Escalating Tariffs on Mexico - Do You Agree?

[Big Jim]

6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

And what is it with you Republicans?  You had two years to come up with more than that and failed. Lets get it together.

That's a cheap shot, unless you think I'm a Congressman posting incognito, which I can assure you I'm not.  I've only had 2 years to post my ineffective opinions on forums like this, same as you.

[+and-then]

14 hours ago, OverSword said:

There are more jobs to be filled by migrant workers than work visas issued. On top of that getting one of these visas is more difficult than it needs to be.

Today, this is the case.  When the economy goes through the inevitable correction and down cycle, these people won't be going anywhere except to the welfare office.  I understand that there are laws about noncitizens receiving benefits but like many other laws, they get ignored today.  These people vote illegally as well.  There is no will in DC to solve this problem because both parties benefit from it as is.  I have no problem with those who come here to work.  If they don't want to be citizens then there should be a legal niche carved out for them that includes denial of all welfare benefits for them AND any dependents they bring and if they are caught voting they should be kicked out for good.  If they come back, imprison them.

[+and-then]

14 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

Is the confidence that Mexico alone can fix the problem really justified?

He has been stymied at every turn within this country.  He's using the power he has to attempt to get help from Obrador.  The Tariffs aren't intended to be permanent and Obrador's government isn't expected to completely solve this problem.  What's expected is that he stop allowing his country to be a pipeline for illegals into the U.S.  The problem with attempting to deal with people that absolutely won't give an inch is that the other party to the negotiation might be just as stubborn.  The Left is finding this out about Trump.  I absolutely REFUSE to feel guilty about my nation not taking on and supporting every person who wants to come here.  People who want to label me as hateful or xenophobic are welcome to do so.  I don't care.  The policies of the Progressives lead to scenes like the ones in Portland, Seattle, and LA.  Beautiful, vibrant, wealthy cities that look like third world hell holes.  It is absolute insanity to allow such things to happen just because the politicians are unwilling to compromise, ever.  Secessionist movements are beginning to look more and more attractive every day.

ETA:  For those who still see this as no real problem or a contrived political issue, this from a recent Fox News report:

There were 58,474 families apprehended last month, according to CBP. In March, the agency said that there was an increase of nearly 106 percent over the same period last year. 

When do we draw a line?  Is this country not worth even trying to save?  Call me a hater but the truth is I'm just pointing out the realities that America faces.  

THIS is what I'm referring to when I say the problem isn't just young men coming here for work.  It's entire families from Central America who know that they can demand to be admitted under our insane Asylum laws and then just blend into the fabric of the country.  These families are immediate burdens on the social systems and the safety net designed for our own citizens.  When will it be enough?  Do we need to keep flooding the country until our social welfare systems collapse?  Until we begin seeing violence against these people?  I don't advocate such a thing but if they keep coming unchecked and pressures build on local communities, it will happen.

Edited June 2, 2019 by and then

[Gromdor]

37 minutes ago, and then said:

He has been stymied at every turn within this country.  He's using the power he has to attempt to get help from Obrador.  The Tariffs aren't intended to be permanent and Obrador's government isn't expected to completely solve this problem.  What's expected is that he stop allowing his country to be a pipeline for illegals into the U.S.  The problem with attempting to deal with people that absolutely won't give an inch is that the other party to the negotiation might be just as stubborn.  The Left is finding this out about Trump.  I absolutely REFUSE to feel guilty about my nation not taking on and supporting every person who wants to come here.  People who want to label me as hateful or xenophobic are welcome to do so.  I don't care.  The policies of the Progressives lead to scenes like the ones in Portland, Seattle, and LA.  Beautiful, vibrant, wealthy cities that look like third world hell holes.  It is absolute insanity to allow such things to happen just because the politicians are unwilling to compromise, ever.  Secessionist movements are beginning to look more and more attractive every day.

ETA:  For those who still see this as no real problem or a contrived political issue, this from a recent Fox News report:

There were 58,474 families apprehended last month, according to CBP. In March, the agency said that there was an increase of nearly 106 percent over the same period last year. 

