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quiXilver

When does thought transition to belief?

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quiXilver

A belief is a thought, yet not every thought is a belief.

So what makes a thought into a belief?

 

A question undoubtedly asked before, yet worthy of revisiting.  We are not static nouns in this life, but flowing verbs.  We all shift as we move through life, and as there seems to be a prevailing attitude that adding to existing older conversations is somehow inappropriate I will ask as it seems a question worth revisiting regularly, since one of the aspects of wisdom seems the discovery of one's true nature in the process of exposure to more experience.  Exploration of this can reveal some surprising shifts over the course of one's life.  I'm curious to see what others think now of this question.  Lots of highly potent thinkers here and passionate people, I love both. 

I ask in sincere interest, but not in seriousness.  I try to engage in life playfully, yet sincerely.  It's just a conversation.  And I operate from a position of 'while I may have discovered a truth, it is never 'the' truth.  So with no need to convince anyone of anything and with no interest in selling my sense of it as the one correct perspective... out of curiosity...

What are the transitional elements involved in a thought becoming a belief?

What makes a belief not just another thought?

 

For me it seems to revolve around a notion of questionability, or non-questionability.  Beliefs seem to be thoughts that become imbued with an unquestionable essence, either through Truth by Consensus ("everyone" knows it) , or simple familiarity ( it's cultural background info, that has never been questioned), or perhaps based on sense of Truth (through direct experience that renders further questioning irrelevant).

 

As a secondary question.  What does it take for beliefs to be demoted to thoughts?

For the record, I am into open ranging conversations exploring a concept kind of like chewing a bone, one moves around it a bit to get all the best bits covered.  So I don't mind some meandering into related side topics at all.

 

 

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XenoFish
8 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

So what makes a thought into a belief?

When you believe what you think due to the emotions involved or the sheer repetition of those thoughts.

9 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

What does it take for beliefs to be demoted to thoughts?

When hopefully facts prove beliefs wrong. Or a contradiction of thought occurs. 

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sci-nerd

I have struggled with this myself. The brain wants to believe. It's easier to settle on an ontology, than to hover over several options. But I have resisted it successfully.

Figuratively one could say I have parked my car in the middle between them, constantly looking to each side, deciding if I need to move it.

It's not easy operating reality like that. It takes will and determination. A will I don't see with neither religious people nor physicists.

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XenoFish

How we form beliefs. Might be an interesting read to some.

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Kismit

I take it this is to do with spirituality and or skepticism. Because for me, I have lots of thoughts and I have things I want to believe in, but I struggle to fully manifest a belief in anything without evidence. That is where my personal stance in skeptics agnosticism sits permanently.

 I can believe that I stick to the Earth when I walk, I would like to believe I could fly, and sometimes I think that I can. 

In that case evidence generally presents itself that my body is fragile. Something that as I age becomes more firmly a belief.

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Habitat

It is quite right not to "believe" without some kind of evidence, but equally it is wrong to disbelieve because there is no evidence that has come your way, and that applies to all walks of life.

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Kismit
19 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It is quite right not to "believe" without some kind of evidence, but equally it is wrong to disbelieve because there is no evidence that has come your way, and that applies to all walks of life.

That’s when you have to be open enough to ask questions, that’s the sceptical part.   To present yourself with evidence. Some people forget that the questions are not used to disprove, and that they should be aimed to understand 

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XenoFish
58 minutes ago, Kismit said:

I take it this is to do with spirituality and or skepticism. Because for me, I have lots of thoughts and I have things I want to believe in, but I struggle to fully manifest a belief in anything without evidence. That is where my personal stance in skeptics agnosticism sits permanently.

 I can believe that I stick to the Earth when I walk, I would like to believe I could fly, and sometimes I think that I can. 

In that case evidence generally presents itself that my body is fragile. Something that as I age becomes more firmly a belief.

I think it would depend on if the belief in question can be well, tested. In some cases just a bit of playful imagination doesn't hurt. But if you believe you can fly and decided to jump off a bridge to test this, I would recommend reevaluation said belief (not you directly). A belief in ghost is just one based on faith, which is an assumption towards a possible "truth", despite nothing conclusive to back it. Same for all spiritual things. 

Off topic but I'm curious as to the exact trigger from intention to action myself. 

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psyche101

beliefs-dont-change-facts-facts-if-youre

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quiXilver

The notion of how thought becomes elevated to belief seems related to me, in how regular everyday objects become cherished posessions.

Our perception imbues the notion, or object with meaning that is utterly private, personal... even when it's source is our societal conditioning, our experience of it is utterly personal.  Perhaps this is why we defend such things so vehemently.

Mis-identification of self with idea or object.  When the notion is revealed as non-factual, when the object shatters, we feel a part of us is under attack, at risk and our instinctual defenses rise in response before logic can intercede.

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Porkncheese

I thought about this a while back and concluded that belief comes mostly from feelings and thought comes from thinking.

Therefore i rate thought higher than belief. Being just a thought im open to other suggestions. Believers aren't.

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Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
On 05/06/2019 at 12:56 PM, psyche101 said:

beliefs-dont-change-facts-facts-if-youre

lol Believe your wife /husband/significant other, is unfaithful, and it will change many  facts about your life.

Plus belief, because of its physiological and  psychological benefits on the human body, changes the health, well being and lifespan of humans.   

Acting on a belief has changed facts or realities for millennia

Finally, why on earth would you chose a stand up comedian as a source of wisdom? :)  

and significantly, beliefs exist independent of facts.

Indeed one can neither believe nor  disbelieve, if one has sufficient knowledge /evidence, to know.

So knowledge might eliminate a belief but it can't change one 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Liquid Gardens
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Finally, why on earth would you chose a stand up comedian as a source of wisdom?

Because comedians are typically intelligent people and because good comedy is difficult, far more difficult than repeating what is in a holy book.  Speaking of holy books, never heard of, 'out of the mouths of babes...'?  

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

So knowledge might eliminate a belief but it can't change one 

That's not correct, beliefs change with new knowledge all the time.  Most beliefs don't exist 'independent' of facts, most rational people incorporate facts into their beliefs and ensure their beliefs don't conflict with those facts.

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XenoFish
On 6/26/2019 at 3:03 PM, Porkncheese said:

I thought about this a while back and concluded that belief comes mostly from feelings and thought comes from thinking.

Therefore i rate thought higher than belief. Being just a thought im open to other suggestions. Believers aren't.

You could say that beliefs are emotion based thoughts. 

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Rlyeh

When you become so invested in a thought, you refuse to accept anything else.  Irrational beliefs like Creationism and The Flat Earth are perfect examples of this, advocates admit they will not accept evidence to the contrary because they sunk so much money and time into their beliefs.

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quiXilver
Quote

Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove. And if the Thinker thinks passionately enough, the Prover will prove the thought so conclusively that you will never talk a person out of such a belief, even if it is something as remarkable as the notion that there is a gaseous vertebrate of astronomical heft (" GOD ") who will spend all eternity torturing people who do not believe in his religion. - Robert Anton Wilson

 

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