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quiXilver

When does thought transition to belief?

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Sherapy
31 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Nothing wrong with true critical thinking which is evidence based AND keeps an open mind to ANY possibility (ie it does not discount anything as impossible before the thinking process begins) 

Satire is marginally humour because it has an educative and positive value and can be funny  

Ridicule does not. It is not primarily intended  to amuse, but to denigrate others. It has no redeeming social value as satire does, and is too unpleasant /destructive,  to be amusing. 

Why are you summarizing my post, lol.:P

Let me clarify. 
Critical thinking begins from an open position and follows the evidence, 

Rule of thumb is to pick the conclusion with the least amount of assumptions, or the best explanations  with what we know about known reality.

@eight bits any clarification from your end is valued. 

I ask him because he serves as a check and balances, I seek to post accurate information, not be righteous 

 

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Habitat
11 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

So does narcissism.  So does months-long obsessions with one particular 'observation'.  As long as we're playing pretend psychologist.

One ?  Well over a hundred, of varying kinds. The only interesting thing here, for me, is the resistance, not the resistance to accepting anecdotal reportage, which is OK by me, but the resistance to the possibility it might be true ! That is the realm of psychology.

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, quiXilver said:

The world as talked about, as thought about, is not the world as it is.

The qualities of the 'external' experiential world, depend entirely upon the methods of interaction, the organs by which we relate to and interpret the energies.  This process is interpretaional, individual and internal.

intriguing...  The Hermetics come to mind.  As above, so below.  As within, without.

 

The world as experienced through the senses is relational.  External energies, related to organs that relate with certain wavelengths and these impulses are transduced internally into what we call, our sensory experience of the external world.

The world as thought about, is internal.   Thoughts are not reality.  More akin to reflections.

 

 

As waking conscious mind is akin to awareness in a similar manner that the moon, is akin to actual light by reflecting light.  Reflecting awareness.  Thought is reflected relational interpreted interaction.

We don't consciously beat our hearts, digest our food, secrete hormones...  these are source awareness.

 

 

It is the eye that elicits the sensation of seeing when certain waves of energy interact and are then interpreted.

The ear elicits the experience of sound when a hand strikes the skin of a drum.

Yet without the relationship of hand, drum skin and ear... what is experiencable?

So is the world experienced the world as it is?

Is thought real?

 

This is both ancient and modern theory on the nature of reality However it misses the linked duality  of the human experience

What is real exists without human  existence or interaction (unless we made or altered it)  

Humans evolved, and exist, in the world as an integrated part of the world We are  evolved to perceive and respond to it in ways which enhance  our survival

So as our minds evolved we lerned wyas of perceiving our world which enhanced our survivabilty 

The world exists just as it is but each person perceives it through their own mind and the many filters in that mind (my mum explained this to me when i ws 3 or 4 years old)  e how we feel and what we think of things is determined in our mind, where we have conscious control. So we can learn how to perceive and respond in many different ways to the same thing or event.

Thought is real. It is a physical pattern of firing neurons and synapses which we learn to control and manipulate just as/like we learn to walk and talk. 

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Mr Walker
11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Why are you summarizing my post, lol.:P

Let me clarify. 
Critical thinking begins from an open position and follows the evidence, 

Rule of thumb is to pick the conclusion with the least amount of assumptions, or the best explanations  with what we know about known reality.

@eight bits any clarification from your end is valued. 

I ask him because he serves as a check and balances, I seek to post accurate information, not be righteous 

 

Yup so how come you have so much trouble doing it if you have got this right? You do NOT have an open position on many thngs.

There is one problem with your rule of thumb  It is just that, and depends on a complete and accurate knowldge base 

So to hark back to the old platypus principle

When the platypus was first found by Europeans, and even when its carcasses were  brought  to Europe,  European scientists maintained that it was a hoax.The y kept tha t position for decades 

Why?

Because they applied your rule of thumb.

Given their current knowldge and understanding of animals the platypus could not exist.

The most simple and logical answer (to them)  was not that evolution  under very different  conditions had produced this animal, but that it was the product of a number of pranksters.

  Evolutionary theory had not really been consolidated or accepted  by science at this time , although some pre Darwinian scientists were thinking along similar lines 

And indeed, given  the scientific understanding of the time, pranksters  WAS the simplest, most likely, answer  

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Habitat
29 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Critical thinking begins from an open position and follows the evidence, 

Rule of thumb is to pick the conclusion with the least amount of assumptions, or the best explanations  with what we know about known reality.

If there is a compelling need to decide, one might follow that prescription. What would oblige one to draw conclusions in this kind of "problem", other than uncomfortable doubts ?

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Mr Walker
12 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

It doesn't mean that at all.  You don't seem to realize that your sermons about how important these imaginary powers of yours are is inconsistent with your disinterest in even attempting to try to use them.  You brag about how you've supposedly 'saved' thousands of people but when it comes to 'something important', it's 'you're all on your own'.

So?  The rings of Saturn have a limited number of possible thicknesses, that your dream matched part of the thickness of the rings isn't remarkable, what were the odds, 1-2 or 1-3 or something similar?  I won $2500 in the lottery a long time ago, guess I'm clairvoyant.