When do we draw a line?  Is this country not worth even trying to save?  Call me a hater but the truth is I'm just pointing out the realities that America faces.  

THIS is what I'm referring to when I say the problem isn't just young men coming here for work.  It's entire families from Central America who know that they can demand to be admitted under our insane Asylum laws and then just blend into the fabric of the country.  These families are immediate burdens on the social systems and the safety net designed for our own citizens.  When will it be enough?  Do we need to keep flooding the country until our social welfare systems collapse?  Until we begin seeing violence against these people?  I don't advocate such a thing but if they keep coming unchecked and pressures build on local communities, it will happen.

Huh, have you been to Seattle or Portland lately?  I have and they aren't anywhere near third world country status.  The city of Seattle alone had twice the GDP of the whole state of Alabama for example.  And lets not even get into education, poverty, pay scale, infant mortality and the like.

And why do you keep saying they get welfare?  American children born from these families are eligible but a family with foreign born kid gets nothing.

I hate to say it, but it seems to me someone is just perpetuating these lies to make poor people hate other poor people rather than focus the blame on the true issues that is causing their problems.  My guess it is those guys who hire and profit from illegals while at the same time speaking against them.

[+and-then]

No, I haven't been to either in about 15 years.  Am I to disbelieve multiple news reports and imagery from those places just because I'm not there myself?   As to comparing them with my state, Alabama is backward in many ways and a lot of that is due to our relative poverty compared to other states.  It is what it is and it could be MUCH better if a priority were set on business and education but that doesn't change what's happening in these Liberal cities that have basically ditched all standards for holding people accountable for behavior.  It's literally "anything goes" "no judgments" (except for caucasian males)  It's about lawlessness, Gromdor.  The basic structure of our nation is based on "laws, not men".  That is failing at the highest levels of our government and lawlessness spreads and increases.  

I agree that we're being pitted against each other by those who are using immigrants for cheap labor and cheap votes.  I actually have a first cousin who became wealthy bringing in "labor" from Mexico.  He and I don't speak, these days.  I don't fault human beings for dreaming and wanting a better life - it's what America was built on.  I DO fault people who come here and have no interest in becoming citizens and who actually are now demanding entry as a right.  As to poor people hating other poor people, that's always a thing when resources are scarce and as the numbers of these "migrants" swells, that pressure is going to become immense.

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, Big Jim said:

That's a cheap shot, unless you think I'm a Congressman posting incognito, which I can assure you I'm not.  I've only had 2 years to post my ineffective opinions on forums like this, same as you.

It was Jim, sorry.  I should not have said "you" Republicans.  I suppose I would be offended if I was called a Democrat.

[Big Jim]

6 hours ago, and then said:

It's entire families from Central America who know that they can demand to be admitted under our insane Asylum laws and then just blend into the fabric of the country. 

This caught my attention based on the way those two words came together and that's all I had in mind when I quoted it.  But your point about blending into the fabric of the country was brought home to me this afternoon as I browsed a popular local flea market.  I've been going there for years and until recently it was what I considered a Hillbilly Mall.  Lots of country folk and about 98% white.  This was my first time going this year and I was surprised to find the crowd to be about 60% Hispanic.  Honestly, I didn't overhear much English being spoken.  There were a lot of families and a lot of the women were pregnant.  Now, mind you, this is in SW Ohio, not necessarily a magnet for immigrants from the south.  The fact that there were so many this far north made me think that the country must be filling up with them.  

[Tatetopa]

2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

This caught my attention based on the way those two words came together and that's all I had in mind when I quoted it.  But your point about blending into the fabric of the country was brought home to me this afternoon as I browsed a popular local flea market.  I've been going there for years and until recently it was what I considered a Hillbilly Mall.  Lots of country folk and about 98% white.  This was my first time going this year and I was surprised to find the crowd to be about 60% Hispanic.  Honestly, I didn't overhear much English being spoken.  There were a lot of families and a lot of the women were pregnant.  Now, mind you, this is in SW Ohio, not necessarily a magnet for immigrants from the south.  The fact that there were so many this far north made me think that the country must be filling up with them.  

