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OverSword

Escalating Tariffs on Mexico - Do You Agree?

Escalating Tariffs on Mexico - Do You Agree?  

37 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you agree with President trumps escalating tariffs on Mexico in order to stop ilegal aliens from crossing the border?

    • Yes, I agree. Mexico should be made to pay because Ilegals cost us money
      17
    • No, I disagree. Tariffs only make things more expensive for consumers
      16
    • Who cares? I'm moving to Canada.
      4


345 posts in this topic

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aztek
18 hours ago, aztek said:

MEXICO CITY (Reuters) - Mexican soldiers, armed police and migration officials blocked hundreds of migrants after they crossed the border from Guatemala in a caravan into southern Mexico on Wednesday, and detained dozens of them, a witness from a migrant aid group and an official said.

The Mexican response in the border town of Metapa, which included dozens of soldiers, marked a toughening of the government's efforts to curb the flow of mainly Central American migrants, said Salva Cruz, a coordinator with Fray Matias de Cordova.

The operation in Chiapas coincided with a meeting of Mexican and U.S. officials at the White House on Wednesday to thrash out a deal that would avoid blanket tariffs on Mexico threatened by U.S. President Donald Trump last week.

Trump announced the tariffs in retaliation for what he called Mexico's failure to stop Central American migrants from reaching the U.S. border.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/mexico-meets-migrants-southern-border-233725731.html

 

look at that, tariffs work in mysterious ways. once again proof, trump knows how to get things his way. 

Mexico foreign minister says national guard to deploy to southern border

"We have explained that there are 6,000 men and that they will be deployed there," Foreign Minister Marcelo Ebrard told reporters in televised remarks as he left a meeting with U.S. officials in Washington.

Ebrard added that Mexico's talks with the United States about migration will continue on Friday. Trump has threatened to slap tariffs on Mexican imports starting next week if Mexico does not do more to contain the migrant flows.

 

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acidhead

 

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Montmorency the Dog

So apparently now Trump drops his Mexico tariff threat after reaching immigration enforcement deal

See, I told you he was a genius. another victory for the Big Man! can anything stop him now? ^_^

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RoofGardener
35 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

So apparently now Trump drops his Mexico tariff threat after reaching immigration enforcement deal

See, I told you he was a genius. another victory for the Big Man! can anything stop him now? ^_^

I suspect there is a soupcon of sarcasm in the above :D

But the point is... President Trump WON. He brought the Mexican government to the negotiating table, and hammered out a deal that protects the USA. 

Well Done Donald. 

The liberals will - of course - be furious, and find SOME way of denigrating him for it. No doubt it will turn out to be RACIST... or possibly influenced by THE RUSSIANS, or involve obstruction of justice. Or it will be fattening. Or SOMETHING. 

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preacherman76

This is why people have to think a little deeper when it comes to the moves DT makes. 

He knew it wouldn’t come to actually doing it. Even if he had to it wouldn’t have been for long. He was just giving Mexico a little motivation to see things our way. 

Classic example of the art of the deal as well. Go overboard on the demands and find a happy middle ground.

Brilliant. 

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F3SS

Well then, it looks like this may have worked to some degree. It's been 24 hours now and I haven't seen any spin on how Mexico is getting the last laugh here.

I don't get how so many people always think everything we (DT) do is some foolish mistake that has the other country countering us with a checkmate. The days of apologizing, groveling, bowing and taking a back seat are over for now. We're the big dogs and we don't need anybody half as much as they need us. Asserting dominance on occasion is appropriate.

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RavenHawk
On 6/3/2019 at 1:53 PM, Tatetopa said:

NO.  I am not on the "Americans are no good" bandwagon.  I am not criticizing American innovation or will in any way.   I am thinking about the American economy.

Well, you're not thinking too clearly.  How much longer do you think we will be relevant when we allow ourselves to be taken advantage of?  That is not good for the economy.

 

First, to replace those starter relays made in a Mexican plant we would have to retool a vacant factory and get production up and running. 

Precisely!

