Escalating Tariffs on Mexico - Do You Agree?

[+OverSword]

On 6/3/2019 at 9:56 PM, Big Jim said:

I agree jobs are part of the allure, but sanctuary cities can't be discounted.  When there is a place where all your sins are forgiven you don't need a job.  The red carpet is out and they tell you ahead of time you can do no wrong here.  Who wouldn't go through hell to get to a place like that?

It doesn’t work like that. Ice can still do it’s federally mandated job in sanctuary cities and states, but they will not be given local resources to do so. I’m all for that personally. The feds take a substantial chunk of my pay every day, they get no more.

[+OverSword]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:06 PM, Big Jim said:

Look at the places that are sanctuaries, like LA and Seattle, and tell me that immigrants are neither attracted or a drain.

I live in Seattle, how are immigrants a drain? I’m not seeing it. Is my vision clouded because I’m in the middle of it and you can see it more clearly from where you are? You know what I see? Huge skyscrapers being built, successful businesses that come from this little city and it’s suburbs who’s impact are felt around the world and the and beautiful scenery.

[+OverSword]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:39 PM, Big Jim said:

Picture of homeless camps and piles of needles and poop in the streets sure give a different impression.

There’s no poop in the streets and the homeless are mainly American white junkies, not immigrants. The homeless here make a choice between paying for a home or for drugs. They, the drug addicted Americans are the drain not immigrants.

[aztek]

homeless issue is not illegal issue, 2 different problems. it is very common, however , for illegals occupy a house in numbers that a house was not build for, i've seen small 1 family home house 30 people,  some houses are divided into small sections,that barely fit a bed, and has no door, these spaces rented out to illegals, i've seen such houses burn, and trap people due to all dividers,  but that mostly affects them, and some unlucky neighbors,

illegals are drain in other ways,  billions in unpaid hospital bills, over 50B a year is wired out of us economy yearly,, but cost to us over 100B , not to mention stolen identities,  i posted numerous articles on it, with numbers and details.

[+OverSword]

44 minutes ago, aztek said:

homeless issue is not illegal issue, 2 different problems. it is very common, however , for illegals occupy a house in numbers that a house was not build for, i've seen small 1 family home house 30 people,  some houses are divided into small sections,that barely fit a bed, and has no door, these spaces rented out to illegals, i've seen such houses burn, and trap people due to all dividers,  but that mostly affects them, and some unlucky neighbors,

illegals are drain in other ways,  billions in unpaid hospital bills, over 50B a year is wired out of us economy yearly,, but cost to us over 100B , not to mention stolen identities,  i posted numerous articles on it, with numbers and details.

Agreed.  Again things that would be greatly reduced following the libertarian model and importing more legal workers.  Fight against the market at your own detriment.

[Myles]

1 hour ago, aztek said:

not if they are employees of a temp agency. in that case that temp agency is responsible for all paper work,  those agencies can close up any day, and another one opens up. 

But if they are using a temp agency, isn't the savings gone?    I know we pay a temp agency $22/hour for a clerk that makes $15/hour.

 

[aztek]

9 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Agreed.  Again things that would be greatly reduced following the libertarian model and importing more legal workers.  Fight against the market at your own detriment.

like i said before that is exactly what illegals do not want. i can guarantee you almost none of those who jumped our border, was ever thinking of coming here legally

 

7 minutes ago, Myles said:

But if they are using a temp agency, isn't the savings gone?    I know we pay a temp agency $22/hour for a clerk that makes $15/hour.

 

yea,  pretty much, but this way they can get a job, that an illegal can't otherwise get.  

Edited June 5, 2019 by aztek

[Myles]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I live in Seattle, how are immigrants a drain? I’m not seeing it. Is my vision clouded because I’m in the middle of it and you can see it more clearly from where you are? You know what I see? Huge skyscrapers being built, successful businesses that come from this little city and it’s suburbs who’s impact are felt around the world and the and beautiful scenery.

It's probably not as much the immigrants as it is the illegal immigrants.  

Where I am at in a smaller town in Indiana (12,000), the illegals cause lots of issues.   Their homes are a mess.   I think it is mostly due to how many live in each.   Each person tends to hoard their own stuff and soon the yard is full of all type of crap.  Their neighbors move and it continues to go downhill from there.   The language barrier is an issue as well.   Most don't speak English and very few homegrown folks speak Spanish.      

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, aztek said:

like i said before that is exactly what illegals do not want.

So there are plenty of unused work visas huh?  I somehow doubt that.

[aztek]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

So there are plenty of unused work visas huh?  I somehow doubt that.

amount of visas is regulated for a reason,  what i do not doubt, that none from caravans, or who jumped border even bothered to try to get here legally

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, aztek said:

amount of visas is regulated for a reason,  what i do not doubt, that none from caravans, or who jumped border even bothered to try to get here legally

Probably 99% right.  It's a pretty good scam the cartels are running with the help of our immigration department.  I wonder who's being paid off to keep illegal immigration such a viable industry.

