Study Finds Trump Tax Cuts Didnt Help

[Tatetopa]

The trend is longer than president Trump, so I am not laying blame at his feet entirely, but he continues this trend:

Do you make a good day today by using credit cards or do you have a good day but save some back for the future and put off that Disneyland trip?

The deficit continues to grow.

Our infrastructure continues to crumble.

Our education system gets further behind.  We need engineers and technical people but we are more concerned with protecting for-profit colleges that we are teaching the next generation.

Automation continues to nibble away at middle class jobs  without much of a plan to retrain people.

East Coast cities are facing increasing days of flooded streets on no storm days  due to the Chinese Hoax of climate change..

We stopped tracking honeybee population and ok'ed use of honeybee killing insecticides as part of a regulation roll-back to make farming cheaper.  Of course the Chinese solved their lack of bees problem by sending peasants out to pollinate fruit trees with a little paint brush.  Great job for 50 year old displaced autoworkers. 

Yeah, I know, I sound all gloom and doom.  I don't mind facing problems head on and fighting.  I hate hiding from what may come and pretending our grandchildren will discover some wonderful way to solve it.

[+DieChecker]

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Maybe not.  I am less worried about the bottom 10% getting free health care than I am about working people in the 20% to 80% range seeing access and benefits cut to maintain a tax cut for the top 10%.

There is an old joke about a rich man, a working man, and a poor man who sit down to share a cherry pie.  The rich man takes 5 of the 6 slices and says to the working man, "You better watch out, I think the poor guy is trying to steal your slice of pie."

I'm worried about the 90% who might get worse healthcare, and more taxes, and a lower standard of living. 

There's a fable called The Little Red Hen. Where she asks people to help themselves, and help her make bread. But, the other animals don't want to help, they only want the bread.

In my thinking, the "Rich man" spent 20 years building up his bakery business, and so gave some to his employee, and then one other guy came in off the street and just stared expectantly. Now, I think we should help that poor man, but I think instead of handing him a fish, we should teach him to fish.

[Gromdor]

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I'm worried about the 90% who might get worse healthcare, and more taxes, and a lower standard of living. 

There's a fable called The Little Red Hen. Where she asks people to help themselves, and help her make bread. But, the other animals don't want to help, they only want the bread.

In my thinking, the "Rich man" spent 20 years building up his bakery business, and so gave some to his employee, and then one other guy came in off the street and just stared expectantly. Now, I think we should help that poor man, but I think instead of handing him a fish, we should teach him to fish.

I have a similar fable.  It's a story called, "The Scarlet Plague".  It's about how the rich tried to lock and hide themselves away from a plague that was affecting the poor, but it killed them anyways.

The health/well being of the public is a problem all of society faces, not just those afflicted.  Denying medical care for the poor still affects you- but hey, at least you can die with your bread.

[+DieChecker]

52 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I have a similar fable.  It's a story called, "The Scarlet Plague".  It's about how the rich tried to lock and hide themselves away from a plague that was affecting the poor, but it killed them anyways.

The health/well being of the public is a problem all of society faces, not just those afflicted.  Denying medical care for the poor still affects you- but hey, at least you can die with your bread.

Oh, I had forgotten they closed all the free clinics, ERs, and Obamacare didn't help anyone. I'm sorry...

Let's of course turn 300 million people's healthcare upside down, and change the way the entire trillions of dollars industry operates, rather then just identifying who needs help and putting them on Medicare. 

Super complex, versus super simple. Ummmm.... let's go with complex, says the Democrats. Because.... socialism. Why not?

[Gromdor]

13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Oh, I had forgotten they closed all the free clinics, ERs, and Obamacare didn't help anyone. I'm sorry...

Let's of course turn 300 million people's healthcare upside down, and change the way the entire trillions of dollars industry operates, rather then just identifying who needs help and putting them on Medicare. 

Super complex, versus super simple. Ummmm.... let's go with complex, says the Democrats. Because.... socialism. Why not?

Well, we did give the Republicans an opportunity to "repeal and replace" with something better.  The way I see it, we either go with the "No plan" party or the "Socialism plan" party to solve the problem.

[+DieChecker]

2 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Well, we did give the Republicans an opportunity to "repeal and replace" with something better.  The way I see it, we either go with the "No plan" party or the "Socialism plan" party to solve the problem.

So only listen to the extremes. Compromise is right out? It's communism, or dictatorship?

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

So only listen to the extremes. Compromise is right out? It's communism, or dictatorship?

Nah.  The end product will be middle of the road.  Probably something similar to what most of the rest of the world uses. 

