When does thought transition to belief?

[+Liquid Gardens]

10 hours ago, Habitat said:

Critical thinking is something I apply, and it leads me to the sobering conclusion that there is an intent, and a capability, to evade inspection, by these phenomena. And that causes me to suspect the UFO phenomena is from the same stable. It may hurt our pride to imagine we can be thwarted in this way, but from my perspective, it is an inescapable conclusion.

The intent to evade inspection is exactly what we would expect from something that doesn't actually exist.  I don't think you've thought critically enough about these things.

10 hours ago, Habitat said:

Simple, I bloody well know it is a fact, that is the difference in my perspective,

Well then we 'know' you're wrong; you're right, that is simple.  Also noted that psychological motivations are not something you are examining concerning yourself and your beliefs, just, conveniently, others.  Not a good sign that you're applying critical thinking when you apply different arguments and standards to the things you want to be true compared to those who disagree.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Liquid Gardens

[+Sherapy]

On 10/7/2019 at 4:52 PM, Habitat said:

The hypothesis, presumably, what else ? Settled matters are not put to the test, except for demonstration purposes. What is not settled, involves doubt, and if we take the extreme view that propositions are only provisionally "proven" in science, then doubt is part and parcel of science.

We don’t doubt a hypothesis we test it. 

[+Sherapy]

13 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

The intent to evade inspection is exactly what we would expect from something that doesn't actually exist.  I don't think you've thought critically enough about these things.

Well then we 'know' we're wrong; you're right, that is simple.  Also noted that psychological motivations are not something you are examining concerning yourself and your beliefs, just, conveniently, others.  Not a good sign that you're applying critical thinking when you apply different arguments and standards to the things you want to be true compared to those who disagree.

Recently a coworkers dad died and as of late she has been telling me stories of how she thinks her Dad is visiting her from beyond and looking out for her. A door that was typically locked wasn’t one day stuff like that. The only thing is she isn’t insisting I believe her, or this actually is real she has commented that she knows she sounds crazy she knows that these things don’t happen. I told her that it is not uncommon during grief to imagine things, and for her not to be to hard on herself she misses her dad. It’s part of the grieving process, what matters is she feels connected to the dad she misses. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Liquid Gardens]

25 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Recently a coworkers dad died and as of late she has been telling me stories of how she thinks her Dad is visiting her from beyond and looking out for her. A door that was typically locked wasn’t one day stuff like that. The only thing is she isn’t insisting I believe her, or this actually is real she has commented that she knows she sounds crazy she knows that these things don’t happen. I told her that it is not uncommon during grief to imagine things, and for her not to be to hard on herself she misses her dad. It’s part of the grieving process, what matters is she feels connected to the dad she misses. 

And I'm all for people finding meaning and comfort in these kinds of things, I do it too to an extent, they can even say they 'know' it's true and join billions of religious people who also know things that I don't think they can know.  But they know it's true and try to protect that belief by making hypocritical and negative assumptions about the psyche of those who disagree?  That's going to earn a response here.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

And I'm all for people finding meaning and comfort in these kinds of things, I do it too to an extent, they can even say they 'know' it's true and join billions of religious people who also know things that I don't think they can know.  But they know it's true and try to protect that belief by making hypocritical and negative assumptions about the psyche of those who disagree?  That's going to earn a response here.

We all have personal truths about many things--but that's the rub--they're personal. They can be described to others, but never truly shared. Respected by others, without the necessity of belief. 

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

We all have personal truths about many things--but that's the rub--they're personal. They can be described to others, but never truly shared. Respected by others, without the necessity of belief. 

Love this!

 

[XenoFish]

4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

We all have personal truths about many things--but that's the rub--they're personal. They can be described to others, but never truly shared. Respected by others, without the necessity of belief. 

Which makes most of these arguments rather pointless. I mean unless someone is stating something as fact, when it's unlikely to be true. Still. It's a personal thing. 

[+Hammerclaw]

20 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Which makes most of these arguments rather pointless. I mean unless someone is stating something as fact, when it's unlikely to be true. Still. It's a personal thing. 

Indeed it does, which is why I eschew most of them, now. Some obsess with trying to convert others to their way of thinking, their point of view. It's an exercise in futility. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Indeed it does, which is why I eschew most of them, now. Some obsess with trying to convert others to their way of thinking, their point of view. It's an exercise in futility. 

I'm honestly growing bored of trying to convince anyone of anything. At most I'd like to discuss the personal motivations behind a belief, the benefits (if any), how it affects their lives, etc. But, I feel like such discussion always devolve into "I'm right, you're wrong." over needless things. Meh, blame my boredom. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

I'm honestly growing bored of trying to convince anyone of anything. At most I'd like to discuss the personal motivations behind a belief, the benefits (if any), how it affects their lives, etc. But, I feel like such discussion always devolve into "I'm right, you're wrong." over needless things. Meh, blame my boredom. 