Everywhere there are jobs in low end manufacturing and agriculture that don't attract enough applicants from the local area you will find immigrants.  I've had to hire into entry level machine operator positions for a couple of decades and it keeps getting harder to find people that will show up and work a mandatory 55 hours a week, not come in drunk, call in sick on Fridays or tear up our machinery.   We work on government contracts so we are very careful about our background checks.  We interview 10; 5 fail the drug test, we hire three and two disappear or get terminated within 6 months.   We do not discriminate, but some natural selection does go on. The people that stick are mostly legal immigrants from Asia, Central America, and former soviet republics.  Having a family settles a person down and helps encourage him or her to get up and come into work everyday.

And these are still the jobs that put airplanes in the air, trucks on the road, and a lot of consumer goods in the stores.  They provide a basic good living for somebody willing to work. Plus we do pay overtime, offer insurance, 401k and other benefits.  Try to get a 19 year old fresh out of high school, single and ready to party  interested in working 10 hours a day every day or give a hoot about insurance or a 401k they don't think they need.  Some do, but not the majority. 

I think we need sound immigration policies based on how many jobs we need to fill.

[Big Jim]

5 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think we need sound immigration policies based on how many jobs we need to fill.

That's right in line with Trump's proposed merit based immigration policy.  Instead of allowing all comers or picking people by lottery he wants to give preference to the people we need, who can contribute to America and not be a drain on resources.

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, Big Jim said:

That's right in line with Trump's proposed merit based immigration policy.  Instead of allowing all comers or picking people by lottery he wants to give preference to the people we need, who can contribute to America and not be a drain on resources.

I seem always the critic I guess.  Similar maybe.  The Trump plan has some benefit  he wants a merit system rather than a family system.  That part sounds good.  He wants highly trained people: computer engineers and scientists and professionals.  We need those too.

Where we differ is in the details.   The fact that we import  so many technical people tells me we are not training enough of our own.  That is a problem when the immigrants return home.  A red flag goes up for me, we need to train more of our own kids or we will be left behind.  If we make it difficult to bring families, then some of those people will make enough money, pick up some skills, and some good CV references and go away again.  It highlights a problem we have in the long term.

In addition to a strong military, we need a very strong technical work force to keep us ahead and safe in a world of extreme competition.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that a software engineer from Belgium is not going to spend his summers working on a farm, or cleaning bathrooms on graveyard shift or working in manufacturing facilities like I have managed.  We need those people too.  

Think about this for a minute, a truly advanced high tech country on top of the supply chain should want its own children taking the most advanced jobs and working like heck to make sure they have the education and training to get there.  They should be bringing in the people that work in the lettuce fields and slaughter houses, tire factories, and fabrication shops.  Being content to let your own kids sink to bottom level jobs and not even keeping those is no way to stay on top as a nation.

We are talking about importing people to do the $200k jobs and filling the $40 k jobs ourselves.  It makes no sense. 

Mind you, I have great respect for people that work hard and honestly, but the world is full of them.  America can't be first if we don't have the home grown brain power to hold on to it.

 

 

[+and-then]

11 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think we need sound immigration policies based on how many jobs we need to fill.

The system COULD be fixed and made relatively equitable but the folks in DC don't seem interested.  The result of an uncontrolled flow and turning our head or winking at lawlessness will be that if the system ever is fixed on paper, these people who are coming to the "Promised Land" will ignore those laws.  Lawlessness is like a cancer.  It moves from one organ system to another, sets up shop and grows, to the detriment of the host body.  

[Big Jim]

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I seem always the critic I guess.  Similar maybe.  The Trump plan has some benefit  he wants a merit system rather than a family system.  That part sounds good.  He wants highly trained people: computer engineers and scientists and professionals.  We need those too.

Where we differ is in the details.   The fact that we import  so many technical people tells me we are not training enough of our own.  That is a problem when the immigrants return home.  A red flag goes up for me, we need to train more of our own kids or we will be left behind.  If we make it difficult to bring families, then some of those people will make enough money, pick up some skills, and some good CV references and go away again.  It highlights a problem we have in the long term.

