Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
quiXilver

When does thought transition to belief?

1,602 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

psyche101

Thoughts are thoughts and beliefs are decisions. 

You can think about unicorns and manbwarpig without believing them. 

One can choose to follow a religion that appeals to them or one can do hard yards and study. One can do both

There's no rule. Belief is a conscious progression (or regression) of thought. 

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Jodie.Lynne
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Accuracy is not so important as personal  knowledge

That is an interesting outlook.

I suppose that would explain anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers....

  • Like 1
  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
danydandan
17 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

That is an interesting outlook.

I suppose that would explain anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers....

It's a bloody idiotic statement made by an apparent teacher.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens
7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You changed your belief based on  other beliefs, not on any knowledge you had. Ie you didn't KNOW it was faked, you chose to believe it was .

You don't know that, you don't decide what knowledge is for anyone else, only for yourself, and you can't seem to keep the propositions and facts straight.  The belief is that it is faked; the knowledge is that Patterson was in the woods with a camera to shoot a Bigfoot documentary.  Thus, knowledge changed my belief.

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I started off by explaining how beliefs can be shaped by knowledge.

Actually you started by incorrectly asserting that knowledge can't change a belief; from the above it sounds like you're on the right path to understanding why that statement is wrong.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol I nearly added in my post  "but of course you cannot believe this " 

That is your problem and flaw, and failure to accept reality, not mine   

You are entitled to believe as you will, but not to make  your belief a statement of fact,  when it is not  What you can offer is a belief /opinion based on your own lack of contact experiences and (I believe ) a deep fear that such a being might exist, all around you  You don't much like peole in your life telling you what to do or how to behave, so guess the idea of a god is especially annoying.  In your mind  It might prove critical and  judgemental, like many of those in your childhood  (as you have explained in many posts over the years)   

i have 60 years and a book's worth of contact experiences, so it is much much more than just a single pillar of light.

My wife and i would have died several times, without the direct physical and verbal intervention of this entity.   

A light beam that talks and removes addiction is not reality, you choose to believe this on your own authority at best this demonstrates your low level of critical thinking and application, A belief is justified based on several things: the weight of the evidence, ones’s accounting for bias, allowing room for cognitive error, etc.etc a strong critical thinker tends to defend any argument based on a thorough process of research, plausibility factor and a firm understanding of the subject matter based on the reasoning the supports it and the avaialble evidence, hence knowledge would be the process of seeking a reasonable conclusion for the evaluations we all come to and conclusions would stand on the relevant evidence. 

Evidence is the crucial point, you have none, like your invisible furby dragon your hypothesis is pseudo woo, it will require observational evidence to change that  a light beam is really a god and performs magic, thus, far you have an imagined tale.

A woo story bro. 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Golden Duck
16 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

...

Well I was just offering a means of scientific method that we could demonstrate and prove as accurate and having experienced although admittedly my end of the tape is being held under the leg of the chair in the pub I'm sitting in while you climb up there with the smart end of the tape measure.:tu:

...

I see what you did there; but, Walker's teetotal, isn't he? He probably wouldn't stay for too long.

But, I just wanted to add, that I'm sure I remember learning trigonometry in high-school; and, question such as "what is the height" were pretty common. That was before the public had access to GPS.

Edited by Golden Duck
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

A light beam that talks and removes addiction is not reality, you choose to believe this on your own authority at best this demonstrates your low level of critical thinking and application, A belief is justified based on several things: the weight of the evidence, ones’s accounting for bias, allowing room for cognitive error, etc.etc a strong critical thinker tends to defend any argument based on a thorough process of research, plausibility factor and a firm understanding of the subject matter based on the reasoning the supports it and the avaialble evidence, hence knowledge would be the process of seeking a reasonable conclusion for the evaluations we all come to and conclusions would stand on the relevant evidence. 

Evidence is the crucial point, you have none, like your invisible furby dragon your hypothesis is pseudo woo, it will require observational evidence to change that  a light beam is really a god and performs magic, thus, far you have an imagined tale.

A woo story bro. 