Just state what we think or feel and let others come to their own conclusions, is the best way. We can't make up their minds for them.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Just state what we think or feel and let others come to their own conclusions, is the best way. We can't make up their minds for them.

People will believe what they wish to believe, because they want to believe in it.

I often repeat that statement around here. Seems like the only philosophical truth there is.

[+Sherapy]

47 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Which makes most of these arguments rather pointless. I mean unless someone is stating something as fact, when it's unlikely to be true. Still. It's a personal thing. 

Exactly, other than to share the personal value or wisdom gleaned. 

I also do not see the reason for insisting something is true with no facts to support it, to the point of being angry and hostile it can’t be that serious. Why do you think this is?

My coworker for instance, her sharing that she thinks her dad has come back from the beyond to look out for her makes sense in the context of grief and in sharing it opened a way for her to talk about how much she misses her dad. 

I never had to accept that I too think her dad is a ghost now, in fact, I told her a part of me would need evidence, after she said she does not believe in ghosts, either. I told her that on a personal level it is interesting and I love hearing about it and thanks for sharing. We weren’t going round and round on the plausibility of ghosts, we were talking about how much she missed her dad. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Indeed it does, which is why I eschew most of them, now. Some obsess with trying to convert others to their way of thinking, their point of view. It's an exercise in futility. 

What I find striking is the focus on these personal claims is not about the impact or value, or wisdom gleaned, or a desire to share one’s humanness, or to connect to others. 

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Sherapy said:

What I find striking is the focus on these personal claims is not about the impact or value, or wisdom gleaned, or a desire to share one’s humanness, or to connect to others. 

 

 

Wisdom and knowledge are taught; belief and irrationalism are preached. You can question teachings, but sermons are inviolate.

[+Sherapy]

24 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Wisdom and knowledge are taught; belief and irrationalism are preached. You can question teachings, but sermons are inviolate.

Do you think it is preaching when one focuses on the claim as an actual reality when there are no facts to support it. That somehow the sell is that some humans are privy to information no one else has and it is their duty to share it. For me, this is a cult like mentality. 

This isn’t typical for everyone who believes in god either. 

Stubbs is not like that, neither are you, or guyver, or die checker, simply Bill.

Anyway it does intrigue me,

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

45 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Just state what we think or feel and let others come to their own conclusions, is the best way. We can't make up their minds for them.

Truthfully, most people share personal experiences in a way that make it clear that this is only their take.

In my experience, many folks preface their personal experiences with I am not saying this is true but I think, or for me, this is etc. etc. etc.

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Hammerclaw]

13 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Do you think it is preaching when one focuses on the claim as an actual reality when there are no facts to support it. 

This isn’t typical for everyone who believes in god either. 

Stubbs is not like that, neither are you, or guyver, or die checker, simply Bill.

Anyway it does intrigue me,

 

Any time one enters the public sphere, espousing, loudly and at length, a belief unsupported by falsifiable fact, is a form of preaching or demagoguery. 

[+Sherapy]

4 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Any time one enters the public sphere, espousing, loudly and at length, a belief unsupported by falsifiable fact, is a form of preaching or demagoguery. 

Hmmm, interesting.

What is the point?

[+Hammerclaw]

19 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Hmmm, interesting.

What is the point?

Of teaching, imparting knowledge; of preaching, conversion and reinforcement of converts to belief. 

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Of teaching, imparting knowledge; of preaching, conversion and reinforcement of converts to belief. 

Maybe to just reinforce a persons beliefs, instead of a discussion it's just a personal affirmation. 

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe to just reinforce a persons beliefs, instead of a discussion it's just a personal affirmation. 

Undoubtedly and not the exclusive province religion, but shared by other irrationalism.

[+Sherapy]

3 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Of teaching, imparting knowledge; of preaching, conversion and reinforcement of converts to belief. 

 

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe to just reinforce a persons beliefs, instead of a discussion it's just a personal affirmation. 

Why would one need to keep affirming and reinforcing their personal beliefs? That is the part that draws a blank for me.

I wonder if it is their identity?

 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Sherapy said:

 

Why would one need to keep affirming and reinforcing their personal beliefs? That is the part that draws a blank for me.

I wonder if it is their identity?

 

They doubt what they believe on some level, maybe? Or they wish to further affirm a conviction they need. I've done that. 

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Of teaching, imparting knowledge; of preaching, conversion and reinforcement of converts to belief. 

 

I wonder if it is a way to cope with anxiety and the preaching serves as a coping mechanism?

 

[+Hammerclaw]

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

 

Why would one need to keep affirming and reinforcing their personal beliefs? That is the part that draws a blank for me.

I wonder if it is their identity?

 

Believers often require a support group to reinforce belief through communion. If they don't have one on hand, they try to create one.