In addition to a strong military, we need a very strong technical work force to keep us ahead and safe in a world of extreme competition.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that a software engineer from Belgium is not going to spend his summers working on a farm, or cleaning bathrooms on graveyard shift or working in manufacturing facilities like I have managed.  We need those people too.  

Think about this for a minute, a truly advanced high tech country on top of the supply chain should want its own children taking the most advanced jobs and working like heck to make sure they have the education and training to get there.  They should be bringing in the people that work in the lettuce fields and slaughter houses, tire factories, and fabrication shops.  Being content to let your own kids sink to bottom level jobs and not even keeping those is no way to stay on top as a nation.

We are talking about importing people to do the $200k jobs and filling the $40 k jobs ourselves.  It makes no sense. 

Mind you, I have great respect for people that work hard and honestly, but the world is full of them.  America can't be first if we don't have the home grown brain power to hold on to it.

 

 

Trump's plan wants to change the focus on the criteria for immigration from random to purposeful.  Having it be skill based doesn't mean only engineers, just eliminating immediate welfare cases or people whose only qualification is a distant relative who has already made it to America.  One of those skills should be proficiency in English.  America has been behind for years when it comes to education.  That's serious but it's not an immigration issue.  You can draw all kind of lines between the two but they are still separate issues and require different solutions.  For the most part I agree with the bolded part of your comments but what you point out is due to the liberal influence in education.  The reason we're not turning out more engineers and scientists could be because the mostly liberal universities put too much emphasis on things like gender studies and women's empowerment.  It could also be because we don't nurture the discipline required to pursue such rigorous training.  When you get you trophy for showing up you really don't need to try much harder.  It's also dependent on economics.  Why become an engineer when you can make just as much as a manager without all those difficult math classes?  We reward business degrees more than we reward scientific degrees.  There's a lot about America that could use improvement.  Taking care of third world refugees on our own soil diverts focus and resources from the important jobs.  

[Tatetopa]

48 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

There's a lot about America that could use improvement.  Taking care of third world refugees on our own soil diverts focus and resources from the important jobs.  

I don't want to take care of them, I just want to put people to work who want to work.

I read things too, but my opinions are formed by personal experiences as I suppose everybody's opinions are.  I have spent a lot of my career as a process engineer close to the operations and employees at aerospace manufacturing plants.  I turned aside from the manager track and still got stuck doing it a couple of times.  It was not my cup of tea.  

And yes kids with a lot less experience and a business degree became my bosses and made more money than me.  Some had talent and good sense and made the most of it. Some never grew out of being frat boys, and management is the post graduate home for aging frat boys in some places.

In any case, I found I enjoyed spending most time on the shop floor, solving problems, improving product quality and reducing cost.   Eventually I did become a senior engineer and made about as much as an area manager.  But you are right, you have to want to be an engineer to stay with it, because the financial rewards are not spectacular .  Money is not the only reward, you have a drive to do it and gain satisfaction from accomplishments. 

I liked the operators, and most of them worked hard and were eager to learn and improve themselves.  For some, being a department lead is a high aspiration.  I guess there are freeloaders out there, they were screened out of my environment.  That is why I think most immigrants come here to live the old American dream, work hard, get ahead, find something better for their children.

I think we do need some technical people, but I wonder what merit means.  I have a feeling my frat boy transitory bosses with business degrees look like they have merit on paper. They would want to come here to scoop as much money as they could from our system for as little as they could get away giving in return.  I am not sure that is enough for America. Merit is not enough. Sticking to immigration and leaving education aside, a lot of our ancestors that came to America would not look like they have merit.  The measure of their merit was that they were brave or desperate enough for a fresh start, were willing to work hard and start at the bottom.  No degrees, no references. nothing fancy about them.

Focusing on segments of people we want to allow in seems a lot like a Russian 5 year plan, looks good on paper, fails due to economic reality. 

Now if you consider speaking English a good qualification, I would agree that it makes life easier for everybody, no matter what language family members speak at home.

Chain immigration for green card holders does not extend past sibling I have read, and they are fourth preference behind children, adult children and spouses.  Being a family member of someone who is here and working is some merit too.