So I thought, too, until I read this. Coupled with the artifice of subliminal suggestion, who knows?

https://www.livescience.com/64619-laser-sound-beam.html

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
17 hours ago, eight bits said:

That's not the "English" standard of civilian criminal guilt (seen in the UK, but also in systems descended from the same ancestral form, e.g. those of USA, Canada and Australia). Beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard, and  on its face the phrase admits the possibility of being wrong. A typical jury instruction on the meaning of the phrase specifically addresses scrupulous doubt, the awareness of the juror that he or she cannot know the guilt of anyone else in any strict sense of knowing. The juror is instructed to overlook that inevitable aspect of the human condition.

(If the juror were in a position to "know" something specifically relevant, being a witness of some kind, then they would have been excluded from the jury.)

It may well be true that real-life jurors interpret their instructions as high confidence that the accused is guilty. That's not the standard, either, since the object of evaluation is not one's opinion about the in-principle unknowable facts of the matter, but rather the quality of the prosecution's case for the guilt of the defendant.

The reason why the rules are what they are reflects a trade-off between the purpose of punishing crminals and the purpose of protecting non-criminals from punishment - even protecting criminals from being punished except for things they actually did. The aphorism is better a thousand guilty people go free than one innocent person be punished. That's not descriptively realistic of the actual operation of the criminal justice system in real life, but it does show awareness of the need for a trade-off.

Based on your posting history, you don't appreciate the necessity for trade-offs in many situations, and responsible jury duty turns out to be yet another of those situations.

I gave my opinion.

A person is innocent until proven guilty.

I would require convincing evidences that they were guilty ie beyond any reasonable doubt in my own mind. For that i would have to use knowledge, not belief.

I would be happy to use strong justified true belief rather than personal  knowledge  but the evidences would have to be overwhelming or the accused should go free  

No I do not believe in compromise on issues of moral or ethical significance  Some things are so right, or so wrong, that there is no room for compromise  Minor things can be compromised but not a persons life.

Becsue I am not on the Australian electoral roll (I am a conscientious objector to compulsory voting) I have never been asked to go on a jury.

  I would do so if required and be honest in my  answers to questions in pre trial vetting

I would judge according to the quality of evidences presented, but always with the presumption of innocence in the front of my mind  The prosecutor has to PROVE the case beyond what i find to be a reasonable doubt  Ie so I have no reasonable doubt about guilt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

That is an interesting outlook.

I suppose that would explain anti-vaxxers and flat-earthers....

No The argument began about the  precise height of MT Everest 

it is not so important to know that precise height to a millimetre, as it is to KNOW  from  personal  observation or recording approx how high it is  

Vaxers and flat earthers  cannot KNOW they are right because facts do not support them if the y observe the world.  I can know the earth is round  (oblate spheroid) from personal observation. I can know vaccinations work from personal experience 

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You don't know that, you don't decide what knowledge is for anyone else, only for yourself, and you can't seem to keep the propositions and facts straight.  The belief is that it is faked; the knowledge is that Patterson was in the woods with a camera to shoot a Bigfoot documentary.  Thus, knowledge changed my belief.

Actually you started by incorrectly asserting that knowledge can't change a belief; from the above it sounds like you're on the right path to understanding why that statement is wrong.

Nothing in your post said you KNEW the film was faked and i dont think you  could have Thus you gained no new knowledge  I maintain that knowledge cant change a belief although it may inform one.  That is because beliefs are constructed and maintained when there IS no knowledge  eg a  creationist can have all the " knowledge"  of science and still maintain a belief in creation.   

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

A light beam that talks and removes addiction is not reality, you choose to believe this on your own authority at best this demonstrates your low level of critical thinking and application, A belief is justified based on several things: the weight of the evidence, ones’s accounting for bias, allowing room for cognitive error, etc.etc a strong critical thinker tends to defend any argument based on a thorough process of research, plausibility factor and a firm understanding of the subject matter based on the reasoning the supports it and the avaialble evidence, hence knowledge would be the process of seeking a reasonable conclusion for the evaluations we all come to and conclusions would stand on the relevant evidence. 

Evidence is the crucial point, you have none, like your invisible furby dragon your hypothesis is pseudo woo, it will require observational evidence to change that  a light beam is really a god and performs magic, thus, far you have an imagined tale.

A woo story bro. 