[Tatetopa]

7 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I'm worried about the 90% who might get worse healthcare, and more taxes, and a lower standard of living. 

There's a fable called The Little Red Hen. Where she asks people to help themselves, and help her make bread. But, the other animals don't want to help, they only want the bread.

In my thinking, the "Rich man" spent 20 years building up his bakery business, and so gave some to his employee, and then one other guy came in off the street and just stared expectantly. Now, I think we should help that poor man, but I think instead of handing him a fish, we should teach him to fish.

I certainly don't disagree.  I am not about free lunches as an entitlement, but as I said, I am talking about the middle 80% of hard working people who are getting less and less.  The bakery owner is most likely part of that 80%.  I am strongly in favor of small business.  I am  less in favor of the CEO of "MOM's" bakery who owns 700 bakeries nationwide and buys small mom and pop bakeries and shuts them down and lays off the employees.

Those people working for a living are the ones being squeezed.  It is not the bottom 10% that determines the wages and benefits of the 80% nor the cost of the goods they need to buy.

Now before you get on me for that, I will qualify and say that the top 10% are not villains either, but our system and our tax structure encourage the flow of money into fewer pockets.

I think you have said you work for Intel, certainly a large corporation and I have worked for two large corporations, one in wood products and one in aerospace.  Certainly there is a place and a need for large corporations who can tackle multi-billion dollar projects No argument from me on that either.  But in endeavors where mom and pop businesses are suited, maybe they should be nurtured by tax codes rather than abandoned and left to their fates.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

17 hours ago, Gromdor said:

It's good to hear conservatives finally admit that government can create jobs, too.  The mantra for the longest time was that, "Government doesn't create jobs."

Yes, Grom that is correct. Trump didn't create jobs, he simply prevented the Democrats from closing down jobs. Trump didn't give businessmen free money, he simply took less of what they earned and let the businessmen did the rest.

It's all about "freedom", Gromdor.  ya dig. That's what all us free marketeers and Libertarians have been preaching all along. Get the greedy hands out of the American pie and Americans will mostly prosper, as in, "The rising tide raises all boats". 

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Now, I think we should help that poor man, but I think instead of handing him a fish, we should teach him to fish.

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll go buy Cheeze Doodles." book of Eot, Circa now

 

[Gromdor]

23 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Yes, Grom that is correct. Trump didn't create jobs, he simply prevented the Democrats from closing down jobs. Trump didn't give businessmen free money, he simply took less of what they earned and let the businessmen did the rest.

It's all about "freedom", Gromdor.  ya dig. That's what all us free marketeers and Libertarians have been preaching all along. Get the greedy hands out of the American pie and Americans will mostly prosper, as in, "The rising tide raises all boats". 

Hmm.  But the Dems- specifically Obama created more jobs than Trump.....  But then again Trump with his government interference with trade (with his tariffs and the like) always has been less of a free market guy than Obama.

  Don't get me wrong.  The unions are liking the protectionist attitude Trump has.  Forcing the market to buy more expensive US steel via tariffs instead of having Americans step up and figure out how to compete.  And I as an Iowan certainly appreciate the tax payer bailouts for our agricultural industry.  Government subsidized business is nice, especially when it was the government screwing up the contracts and trades from before.  The last billion wasn't enough, however.  We look forward to the third installment of taxpayer funded corporate welfare for our farmers.

[CrimsonKing]

15 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Hmm.  But the Dems- specifically Obama created more Trump...

In 2 1/2 years or his 8 overall?

[Gromdor]

53 minutes ago, CrimsonKing said:

In 2 1/2 years or his 8 overall?

Both in individual years as well as overall.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/07/05/trump-is-falling-almost-1-million-jobs-short-vs-obama/#9f8c2f98caa7

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/10/30/two-charts-show-trumps-job-gains-are-just-a-continuation-from-obamas-presidency/#69d6a98d1af3

That's the problem with taking credit for climbing a mountain, though.  If you are too close to the peak, you can go up a bit but after that you can only stay at that level or go down.

[GlitterRose]

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll go buy Cheeze Doodles." book of Eot, Circa now

 

I guess those fish can be elusive. Lol.

[CrimsonKing]

3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Both in individual years as well as overall.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2019/07/05/trump-is-falling-almost-1-million-jobs-short-vs-obama/#9f8c2f98caa7

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/10/30/two-charts-show-trumps-job-gains-are-just-a-continuation-from-obamas-presidency/#69d6a98d1af3

That's the problem with taking credit for climbing a mountain, though.  If you are too close to the peak, you can go up a bit but after that you can only stay at that level or go down.