 

Having started greenfield plants, I can tell you that six months to get running and a year to full production is about right.  You don't replace a disrupted supply chain overnight that is all there is to it.  It can be done, but it takes a while even with American brilliance and ingenuity.

 

Correct for normal circumstances.  But if you really want to see American brilliance and ingenuity, focusing government resources and private capital could reduce that time to retool to less than 6 months.  Slow down auto production so not to exhaust current supplies.  There are strategies to do this.  We just need to determine if we are going to be a people "that didn't build that" or a people that believes, "yes we can!"  No, this isn't something that just happens overnight but if planned right, will only be a hiccup in overall production.

 

Cost of that starter relay?  If it is 5% more than the Mexican product, you keep buying from Mexico.  If they are paying their workers $7 an hour, how much can an American company pay and stay competitive? 

How much cheap crap from China do you have in your home?  After a few uses, it's broken and you have to throw it away and replace it.  You usually don't replace and just do something the old way.  This generates great waste and a siphoning of a nation's wealth. 

 

We had gotten one of the original Hurricane spin buckets for mopping floors.  After a few months of use, it broke.  I disassembled it and found that one of the cogs split.  I couldn't find a replacement cog, but there were 3 cogs of the same size in the assembly.  I replaced the broken one with the least needed whole one.  It's been working fine for a long time plus by removing the one cog has released a lot of the torque that caused the one cog to split.  That's American ingenuity, but most of those buckets are sitting in a closet unused or in a landfill.  If someone could independently produce those cogs, it would extend the life of these buckets indefinitely.

 

Starters are always breaking down.  They are one of the more common parts that need to be replaced.  How much is incured in repair costs?  Not just in money but also labor that is taken from doing other repairs.  That also includes time the owner can't spend driving the car.  At some point, cheap becomes more expensive than quality.

 

Are we after creating new $7 an hour jobs? 

We'd be after quality.  The bottom line isn't just about costs up front.  Maybe for beer cans, cheap steel is fine but for parts for assembling durable goods, not so much.

 

Or will that American businessman take the idle equipment in Mexico and move it to Burkina Faso or Slovakia and make starter relays there?

 

It depends if he's learned the lesson between quality versus quantity.  When people have a car, they expect to be driving the car and not having it in a garage having cheap parts repaired or replaced.  Eventually, people will tire of that and demand better.  They won't mind paying more for a more reliable car.

 

Hard headed business types and the Chamber of Commerce are speaking against tariffs now, not for them.

 

I would imagine that some are.  That's the party line.

 

Yes and no.  Yes we are opportunistic and innovative.  No we were dependent on others. 

The only time we had truly been dependent on someone would have been the French toward the end of the Revolutionary War.

 

We made the America of today by taking a continent from the original inhabitants.  It was free with all of its incredible resources. 

 

That's the story of any nation that ever existed.  That's a flimsy talking point.

 

We were totally dependent on immigrant labor of the cheapest kind to fuel our agriculture and factories. 

 

That's in-house.  These immigrants weren't given government handouts.  They came here to work and survive on their own.  They were dependent on the opportunity.

 

In colonial and early national times it was slaves and indentured servants and  the uneducated hopeless dregs of European nations. 

 

At least these were legal.  In one way or another, they were medically screened.  The slaves and servants were cared for by their owner.  These hopeless dregs survived by their own ingenuity and self-reliance.  They had to assimilate, leave, or die.  And not many were able to leave.

 

Those people were all immigrants until their anchor babies were born. .They became us.

 

They were also legal immigrants.  Anchor babies only refer to illegals.  Those that assimilate become us.  Most illegals lack the good character to assimilate and abide by the law.  We don't care what were the circumstances they came from, only that they follow these two rules.  If you can't then you are unwanted and unwelcomed.

 

All technologically advanced nations that built wealth bought raw materials and sold valuable finished goods. (We got our original nest egg by taking those raw materials.) 

That's pretty much how it works (we aren't the only ones to take advantage of resources).

 

The English didn't become field hands and grow cotton to become rich, they built textile mills, imported cotton and exported desirable more expensive textiles back to the people who grew the cotton. 