I heard President Trump speak on this and he exaggerated that situation.  Also he said that these people are taking American's jobs. I don't believe from references I can find that can be a substantial number.   It is mostly low level jobs Americans don't want. On the other hand, he wants to bring in highly educated people for the best American jobs available and does not think they are taking American jobs?   That makes little sense.

If we want to cut immigrant visas from a million a year to half a million a year based on economic reasons, I'm for it.  If it is fear or false assumptions, not so much.

[Myles]

10 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I seem always the critic I guess.  Similar maybe.  The Trump plan has some benefit  he wants a merit system rather than a family system.  That part sounds good.  He wants highly trained people: computer engineers and scientists and professionals.  We need those too.

Where we differ is in the details.   The fact that we import  so many technical people tells me we are not training enough of our own.  That is a problem when the immigrants return home.  A red flag goes up for me, we need to train more of our own kids or we will be left behind.  If we make it difficult to bring families, then some of those people will make enough money, pick up some skills, and some good CV references and go away again.  It highlights a problem we have in the long term.

In addition to a strong military, we need a very strong technical work force to keep us ahead and safe in a world of extreme competition.

What he doesn't seem to realize is that a software engineer from Belgium is not going to spend his summers working on a farm, or cleaning bathrooms on graveyard shift or working in manufacturing facilities like I have managed.  We need those people too.  

Think about this for a minute, a truly advanced high tech country on top of the supply chain should want its own children taking the most advanced jobs and working like heck to make sure they have the education and training to get there.  They should be bringing in the people that work in the lettuce fields and slaughter houses, tire factories, and fabrication shops.  Being content to let your own kids sink to bottom level jobs and not even keeping those is no way to stay on top as a nation.

We are talking about importing people to do the $200k jobs and filling the $40 k jobs ourselves.  It makes no sense. 

Mind you, I have great respect for people that work hard and honestly, but the world is full of them.  America can't be first if we don't have the home grown brain power to hold on to it.

 

 

Don't be fooled into believing that we are not putting out fine engineers and scientists.  

I think the idea is that we don't want to import too m any poor uneducated people.   

[Space Commander Travis]

10 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Think about this for a minute, a truly advanced high tech country on top of the supply chain should want its own children taking the most advanced jobs and working like heck to make sure they have the education and training to get there.  They should be bringing in the people that work in the lettuce fields and slaughter houses, tire factories, and fabrication shops.  Being content to let your own kids sink to bottom level jobs and not even keeping those is no way to stay on top as a nation.

Slave labour then. It's the way forward! Just like the Roman Empire, which the US seems to be becoming more and more like every year. 

[Tatetopa]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

Don't be fooled into believing that we are not putting out fine engineers and scientists.  

I am not fooled into believing that.  I am one of them, and my son has chosen software engineering.  He one of them too.  But it is not enough.  BigJim pointed out that is not strictly an immigration problem and I agree that belongs in an education thread.

However, don't be fooled into believing that all American jobs are for well educated and highly trained people.  Agriculture and manufacturing businesses are asking for more unskilled entry level jobs.  The truth of it is, for a lot of those, one doesn't need to read or write or speak English.  As a kid, I did odd jobs in the summer and in my area, picking strawberries is almost a rite of passage.  A kid can make a little spending money and eat a lot of strawberries.  You get paid by weight not by the hour.  We were not the farmer's best employees, but he had to get his berries picked.  Work alongside a migrant agricultural worker with a wife and kids and he would pick 4x the berries we did and not eat a double handful.  Farmers loved those guys.   Those jobs need to be filled too.

Working through college, besides labs and school dish crews, I had to work in pipe coating plants and electroplating plants and cleaning out barges.  All of that is low pay, undesirable work that needs to be done.  Those jobs do not attract well off, well educated people as a rule.

[Big Jim]

4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I am not fooled into believing that.  I am one of them, and my son has chosen software engineering.  He one of them too.  But it is not enough.  BigJim pointed out that is not strictly an immigration problem and I agree that belongs in an education thread.