The bolded bit is your belief and your opinion.  It happens to be wrong :)  It is just as real as you are .

All the rest of your criticism follows from  your  disbelief that this is possible.

What is real is real.

While we establish reality personally, from evidences, those evidences are usually not transferable.

And one person cant really prove anything to another who was not there at the time

I would really love to have you have such an experience where all the evidences proved it was real to you, but you couldn't convince anyone else it happened  :)   

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
4 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

I see what you did there; but, Walker's teetotal, isn't he? He probably wouldn't stay for too long.

But, I just wanted to add, that I'm sure I remember learning trigonometry in high-school; and, question such as "what is the height" were pretty common. That was before the public had access to GPS.

Hi Golden Duck

Yes but I should make note that that is why I am holding the idiot end of the tape.:lol:

Not much different than calculating charges, timers and degrees for the old howitzers I used to play with. Besides all the pretty girls will be at the pub and Walker who is immune to women and booze would be useless at my end of the tape., I would likely recruit a couple of assistants to sit on my lap to help hold the tape firmly under my chair leg,:) 

jmccr8

  • Haha 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Golden Duck
6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Golden Duck

Yes but I should make note that that is why I am holding the idiot end of the tape.:lol:

Not much different than calculating charges, timers and degrees for the old howitzers I used to play with. Besides all the pretty girls will be at the pub and Walker who is immune to women and booze would be useless at my end of the tape., I would likely recruit a couple of assistants to sit on my lap to help hold the tape firmly under my chair leg,:) 

jmccr8

That sounds like a long tape they need to hold.

carry-on-abroad_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqY-uzWr

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I would require convincing evidences that they were guilty ie beyond any reasonable doubt in my own mind. For that i would have to use knowledge, not belief.

Hi Walker

Will address your replies to other posts later but am on the desktop and not the phone so I am starting here

When I was younger I used to go and sit in on trials in my spare time because I was fascinated by how procedure works and was fortunate enough to know one of the top 10 lawyers in N.America at the time and it was beautiful to watch Morris work.

I realized that I was not the kind of guy that could defend someone that I found offensive and took another route to making things right and sometimes I needed somebody like Morris to make things right for me(:whistle:) but for the most part was able represented myself with a with a certain degree of success but was in one instance ordrered not to represent myself by a judge because of the questions I posed but did do all the research and documentation with highlights and rebuttals for my lawyer that spent 5 minutes blowing it out the window after 2 years of mindfarts by the system.

You know what the difference between you am me is? you want to end you life thinking about your last adventure and I hope mine is what kills me.

jmccr8

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
11 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

That sounds like a long tape they need to hold.

carry-on-abroad_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqY-uzWr

Agreeably so.:innocent:

jmccr8

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
33 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Will address your replies to other posts later but am on the desktop and not the phone so I am starting here

When I was younger I used to go and sit in on trials in my spare time because I was fascinated by how procedure works and was fortunate enough to know one of the top 10 lawyers in N.America at the time and it was beautiful to watch Morris work.

I realized that I was not the kind of guy that could defend someone that I found offensive and took another route to making things right and sometimes I needed somebody like Morris to make things right for me(:whistle:) but for the most part was able represented myself with a with a certain degree of success but was in one instance ordrered not to represent myself by a judge because of the questions I posed but did do all the research and documentation with highlights and rebuttals for my lawyer that spent 5 minutes blowing it out the window after 2 years of mindfarts by the system.

You know what the difference between you am me is? you want to end you life thinking about your last adventure and I hope mine is what kills me.

jmccr8

Interesting (seriously) 

but i dont want to end my life at all :) 

It continues to be one big roller coaster of an adventure. 

Never had to go to court and hopefully never will. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
5 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

I see what you did there; but, Walker's teetotal, isn't he? He probably wouldn't stay for too long.

But, I just wanted to add, that I'm sure I remember learning trigonometry in high-school; and, question such as "what is the height" were pretty common. That was before the public had access to GPS.

Running a tape up Everest wouldn't give its height. any way.  unless you knew the base length and measured a couple of angles  :) 

I spend quite a bit of time in pubs, for a variety of reasons, but yes  my drink of choice is no- sugar coke, or lemon squash with lots of ice.