[+Desertrat56]

10 minutes ago, Myles said:

It's probably not as much the immigrants as it is the illegal immigrants.  

Where I am at in a smaller town in Indiana (12,000), the illegals cause lots of issues.   Their homes are a mess.   I think it is mostly due to how many live in each.   Each person tends to hoard their own stuff and soon the yard is full of all type of crap.  Their neighbors move and it continues to go downhill from there.   The language barrier is an issue as well.   Most don't speak English and very few homegrown folks speak Spanish.      

What kind of jobs do you have in your small town in Indiana that attract the illegal immigrants?  I live in  a border state that has few extra jobs for the citizens, much less illegals and they do not stay here.  Maybe the problem needs to be addressed from the other angle.  Hold the employers who hire illegals to the law and prosecute them.

In the 80's when I lived in SW Virginia and worked at a hamburger joint I remember a coyote who would bring his workers in for lunch.  I would ask them in spanish what they wanted so the coyote talked to me.  I asked about what he did and how he took care of them.  He had a semi that he owned, went every spring to Mexico and brought back a truck load of workers and they worked from Florida to Vermont as the season needed.  He made sure they all had a place to sleep and food to eat.  He got a percentage of their pay, in fact he arranged everything so he was the "foreman" who was paid and distributed the money to the workers at the end of the season.  He would take them back to Mexico for fall and winter and usually had the same crew every year.  The farmers could not afford to hire locals so they were happy to hire these guys because local farmers do not make enough to begin with.  The system is broken to the point that the farmers can barely survive as it is and it takes a lot of work.  They did not have to pay FIca taxes for these workers, which was the only overhead back then.  Now there is all kinds of things small businesses have to pay to the government to hire each worker.

[Big Jim]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

I live in Seattle, how are immigrants a drain? I’m not seeing it. Is my vision clouded because I’m in the middle of it and you can see it more clearly from where you are? You know what I see? Huge skyscrapers being built, successful businesses that come from this little city and it’s suburbs who’s impact are felt around the world and the and beautiful scenery.

Sarcasm noted.  How are they a drain?  By their presence.  They shouldn't be here.  They weren't planned for.  Every drop of waste they produce goes into a sewer system and treatment plant that was built for the resident population.  Every car they drive adds to congestion and wear and tear above what the roads were designed for.  Every dollar of social services they consume was meant for legal citizens, so someone else goes wanting.  Every seat they take in an emergency room means a legal resident has to wait longer.  I could go on.  They are a force because of their numbers.  They have an impact whether it is seen or not.  This is about more than jobs, it's about the way things should be vs the way they are.  Laws are made to create the type of society we want to live in.  Agree or disagree with the result, that is our system and we vote for what we get.  We pay to make the life we want.   Millions of undocumented, and therefore unplanned for, extra persons change in many ways the life we and our ancestors have tried to provide for us.  Whatever you see, no matter how beautiful the scenery is, is not as good as it could have been if our border was secure.

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Big Jim said:

Sarcasm noted.  How are they a drain?  By their presence.  They shouldn't be here.  They weren't planned for.  Every drop of waste they produce goes into a sewer system and treatment plant that was built for the resident population.  Every car they drive adds to congestion and wear and tear above what the roads were designed for.  Every dollar of social services they consume was meant for legal citizens, so someone else goes wanting.  Every seat they take in an emergency room means a legal resident has to wait longer.  I could go on.  They are a force because of their numbers.  They have an impact whether it is seen or not.  This is about more than jobs, it's about the way things should be vs the way they are.  Laws are made to create the type of society we want to live in.  Agree or disagree with the result, that is our system and we vote for what we get.  We pay to make the life we want.   Millions of undocumented, and therefore unplanned for, extra persons change in many ways the life we and our ancestors have tried to provide for us.  Whatever you see, no matter how beautiful the scenery is, is not as good as it could have been if our border was secure.

Where did your ancestors come from before they got to the U.S.?  Were they planned for?  Did they come with resources or looking for a refuge or opportunity?

[Big Jim]

1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Where did your ancestors come from before they got to the U.S.?  Were they planned for?  Did they come with resources or looking for a refuge or opportunity?

Mine came from Europe, legally.  Yes, they were planned for.  When immigration is controlled the numbers are known.  The ship is expected.  I'm sure they came here looking for work.  By going through Ellis Island their skills would have been noted, perhaps they were directed to where they were needed.  I have nothing against immigrants, my comments are, as always, directed at illegal immigrants.  We can't compare today's border crashers with immigrants of yore.  No one ever swam the Atlantic Ocean and snuck in by night.

[+OverSword]

2 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Every drop of waste they produce goes into a sewer system and treatment plant that was built for the resident population. 

Or whoever uses it as they are using toilets and sinks that are hooked up to the system and meant to accommodate it.  The water treatment facilities are not overflowing into our streams.