However, don't be fooled into believing that all American jobs are for well educated and highly trained people.  Agriculture and manufacturing businesses are asking for more unskilled entry level jobs.  The truth of it is, for a lot of those, one doesn't need to read or write or speak English.  As a kid, I did odd jobs in the summer and in my area, picking strawberries is almost a rite of passage.  A kid can make a little spending money and eat a lot of strawberries.  You get paid by weight not by the hour.  We were not the farmer's best employees, but he had to get his berries picked.  Work alongside a migrant agricultural worker with a wife and kids and he would pick 4x the berries we did and not eat a double handful.  Farmers loved those guys.   Those jobs need to be filled too.

Working through college, besides labs and school dish crews, I had to work in pipe coating plants and electroplating plants and cleaning out barges.  All of that is low pay, undesirable work that needs to be done.  Those jobs do not attract well off, well educated people as a rule.

Between this post and the last you're raising more points than I have time to respond to right now.  So for now I'll focus on the entry level jobs you mention.  You and I have followed similar paths except for college.  But I still made it into a technical field and occasionally supervisory level.  I didn't like it either.  I'm all in favor of working one's way up the ladder.  But the influx of low skilled workers have clogged the pipeline.  Traditionally those jobs were stepping stones for kids entering the workforce, as our personal histories have demonstrated. A person would hold one for a short time and move on, creating an opening for those who follow.  In comes millions of illegals who get those jobs and expect to make a career of it.  Compared to where they come from even minimum wage makes them rich.  Throw in section 8 and food stamps and in their minds they're living like kings.  They have no higher aspirations.  So we end up with 40 year old immigrants permanently filling jobs meant as 2 year stints for teenagers.  Now the kids have no job prospects.  It's harder to work your way through college, so we end up with fewer skilled American workers and more graduates saddled with debt.  The impact on our society and culture only expand from there.  There seems to be no end in sight unless it is stopped, now.  That's where Trump comes in.

[Tatetopa]

2 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

Slave labour then. It's the way forward! Just like the Roman Empire, which the US seems to be becoming more and more like every year. 

In a sense yes, but not as slaves.  That sort of work should not be considered demeaning, and the secret is, there has to be a way out for those who want it.

 I aspire to a system  where the tire factory worker and the millionaire both have kids in the same high-quality elementary school and both families can send those kids to the same trade schools and universities,   That may not be what America is,  but it could be.

[RavenHawk]

On 6/1/2019 at 5:05 AM, Tatetopa said:

People stomp their  feet, shake their fists and rage at new taxes, but they should be OK with tariffs? It is another tax we pay. 

Taxes are usually permanent.  Punitive tariffs will last until one side blinks.  I believe we should be the stronger country.  Are we wrong in protecting our interests?

 

 

And as usual, it is mostly the working people who will pay it for vehicles and appliances and all sorts of goods besides avocados.and blueberries. 

There are more sources for vehicles and appliances than fresh fruits and vegetables.  Mexico's main agri market is the US.

 

People can do without guacamole and blueberries, and they can even deal with shutting down American auto plants and other manufacturing facilities because they can't get parts to assemble IF there is a good, logical  reason.   

 

That's the attitude of someone that has succumbed to the Prog narrative that the American people are no good and we never accomplished anything.  We've done pretty good for 200 years not depending on others.  In fact, we are a very opportunistic and innovative people.  Tariffs would generate new manufacturing jobs at home to fill the holes vacated by foreign products.

 

Telling people they will be better off in the long run will not wash; especially hard-headed business types who can do the numbers.

 

For those that believe in hard work and sacrifice, of course it will wash.  Yes, those hard-headed business types know a good ROI when it shows itself.

 

So what we want Mexico to do for us is build a wall and put guards on it  to keep people in, sort of like the communist regimes in North Korea and last generation in East Germany   Encouraging our neighbors to control their borders like North Korea does not seem like a request from the pinnacle of freedom.  But we will punish them if they do not. 

Ah, so for being the pinnacle of freedom, we should commit suicide?  Now I do agree that we should be policing our border and I don't care who pays for it.  It is our responsibility to defend our nation.  It'll take stages but we need to get it done.  But that is what Trump is doing.  There is more than one way to do something.  If Congress can't do their job, Trump has other ways to get the job done.  He's done that all his life.

