc. I don't think it's supernatural perse, but I think it's something we haven't figured out with our brains yet. the goal of my post was to take the subject and experiences seriously and i mainly wanted to hear from rational people who also have the experiences, not rational people who have never had them. 

I'm thankful for the people who had something useful to comment on this topic. I really appreciate it.

But I noticed some of you people just came here to derail a serious thread that was meant to provide support for debilitating experiences that people kill themselves over just to talk about how you're so OCD. And that's not why I came here for. 

My post is not so much about OCD but about how these strange experiences are more consistent and noticable in people with severe OCD, other mental illnesses, and drug users than normal people and to try to figure out a link their. And also the post was created to offer rational explanations on these experiences and get a rational discussion going based off the sources I provided.

If you're not going through this, it's best not to comment, or if you do comment at least bring up the fact that many people on this forum have posted about going through the same thing in other threads so I can have reference, instead of just talking about your "so OCD" bull****. 

This is an unexplained mystery forum where 90 percent of the posts here are from people who have the exact experiences that I discussed in my post, but the main comments I'm getting are people talking about their "I'm so OCD experiences." Something is wrong here!

The point of my post is that many people like me go through this, and to provide sources from skeptical psychologists/scientists who have gone through this too, but who are now trying to help people see that it's normal. Those are very interesting sources of higher qualified people who have gone through this but who are now trying to give a rational perspective on what they went through to save lives. 

All I want you to do is check out the sources (especially the ones about Kirby surprise) and have rational discussion regarding those, thanks.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Musicmatters

[+Desertrat56]

@Musicmatters  That 90% you are talking about is not real.  Yes, a lot of us have strange experiences, but I would guess that those of us that do have not had your experience.  If you found a video on youtube that describes what you are experiencing you could contact that person.  This is not really a place for much help.  It is a discussion forum and if 90% of others on this forum had similar experiences to you, then they would be posting in this thread if they have read it.  I think this forum is made up of 50% skeptics and 50% experiences (some straddling both groups depending on the subject).  Of those there are open minded and closed minded in each group and I really don't think there is 90% of anything in this group unless you include "boredom" or "in need of thoughtful stimulation and interaction".

So, I don't understand what you are experiencing so I can't offer any suggestion except to do some open minded research and consider the possibility that your thyroid or some other biological reason is causing you these experiences.  Eliminate that first, (and I am not advocating psychotropic drugs or anti-depressants as I think those make thing worse instead of better) then if it is not found to be biological, research everything else.  Since we don't know you we can only give you advice and you can choose what makes sense to you but it is up to you to figure it out.  Blessings on your journey and I hope you do find the help you need.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Desertrat56

[ChrLzs]

Musicmatters, I spent a bit of time responding politely with some observations, and you've completely ignored those and instead complained about the responses.  Looking thru those responses, I'm not seeing much in the way of your alleged derailing or '"so OCD" bull****'.

So, goodbye, I won't bother posting further.  Maybe a quick mirror check might be in order.

[Musicmatters]

@ChrLzs you were one of the commenters who I was referring to when I said: "Im thankful for the people who had something useful to comment on this topic. I really appreciate it." 

it was some other commenters who had very useful stuff to say as well, and I was thinking about including all the names of the people who were useful and thanking them directly. But I was so frustrated after seeing those comments that I just wanted to quickly post the comment. 

It just offended me that their was a string of posts talking about OCD problems that had nothing to do with my post. I've been in severe pain and thought since this is an unexplained mysteries forum I would have more people understanding me and not just labeling it as OCD as usual and calling it a day. It's really frustrating when you're suffering and for help you come to a forum that's all about unexplained phenomenon but you login expecting empathetic answers but instead you see a string of posts where people only notice the OCD issue and proceed to talk about their "normal OCD experiences" it made me think they didn't see the seriousness of my suffering. 

@ChrLzs I didn't write my comment aimed at you or any other helpful commenters. For you and those other commenters I'm thankful.  The reason I wrote that comment is because I had just logged back in expecting a good discussion based on my experiences and the linked sources I provided. But instead I saw the back and forth posts between a couple of users regarding OCD, and I wrote my comment in response to those posters because I was expecting to see people commenting more about the experiences and the sources I included and not just OCD. 

In my comment i did say I wanted commenters who have experienced it but that's not the main requirement

The main commenters I want are people who are extremely empathetic and who would at least point me in the direction of other threads talking about my experiences, or try to understand my experiences scientifically by checking out the sources and having a rational dicussion regarding those.

@ChrLzs you're one of those commenters who I consider empathetic and I apologize if you felt my comment was directed at you. 

there are a few more empathetic commenters here who I will thank personally, 

And I actually admire @XenoFish because I wish my mind could be like that so I couldn't have to worry about this stuff. 

I love hardcore skeptics, but I would really love to hear from more skeptics who were debilitated by this stuff but who overcame it and remained skeptics. 

And also skeptics who would at least check out the Kirby surprise links and give their opinion.

 

 

[XenoFish]

48 minutes ago, Musicmatters said:

I wish my mind could be like that so I couldn't have to worry about this stuff.