 Ah trig tables, and slide rules, Latin and real grammar/ spelling etc.

Them was the days. :) 

  Electronic calculators were the beginning of  end of the world as we knew it  (and were actually banned in schools for years, as a lazy way of operating  ) 

Edited by Mr Walker
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
22 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Running a tape up Everest wouldn't give its height. any way.  unless you knew the base length and measured a couple of angles  :) 

I spend quite a bit of time in pubs, for a variety of reasons, but yes  my drink of choice is no- sugar coke, or lemon squash with lots of ice.

 Ah trig tables, and slide rules, Latin and real grammar/ spelling etc.

Them was the days. :) 

  Electronic calculators were the beginning of  end of the world as we knew it  (and were actually banned in schools for years, as a lazy way of operating  ) 

Walker

I love how you take it so personally, it was not intened as a demark against you and yet you took it personally. We have different skills and outlooks does that scare you? I have taught many students many things and done what I could to help them safe, do you stand in judgment of me> If so by what authority?

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
spulling
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
35 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Interesting (seriously) 

Hi Walker

Only in Canada? Pity,... red rose tea. If you wish to explore some topics PM me as I will not discuss some topics in this venue nor with some members and you are an exception to the rule so I want to demonstrate to members like Habbie that  i AM OPEN TO DISCUSSION WITHIN FORUM POLICY.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Walker

I love how you take it so personally, it was not intened as a demark against you and yet you took it personally. We have different skills and outlooks does that scare you? I have taught many students many things and done what I could to help them safe, do you stand in judgment of me> If so by what authority?

jmccr8

lol That is not taking it personally, just seriously  :) 

No i dont stand in judgement of you (except that I judge that i would like you, if i met you ) :) 

I never felt you intended any criticism  of me.

I dont quite get some of your points sometimes, but i always answer every post seriously. However, there was humour in my last post as the smiley is meant to indicate. 

I found your suggestions amusing and realised the y were not meant to be taken seriously.

However i would let you scale the peak, given you are younger and more fit than i am :) I will stay in the pub chat up the bar girls,  win a few dollars at pool and darts, and drink iced coke, while you do the hard yards :)  

Then i will read your book on your conquest :) 

 

 

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jmccr8
36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol That is not taking it personally, just seriously  :) 

Hi Walker

Thanks for breaking the ice in front of everyone a lot of people think we don't like each other and shows that we can have a productive exchange even with opposing views which has been the mainstay of why we are here.

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

No i dont stand in judgement of you (except that I judge that i would like you, if i met you ) :) 

See I told you that a couple of years ago and now we are drinking  buddies, does your tea need a top up I knoe

w that that is a fine bottom on my drinking glasses and as I can see it quite clearly now that it is empty.:whistle:

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I never felt you intended any criticism  of me

Because you spend the time to have an opinion and argue it to the best of your abilitb you have always been welccome around the firepit even if you feel like the next log in:lol: 

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I never felt you intended any criticism  of me

Thanks but I do critIque your positions which is what makes UM, UM.

 

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I dont quite get some of your points sometimes, but i always answer every post seriously. However, there was humour in my last post as the smiley is meant to indicate. 

You know it has taken a fair bit of effort over the years to get you to admit this.:)

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I never felt you intended any criticism  of me.

You know my intent is not to hurt people but to make them step out of themselves without reading fictional stories and make people recogonize that some of us made choices that not only affect our own lives but affect others. Hopefully in a constructive way.I am only right for me but what I share has value in the context that it exists and can be observed.

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I found your suggestions amusing and realised the y were not meant to be taken seriously.

Some of them should be taken seriously and understood that with the right perspective can pt can inpact their live in a predictable manner which would imply a certain accuracy in prediction of end result

37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

However i would let you scale the peak, given you are younger and more fit than i am :) I will stay in the pub chat up the bar girls,  win a few dollars at pool and darts, and drink iced coke, while you do the hard yards :) 

Nic come back but given the last years of interaction I would suggest that my skills in barmaids is somewhat more diverse than yours and given that we are ar away from home in a strange lang my skills on ground zero are essential to the success of the inquiry thanks for the offer but this is my field of expertise and I am willing to let you take all scholastic recognition:tu:

55 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Then i will read your book on your conquest :) 

Because my life is such as it is I could never write a book, secrets and pacts are what they are but doors open for some at the right time be it victory or vengeance, life deals cards we play them and me not being a gambler in that sense makes me a constant

jmccr8

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
49 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

Thanks for breaking the ice in front of everyone a lot of people think we don't like each other and shows that we can have a productive exchange even with opposing views which has been the mainstay of why we are here.