I'm sure many became wealthy growing cotton but it was the textile mills England is known for.  And it wasn't selling desirable textiles back to those who grew the cotton but to the world markets that sought said desirables.

 

Bringing back jobs from Mexico brings back Mexican, or Chinese, or Pakistani  level pay for those jobs. That is not a win for the American people or the economy.

 

I'm not so sure.  Yes, the labor will go up but so will the quality, which means that it will be cheaper for the consumer in the long run.

 

It is not foolish to import what is inexpensive and export what is valuable. 

Cheap parts make crapy exports.  Eventually no one will want such crapy stuff if quality is available.

 

It is foolish to think a nation will remain rich by competing  with low wages on inexpensive products and expecting its citizens to do well.

 

You get what you pay for.  A nation's wealth is sustained by the quality of its durable goods.  This is why China is in trouble.  They thought that their gambit would conquer the world.

 

I am not opposed to sacrifice for a long term benefit for myself or my country, but I am opposed to hitting my own thumb with a hammer to show others how tough  I am.. There has to be a good long term sensible reason for our policies RavenHawk.

 

Absolutely!  That is what Trump is doing.  This isn't a matter of hitting one's thumb but trying to stop the bleeding.  It is about the long term survival of this nation or any other.

 

Building a wall and controlling immigration is sensible. Having a sensible immigration policy based on what we need and not what we fear is sensible too. 

 

Letting in what we need and keeping out what we fear is very sensible.  It is two sides of the same coin.

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

But if you really want to see American brilliance and ingenuity, focusing government resources and private capital could reduce that time to retool to less than 6 months. 

Yep.  You are talking about war footing projects.  Sure, you can do it.  But then what?  Does the government pay the owners $4 an hour for each employee making $7 an hour because they are competing with overseas labor making $3 an hour?  Do you pay people $3 an hour?  They will leave if they can find a better job.  Do you force them to stay?   Does the government pay the managers an extra $120,000 because the going rate for a manager is $160,000 and the manager in Taiwan only makes $40,000? 

Where is your comfort line beyond which government assistance becomes government interference and control leading to more socialism and to communism?

RavenHawk, I have been an process engineer  working on quality for thirty years.  Quality is my field, and it is really no mystery how to attain it; good design, good materials, and good workmanship are pretty basic.

Starter motors are  a  commodity product.  You could make starter motors, and starter relays, and alternators, and fan belt clutches, and 100 other items in a car with better quality.  We could do it in the US, it could be done in Mexico, or Thailand.  It is not a mystery. It is good design, proper materials, proper manufacturing methods.

Customers don't want to do that because of cost.  Adding just a couple of dollars to the cost of every component would raise the price of a car by a thousand dollars.  Automakers choose not to do that.  Customers choose not to support that.

RavenHawk, right now in America you can buy top quality merchandise in almost every category.  Often it costs more.  I fill my home with products that I research to be of the best quality I can afford regardless of where they are made.  We could all do the same with automobiles, there are brands available if we can afford them. But most people can't.

People don't shop at Walmart for good quality, they shop there because it is what they can afford.  If you don't have the money today, you can't buy a t-shirt that will last 2 years.  You buy the cheap one that will last six months because that is what your budget allows and you have to get to work and feed your kids.  People buy used cars and know they will break down because it is what they van afford.  

If you have the luxury of picking quality over cost in all of your decisions, you are making a whole lot more money than the average wage earner.  

I don't sell American ingenuity and brilliance short.  We will eventually design cars without starter motors or times will change and very few people will need to own a car, or we will build a starter motor factory 100% full of robots.  Ingenuity and brilliance have to work within the currents of the economy to produce something consumers want at a price they can pay and make a profit for the owners. .  Exceptions would be government shielded drug companies or vanity jeans and sneakers where somebody is willing to pay a lot for cool.  A current field of American brilliance is the Internet; Google, Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, and many others had their roots in American ingenuity.  They still utilize economic principals.

 

Unless you do live in a state-run economy, everything in the world has a cost. If you live in North Korea, a starter motor can be as crappy and cost as much as dear leader says it will. 