 

And what happens if they can no longer afford to pay the guards and repair the wall?  Our problems continue to get worse.

 

Then maybe we should take care of it in the first place?!  Let's start reducing our problems.  The Progs only want to exacerbate.  That is the source of their power, to create division and unrest.

 

Use that American steel will you mentioned to build the friggin wall you and many others said would solve the problem.  And then make it work. 

 

If we don't have that steel will, then we really don't have a nation.  How much longer do you really think this nation has if it can't defend itself?

 

Fact or opinion?  It seems our own hippie dippy  anti-vaxers are the ones responsible for the measles cases, not immigrants. 

 

I'm not talking about measles.  I'm talking about all the other diseases that are popping up that are raging through the population.  The thing with measles is that if you are vaccinated for it, it's not going to spread through the vaccinated population.  What will spread will be all those thought-long-dead diseases and other new-world diseases that incubate in the third-world tropical forests.

[Tatetopa]

13 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Between this post and the last you're raising more points than I have time to respond to right now.  So for now I'll focus on the entry level jobs you mention.  You and I have followed similar paths except for college.  But I still made it into a technical field and occasionally supervisory level.  I didn't like it either.  I'm all in favor of working one's way up the ladder.  But the influx of low skilled workers have clogged the pipeline.  Traditionally those jobs were stepping stones for kids entering the workforce, as our personal histories have demonstrated. A person would hold one for a short time and move on, creating an opening for those who follow.  In comes millions of illegals who get those jobs and expect to make a career of it.  Compared to where they come from even minimum wage makes them rich.  Throw in section 8 and food stamps and in their minds they're living like kings.  They have no higher aspirations.  So we end up with 40 year old immigrants permanently filling jobs meant as 2 year stints for teenagers.  Now the kids have no job prospects.  It's harder to work your way through college, so we end up with fewer skilled American workers and more graduates saddled with debt.  The impact on our society and culture only expand from there.  There seems to be no end in sight unless it is stopped, now.  That's where Trump comes in.

Good.  Fact or opinion?

From an employer's point of view, a 40 year old immigrant is a lot more stable resource that finding and training a string of one to two year temporaries. Much better return on asset.

Minimum wage has not gone up that much in the last 40 years.  A person making $10 dollars an hour could not pay college expenses like I did making $2.50. I thought a $10 dollar used text book was expensive, some of my kid's books are rigged so you have to buy a new one and hey cost over $00 at a state school.  He worked in the summer at better jobs than I had and barely made a scratch on his college expenses.

We had those jobs because the boss couldn't get anybody else and we could afford to work dirt cheap.    That doesn't hold water for our kids.  Working minimum wage jobs in the summer and during school cannot pay tuition and expenses.  Immigrants clogging the pipeline may not be the problem.

Consider this: if we banned all immigrants and put our kids to work in the sometimes dangerous and dirty jobs for low wages.  You can bet wages would stay low and benefits non-existent.  What would their hopes be?  Sharing a  Playstation and a cheap two bedroom apartment with three roommates?  Without a parent's  help, those jobs can be dead ends.  Unless you stay and work hard enough to become a lead, and supervisor, or a technician, there is not much of a way up.   Unless you have outside help, there may be no way out.  What happens after two years?  How do you move on?

Tuition at a state school costs 6 times what it did when I went to school, room and board about the same.  You can barely buy all of your text books with a summer's work. 

My opinion is that we are killing the American dream and ignoring the murder.  We are on our way to making a more divided and class conscious society with very little opportunity to rise on merit and every opportunity to do it with wealth.

[RavenHawk]

On 6/1/2019 at 7:32 PM, OverSword said:

What a frickin load of bullcrap. Almost every time I hear a Spanish accent it’s somebody on a construction site, in a restaurant kitchen, delivering supplies to my office, etc...

And how many construction workers, restaurant workers, and delivery people is that?  That doesn't account for where the millions of illegals go.  For every one that does work at a minimum wage job, there are multiple others "in the family" that pull down welfare checks and government assistance.