3 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Every car they drive adds to congestion and wear and tear above what the roads were designed for. 

On their way to work where their presence is to someone's benefit besides their own including the DOT as taxes are paid in this state with every purchase as we do not have a state income tax.

4 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Every dollar of social services they consume was meant for legal citizens, so someone else goes wanting.

That they contribute into as they work multiple jobs via the above mentioned taxes.

6 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

Every seat they take in an emergency room means a legal resident has to wait longer. 

Last time I was in the emergency room (broken arm) most of the people in it were white and black and speaking English.

7 minutes ago, Big Jim said:

They are a force because of their numbers.  They have an impact whether it is seen or not.

It's seen every time goods are exchanged as working a job contributes to the economy and creates profit for someone besides the worker.  If that were not the case there would be no job available.

 

You should try watching some Milton Friedman lectures on YouTube and see how economics works.

[aztek]

24 minutes ago, OverSword said:

 

You should try watching some Milton Friedman lectures on YouTube and see how economics works.

yes, and he explains very well, why they want to be here illegally. 

[+OverSword]

17 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes, and he explains very well, why they want to be here illegally. 

More precisely, he explains why it works fine as long as it remains illegal ie. as long as they are not eligible for government benefits, which in most cases they are not (in theory at least) Just one more instance in which issuing more work visas will help solve the problem as it will free up resources to go after those that are here illegally and ignore the ones that are here contributing to the economy and not collecting welfare.  Once the number of work visas more closely matches the number of jobs avbailable then less people will be here illegally and those that are here legally will be working not sucking the government teat. 

Or we can just continue throwing more and more money at a fight that can't be won because as long as there are jobs people will come here to work at them.

Edited June 5, 2019 by OverSword

[aztek]

7 minutes ago, OverSword said:

More precisely, he explains why it works fine as long as it remains illegal ie. as long as they are not eligible for government benefits, which in most cases they are not (in theory at least) Just one more instance in which issuing more work visas will help solve the problem as it will free up resources to go after those that are here illegally and ignore the ones that are here contributing to the economy and not collecting welfare.  Once the number of work visas more closely matches the number of jobs avbailable then less people will be here illegally and those that are here legally will be working not sucking the government teat. 

Or we can just continue throwing more and more money at a fight that can't be won because as long as there are jobs people will come here to work at them.

it would not even create a dent, since you refuse to realize they do not want to be here legally.  more visas will be picked up by more people who obey laws, those who jump border are not those people. not to mention there is a reason why visas are limited in the first place,

with your logic, why don't we just print more money and pay off our national debt?

Edited June 5, 2019 by aztek

[+OverSword]

4 minutes ago, aztek said:

you refuse to realize they do not want to be here legally.

So do you for one moment believe there are more people from other countries here working illegally than legally?  According to PEW research 76% are here legally so you can stop asserting that they don't want to be here legally.  If they issued more work visas that number would be even larger, it's really common sense. 

Most immigrants (76%) are in the country legally,

[+OverSword]

11 minutes ago, aztek said:

with your logic, why don't we just print more money and pay off our national debt?

Soooooo not comparable.  Issue work visas that more accurately reflect the number of jobs available for immigrants to work leaves less jobs for illegals to work, thereby cutting down the amount of people that would come here to work illegally.  It's pretty basic.  They come here because there are jobs, not to sponge.

[aztek]

6 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So do you for one moment believe there are more people from other countries here working illegally than legally?  According to PEW research 76% are here legally so you can stop asserting that they don't want to be here legally.  If they issued more work visas that number would be even larger, it's really common sense. 

Most immigrants (76%) are in the country legally,

it has nothing to do with discussion at hand,    legal immigrants who go thru process  of getting a visa, and obeying our laws are not the same people who  make a choice to come here illegally, they have very different goals, ratio between legal\illegal is irrelevant

Edited June 5, 2019 by aztek

[aztek]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Soooooo not comparable.  Issue work visas that more accurately reflect the number of jobs available for immigrants to work leaves less jobs for illegals to work, thereby cutting down the amount of people that would come here to work illegally.  It's pretty basic.  They come here because there are jobs, not to sponge.

that is exactly why it is perfectly comparable.  

 

[+OverSword]

Just now, aztek said:

that is exactly why it is perfectly comparable.  

 

No it's not and I know you're smart enough to see how printing more money devalues money but making workers legal cuts down on people here illegally. 

[aztek]

5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

No it's not and I know you're smart enough to see how printing more money devalues money but making workers legal cuts down on people here illegally. 

nope, absolutely not.  those who hire them, most of them,  build their business with them in mind, and wont hire any one with papers, or hire few for books,  how many landscape, demolition ......businesses, do you think  would  still be profitable if they had to hire people legally pay proper wage, pay all taxes and insurances? would you hire a landscaper who charges you 1000, or 2000, for the same job? would you care if cheaper one hires illegals?

Edited June 5, 2019 by aztek