See I told you that a couple of years ago and now we are drinking  buddies, does your tea need a top up I knoe

w that that is a fine bottom on my drinking glasses and as I can see it quite clearly now that it is empty.:whistle:

Because you spend the time to have an opinion and argue it to the best of your abilitb you have always been welccome around the firepit even if you feel like the next log in:lol: 

Thanks but I do critIque your positions which is what makes UM, UM.

 

You know it has taken a fair bit of effort over the years to get you to admit this.:)

You know my intent is not to hurt people but to make them step out of themselves without reading fictional stories and make people recogonize that some of us made choices that not only affect our own lives but affect others. Hopefully in a constructive way.I am only right for me but what I share has value in the context that it exists and can be observed.

Some of them should be taken seriously and understood that with the right perspective can pt can inpact their live in a predictable manner which would imply a certain accuracy in prediction of end result

Nic come back but given the last years of interaction I would suggest that my skills in barmaids is somewhat more diverse than yours and given that we are ar away from home in a strange lang my skills on ground zero are essential to the success of the inquiry thanks for the offer but this is my field of expertise and I am willing to let you take all scholastic recognition:tu:

Because my life is such as it is I could never write a book, secrets and pacts are what they are but doors open for some at the right time be it victory or vengeance, life deals cards we play them and me not being a gambler in that sense makes me a constant

jmccr8

Ok I will write the book of your adventures :) and make up stuff where necessary 

 Actually, if I do say so myself,  Ii have a good " line in chat"  because  i actually like and respect people including women, and am very interested in them as people

Two of my ex- students (both women) own and run the local pub, with the help of their mother.  80% of the staff is female.  I spend about 10  -12   hours a week in there, socialising, having a coffee or soft drink, and often buying our tea.

My chat is non sexual but  revolves around their (and my)  lives, families, work  etc.

It is not a busy pub for much of the day, so we all enjoy the conversations  

https://www.facebook.com/cummins.hotel/

7 of us had a great lunch there on Tuesday for my twin sister in laws 80th birthdays 

I do take some of your posts seriously, but i meant that the one about measuring Everest, I did not. 

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Interesting (seriously) 

but i dont want to end my life at all :) 

It continues to be one big roller coaster of an adventure. 

Never had to go to court and hopefully never will. 

I think he is trying to say you have not really lived, just imagined you have. 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I think he is trying to say you have not really lived, just imagined you have. 

He never suggested that my life consisted of imagined adventures at all.

If he has a point, it is that I  am glad I lived my life fully and vicariously, and even dangerously at  times.

It DOES  give me something to look back on as I get too old  for such physical feats  as abseiling, cave exploration, and a variety of sports  

However i continue to face and enjoy new challenges every day.

Most are not as strenuous as they once were, but  they keep my mind active and young.   (and are often part of my life with younger people, from kids to young adults) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Ok I will write the book of your adventures :) and make up stuff where necessary 

 Actually, if I do say so myself,  Ii have a good " line in chat"  because  i actually like and respect people including women, and am very interested in them as people

Two of my ex- students (both women) own and run the local pub, with the help of their mother.  80% of the staff is female.  I spend about 10  -12   hours a week in there, socialising, having a coffee or soft drink, and often buying our tea.

My chat is non sexual but  revolves around their (and my)  lives, families, work  etc.

It is not a busy pub for much of the day, so we all enjoy the conversations  

https://www.facebook.com/cummins.hotel/

7 of us had a great lunch there on Tuesday for my twin sister in laws 80th birthdays 

I do take some of your posts seriously, but i meant that the one about measuring Everest, I did not. 

I think Jay would do circles around you on any given day or era when it comes to charming women, based off this post.

And, I don’t think you would need to make up a whole lot about his life. :P

Edited by Sherapy
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.