[Big Jim]

31 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Good.  Fact or opinion?

From an employer's point of view, a 40 year old immigrant is a lot more stable resource that finding and training a string of one to two year temporaries. Much better return on asset.

Minimum wage has not gone up that much in the last 40 years.  A person making $10 dollars an hour could not pay college expenses like I did making $2.50. I thought a $10 dollar used text book was expensive, some of my kid's books are rigged so you have to buy a new one and hey cost over $00 at a state school.  He worked in the summer at better jobs than I had and barely made a scratch on his college expenses.

We had those jobs because the boss couldn't get anybody else and we could afford to work dirt cheap.    That doesn't hold water for our kids.  Working minimum wage jobs in the summer and during school cannot pay tuition and expenses.  Immigrants clogging the pipeline may not be the problem.

Consider this: if we banned all immigrants and put our kids to work in the sometimes dangerous and dirty jobs for low wages.  You can bet wages would stay low and benefits non-existent.  What would their hopes be?  Sharing a  Playstation and a cheap two bedroom apartment with three roommates?  Without a parent's  help, those jobs can be dead ends.  Unless you stay and work hard enough to become a lead, and supervisor, or a technician, there is not much of a way up.   Unless you have outside help, there may be no way out.  What happens after two years?  How do you move on?

Tuition at a state school costs 6 times what it did when I went to school, room and board about the same.  You can barely buy all of your text books with a summer's work. 

My opinion is that we are killing the American dream and ignoring the murder.  We are on our way to making a more divided and class conscious society with very little opportunity to rise on merit and every opportunity to do it with wealth.

I can't relate to all of the college references or help getting through it.  I was born into a very anti-education family.  All I heard from my father from 8th grade on was "no kid of mine is ever going to college".  I was the only kid in my high school who didn't take the SAT because it cost $10, and I wouldn't need it anyway.  It's not that we were poor.  My dad spent more than that on bowling every week.   I ended up without a diploma because I needed to make up a half credit course and I wasn't allowed to go to summer school.  But somehow I made it to a respected position in two distinct fields, social work and IT.  Not bragging or looking for sympathy, but just pointing out that it can be done.  Along the way I've had many low level, minimum wage jobs.   The fields I excelled in were rather narrow and the jobs were specialized niches, so they weren't always available.  When I was earning low, I lived low.  When I did better I lived better.  But always within my means.  Four times I've lost everything I had, including but not limited to, job, wife, home, possessions, friends, and cars.  A few times I've been homeless.  But now I have a nice house in a nice neighborhood, and life is good. All on a SS income that amounts to less than $10 per hour.  Perseverance counts as much as education.  

This country was built on kids taking dirty jobs for low pay.  The law protects them from the dangerous ones. Nothing motivates you to succeed like a dirty job.  It's also where you learn the basic skills like promptness and attendance, respect for authority and the reality that all jobs require some skill no matter how menial they may seem.  These will serve you well as you reach for the next rung.

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

And how many construction workers, restaurant workers, and delivery people is that?  That doesn't account for where the millions of illegals go.  For every one that does work at a minimum wage job, there are multiple others "in the family" that pull down welfare checks and government assistance.

So you think the freeloaders outnumber the people that are trying to earn huh? 

[+Desertrat56]

3 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

And how many construction workers, restaurant workers, and delivery people is that?  That doesn't account for where the millions of illegals go.  For every one that does work at a minimum wage job, there are multiple others "in the family" that pull down welfare checks and government assistance.

Illegals do NOT pull down welfare checks or government assistance, unless they stole someone's identity or worked for that chicken company (now out of business because they finally got caught) that stole identities for their illegal workers

[+OverSword]

4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Illegals do NOT pull down welfare checks or government assistance, unless they stole someone's identity or worked for that chicken company (now out of business because they finally got caught) that stole identities for their illegal workers

He's confused because the actual reality is that over 60% of non citizens do collect some form of assistance.  However that is people here legally.  And most of those on some form of assistance, like many Americans, also work at low wage and part time jobs.