I agree on peak numbers,but one thing i noticed was that the numbers were much closer just 5 months back...i also figured Trumps tariff war would slow things down abit for awhile...can't say i'm completely shocked,but i'm also not against Trumps tariffs on China.

We'll see how that all unfolds,and i'll get back to ya...

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Let's look at the big picture here.

Trump has reduced taxes, set unemployment lows for Blacks, Latinos and women, set records on the DOW and S&P 500, tax revenue has increased for each year of his tenure despite tax cuts, GNP has increased each year of his tenure, and I can only see one negative...

the whining democrats!   "Stifle, dingbats"  

[Gromdor]

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Let's look at the big picture here.

Trump has reduced taxes, set unemployment lows for Blacks, Latinos and women, set records on the DOW and S&P 500, tax revenue has increased for each year of his tenure despite tax cuts, GNP has increased each year of his tenure, and I can only see one negative...

the whining democrats!   "Stifle, dingbats"  

Trump did all that, huh?  Heard he was going to cure cancer too after Biden claimed he was going to do it. 

[+DieChecker]

12 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I certainly don't disagree.  I am not about free lunches as an entitlement, but as I said, I am talking about the middle 80% of hard working people who are getting less and less.  The bakery owner is most likely part of that 80%.  I am strongly in favor of small business.  I am  less in favor of the CEO of "MOM's" bakery who owns 700 bakeries nationwide and buys small mom and pop bakeries and shuts them down and lays off the employees.

But if we are talking healthcare, those 80% already have it, and 80% of them very much like what they already have.

You think the middle 80% aren't going to pay more on socialized medicine? Depends on if they can get hospitals and workers to take a 20%-25% pay hit. If so, then maybe, if not, then it will be more expensive. ACA was supposed to make things cheaper, but the costs, after implementation, just kept climbing and climbing.

[Farmer77]

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

You think the middle 80% aren't going to pay more on socialized medicine?

 They wont if they actually have to use their insurance.

I think for the sake of projections the real question is out of that 80% how many have had to actually use their insurance for medical problems.  Sure they may be paying less in premiums but even the best insurance (not to mention that which 80% of the nation can afford) leaves huge chunks of unpaid bills that undoubtedly total more than the tax increase for socialized medicine. 

 

[Tatetopa]

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

But if we are talking healthcare, those 80% already have it, and 80% of them very much like what they already have.

You think the middle 80% aren't going to pay more on socialized medicine? Depends on if they can get hospitals and workers to take a 20%-25% pay hit. If so, then maybe, if not, then it will be more expensive. ACA was supposed to make things cheaper, but the costs, after implementation, just kept climbing and climbing.

OK maybe I was ranging too far afield.  Are we focused on health care?  I'll try to stay on point.

Whether there is Obamacare, Trumpcare, or no care, the price of health care will go up.  Obamacare was a promise unkept, but costs would have gone up no matter what was in place.

Our health care system lacks one thing that makes free enterprise work:  competition, and maybe openness too..   There are alliances and deals made with the government and among the health care companies that have nothing to do with patient outcome. or cost of care to the patient.

Those things need redress.

A small personal example:  I use a prescription substance daily.. I have (good) insurance. Recently they changed a drug coverage table.  They will no longer cover the generic drug my doctor prescribed and I have been using, but they will cover the brand name same substance.

When I went in for a refill, the pharmacist told me about the change.  OK, I thought,  I'll change to the brand name.  The pharmacist told me I could buy the generic without insurance for $23 dollars less than my copay with insurance for  the brand name.  Instead of $40 for the generic, the brand name list price is $170 of which the insurance pays about $105.  Sounds very generous of the insurance company, no?  Think there might be a large kick back in there and a commission for the insurance company to sell the brand name?  

Good think I know my local pharmacist and he was willing to take a look for me instead of just ringing up the higher price as he could have done.

That does not serve me well.  How many other people on other medications face the same thing?  If neglected think it will get better or worse?

And for your good point about who pays:  Who pays now for the McDonalds worker without sick days or insurance that has appendicitis, or whose child has pneumonia?  Who pays for the person on the street who has a heart attack and turns out to be homeless and without insurance?   Most likely we do.  It is rolled into the cost of our care and our insurance premiums.  We don't get off for free now.

Maybe there is a more cost effective system.

[Gromdor]

Hah, Mnuchin just sent a letter to Pelosi saying that the US government will run out of money earlier than expected and before the next congressional session:  https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/politics/mnuchin-congress-letter-debt-crisis/index.html

The US might default on it's debts unless Pelosi can open up the old credit card for Trump before the August recess.