Anywhere else, you buy by price and quality.  You can't make a starter motor in America that cost $2 more than the one made in Mexico if the value is equivalent.  Unless the government interferes in the free market.

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The Truman show
10 hours ago, F3SS said:

Well then, it looks like this may have worked to some degree. It's been 24 hours now and I haven't seen any spin on how Mexico is getting the last laugh here.

I don't get how so many people always think everything we (DT) do is some foolish mistake that has the other country countering us with a checkmate. The days of apologizing, groveling, bowing and taking a back seat are over for now. We're the big dogs and we don't need anybody half as much as they need us. Asserting dominance on occasion is appropriate.

Credit where credit is due. Trump escalated with Mexico and he won. Not sure if its gonna make a difference to illegal immigration but for the faithful Trumpters is a glorious win.  

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Gromdor
33 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Credit where credit is due. Trump escalated with Mexico and he won. Not sure if its gonna make a difference to illegal immigration but for the faithful Trumpters is a glorious win.  

Heh, now the news media is reporting that the terms he got were negotiated months ago.  https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/08/politics/nyt-trump-mexico-agreed-deal-months-ago/index.html

They are pretty much saying the tariff threats were just bluster he did to make him look tough to his supporters. 

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The Truman show
1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

Heh, now the news media is reporting that the terms he got were negotiated months ago.  https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/08/politics/nyt-trump-mexico-agreed-deal-months-ago/index.html

They are pretty much saying the tariff threats were just bluster he did to make him look tough to his supporters. 

there you go. Thought so. Just the usual Trump bluster and bravado on display. Pity Trump wasn't one of this Rock'n roll wrestlers from the eighties early nineties. 

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Big Jim
7 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Heh, now the news media is reporting that the terms he got were negotiated months ago.  https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/08/politics/nyt-trump-mexico-agreed-deal-months-ago/index.html

They are pretty much saying the tariff threats were just bluster he did to make him look tough to his supporters. 

You lost me at CNN.  Why not just say "The President's sworn enemies are reporting...."?  If this was close to true don't you think they would have reported it months ago?  Or at least when he imposed the tariffs?

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Gromdor
7 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

You lost me at CNN.  Why not just say "The President's sworn enemies are reporting...."?  If this was close to true don't you think they would have reported it months ago?  Or at least when he imposed the tariffs?

Probably because they thought the terms for not putting the tariffs on were something that wasn't already negotiated is my guess.  It's still a win for Trump,  it's not like any of his followers will listen to media about this or check to see if this is true or not.

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Gromdor

To be fair, the terms were originally negotiated by Kirstjen Nielsen before she quit being Secretary of Homeland Security.  In a lot of cases where people quit at work, their projects tend to just get dropped.  I can see Mexico not going through the deal at the time with the thought, "Well, she quit.  I guess all that stuff is out the window." 

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preacherman76
46 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

To be fair, the terms were originally negotiated by Kirstjen Nielsen before she quit being Secretary of Homeland Security.  In a lot of cases where people quit at work, their projects tend to just get dropped.  I can see Mexico not going through the deal at the time with the thought, "Well, she quit.  I guess all that stuff is out the window." 

Yep. If that story is even true I bet anything this came about cause Mexico wasn’t keeping its end of the deal up. 

I have doubts it’s true though. Trump didn’t get all he was asking for. Why negotiate a deal that’s already done?

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Big Jim
1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

Probably because they thought the terms for not putting the tariffs on were something that wasn't already negotiated is my guess. 

The news isn't what they think will happen it is what has happened.  They either had evidence months ago for what they're reporting now or they didn't.  

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Big Jim
1 hour ago, Gromdor said:

  it's not like any of his followers will listen to media about this or check to see if this is true or not.

You know this for a fact, do you?  Am I to suppose that you polled a few?  Maybe you can read minds?

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Gromdor
39 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

You know this for a fact, do you?  Am I to suppose that you polled a few?  Maybe you can read minds?

Yup.  Can't post a link to CNN or the like without Trump supporters dismissing it without even reading it.  Plenty of proof just on these forums.  The response is almost Pavlovian at this point. 

 

41 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

The news isn't what they think will happen it is what has happened.  They either had evidence months ago for what they're reporting now or they didn't.  

They did have evidence months ago.  Hence the article.  They didn't print it because no one thought that Trump would settle for what was already decided.

If I sell you a car a month ago and you throw a hissy fit about your lawn and demand repayment a month later-  the news that I sold you a car a month a go is irrelevant.  But then if you turn around and demand that I sell you a car then the fact I sold you a car a month ago becomes relevant again. 

Edited by Gromdor
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Big Jim
23 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Yup.  Can't post a link to CNN or the like without Trump supporters dismissing it without even reading it.  Plenty of proof just on these forums.  The response is almost Pavlovian at this point. 

 

They did have evidence months ago.  Hence the article.  They didn't print it because no one thought that Trump would settle for what was already decided.

If I sell you a car a month ago and you throw a hissy fit about your lawn and demand repayment a month later-  the news that I sold you a car a month a go is irrelevant.  But then if you turn around and demand that I sell you a car then the fact I sold you a car a month ago becomes relevant again. 

I'm glad we got that straightened out.

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bee
2 hours ago, Gromdor said:

They did have evidence months ago.  Hence the article.  They didn't print it because no one thought that Trump would settle for what was already decided.

 

yeah.... that'll be it.... ^_^

I'm not familiar with the details of all this but what I am familiar with is that the Anti Trump Media
will never make any report that is favourable towards Trump... with the exception of when he was
conned into bombing Syria a while back after a false flag chemical attack aimed at framing Assad...
if he can be maneuvered to do military stuff that is in line with the Globalist Agenda they give him
a few crumbs of praise... but other than that.... zero, zilch nada......

we know the routine by now... twist everything he does into something negative... and failing that just lie...
present it in a slippery way that is ambiguous and time consuming to counter act... and  who is there
who will counter act the steam of calculated negativity pouring out 24/7....? ....

Isn't it more or less known now that CNN, NYT and all the rest who parrot them... are Globalist,
Corporatist Left Wing (maybe even Communist) owned and  controlled propaganda outlets.... ?....

 

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Montmorency the Dog
18 hours ago, F3SS said:

I don't get how so many people always think everything we (DT) do is some foolish mistake that has the other country countering us with a checkmate. The days of apologizing, groveling, bowing and taking a back seat are over for now. We're the big dogs and we don't need anybody half as much as they need us. Asserting dominance on occasion is appropriate.

Triffic; just as long as the government desists from bullying other countries into going along with whatever lunatic foreign policy adventure it come up with next

Edited by Dumbledore the Awesome

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Big Jim
5 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

Triffic; just as long as the government desists from bullying other countries into going along with whatever lunatic foreign policy adventure it come up with next

Bullying other countries is a time honored technique in foreign relations. It's how war was invented, why castles were built.  There's been an ongoing arms race since the first hominid threw a rock at a rival.  It's never pretty, but at least in this instance the weapon was a tariff instead of a missile.  We may be at the top of the pecking order but we're far from the only ones doing it. 

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Hammerclaw

I have no pity at all for Mexico, which--for decades--has so willing foisted tens of millions of their poor up on us, bragged about it and profited, handsomely, from it. It's time they paid the piper.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I never liked Tariffs.  Here is what I would go after in order to rectify the situation:  U.S. Giving $5 Billion in Aid To Mexico

Infowars link

I'd threaten to take that back and then watch how fast Mexico's El Presidente moves!

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Big Jim
11 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I never liked Tariffs.  Here is what I would go after in order to rectify the situation:  U.S. Giving $5 Billion in Aid To Mexico

Infowars link

I'd threaten to take that back and then watch how fast Mexico's El Presidente moves!

But once it's given it's gone.  Then there's no getting it back.  So Mexico could be like a child behaving the week before Christmas and going back to being a brat the day after.  The tariffs are more under our control and can be used repeatedly until they get the message.

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