So science is relevant?  Why do you ignore what science says about memory then?  Here's a reminder of the current state from wiki:

Memory is not a perfect processor, and is affected by many factors. The ways by which information is encoded, stored, and retrieved can all be corrupted. The amount of attention given new stimuli can diminish the amount of information that becomes encoded for storage.[2] Also, the storage process can become corrupted by physical damage to areas of the brain that are associated with memory storage, such as the hippocampus.[16][17] Finally, the retrieval of information from long-term memory can be disrupted because of decay within long-term memory.[2] Normal functioning, decay over time, and brain damage all affect the accuracy and capacity of the memory

Your angel story was from even further back then I thought, I think 40+ years.  I've also read that science has reason to believe that the more often a memory is retrieved the more susceptible it is to corruption, and you've retrieved these stories hundreds of times in just the last 5 years or so.  Yea, I know, science only matters when it agrees with you.

You are thinking through your eyes  i dont see it like tha t at  all 

In don't brag about saving thousands of children. My wife and i have done that as  part of our  duty as human beings  I would like to see others also help

The more paranormal skills are real and can be used  Ones like controlled lucid dreaming are even used in  psychology.

   speed reading and " eidetic" memory can be taught either in person or online and DO enhance many facets of a person's life, especially if that  life includes a lot of reading for work or pleasure. 

Your quote does NOT contradict what i claim 

Basically it appears that every human brain  stores everything it memorises.

  However if you dont concentrate,first on putting something into your short term memory, and then transferring it your long term memory it may not be stored.

Once stored, potentially any fact etc can be recalled.

  Many humans demonstrate this abilty of total recall  but most of us have a lesser skill/abilty.  It is a gradient or skill, from  people who have perfect recall of every minute of their lives and whole telephone books of names and numbers, down to peole who wake up in the morning with all memory gone

lol i dont have to rely on memory to recall the angel story I wrote it all down after it happened it was recorded in my psych evaluation and i told it numerous times to people. You can go back 14 years just here on UM and you wont find the details or basics have changed Ive explained a bit more as peole have asked questions about it but the basics remain the same   However science is  divided on this.

Some people believe memory is reconstructed every time you recall something. However one of Australia's  top neurologists on late night radio the other night was explaining the neurology behind memory  It actually exists within the neurons and synapses of your mind. You can recall things perfectly but you can also add in bits and pieces each time you tell a story Thats not faulty memory it is the mind expanding the narrative  The skill is learning how to do the former, and avoid the latter.  

Your mind is physically capable of memorising the bible or the new york telephone book  and repeating it perfectly from tha t memory The neurologist said that, at present, no limit has been discovered to the data which can be memorised and stored within a human brain.

   However recalling this data  requires learned  skill,and perhaps an unusual structure of the brain and its function  Studies are proceeding on this since we developed better ways of observing brain structure and function  

However anyone can significantly improve their memory with a few simple techniques 

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

No need t present evidences. 

Until you try something  you will never know if you can do it  If you want to know more about speed reading do some decent research on it and especially how JFK learned to do it and use it as president.

Speed reading does NOT necessarily  affect accuracy especially if you also train your memory But it has many everyday uses. it saves time becsue you can read anyhting in seconds then decide if t worth re reading for a more careful look 

I appreciate you aren't interested That doesnt  mean you couldn't do it but it would take time and effort 

The problem is your dismissal of the reality of speed reading and eidetic  memory.

  Of course you shouldn't tell anyone hallucinations are real you should be teaching them how to tel the difference. Here you are implying that my experiences are hallucinations.  The y are not, they are real physical experiences.

Except when under powerful painkillers in hospital i've never had an hallucination since i was a child.

And it is easy and simple to pick an hallucination even when they are caused by drugs 

Of course it depends on the quality of your dream life but ive done all thise things in controlled lucid dreams I've even train surfed on the top of the bullet train 

I get tastes sensations and all the quality of real life in my dreams. This forms memories which, 50 years later, are as real and vivid as memories of  living exciting moments in my life Plus there are no dangers no costs, no issues with travel and customs etc. 

After your travel all you have is memories.

Memories of my dreams are as complete and permanent as memories of my waking moments.

We also know tha t memories of both dreams and waking events, are identical in structure, and nature, in the brain. 

Thus my memories serve the same purpose as yours without any expense etc. 

Walls, you are completely wrong the part of the brain that imagines is separate from the part of the brain that experiences something. An experience is much more intense and implanted in the brain. It is almost impossible to talk someone out of their  experience. For example: this is why Schizophrenia is so difficult to treat. Imagining does not come close to the experience. 

 

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Habitat
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Imagining does not come close to the experience. 

Have you not had dreams, where the dream experience was as intense as real life experience ? How would that fit in this spectrum between imagination, and experience ? I think we need to be cautious in thinking everyone is the same , in their brain functions, I can't "imagine" on the same way as others, say musical composers.

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Sherapy
14 minutes ago, Habitat said:

If there is a compelling need to decide, one might follow that prescription. What would oblige one to draw conclusions in this kind of "problem", other than uncomfortable doubts ?

I think the compelling need is coming from the one who needs to be believed so desperately, I am not seeing where a case can be made for the person who isn’t making the claim. 

I am thinking your arm chair projections are dead on in the sense the person who makes the same claims over and over may need to be validated and believed it could be they struggle with uncertainty and fear their own mortality. It seems really anxiety driven to me when a person needs to persuade others with rationalizations incessantly it triggers their anxiety and the defense mechanisms kick in. The need to rationalize is the coping mechanism for anxiety spurred on by even considering that a light beam might not be god.  Just my two cents.

 

 

 

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Mr Walker
14 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Walls, you are completely wrong the part of the brain that imagines is separate from the part of the brain that experiences something. An experience is much more intense and implanted in the brain. It is almost impossible to talk someone out of their  experience. For example: this is why Schizophrenia is so difficult to treat. Imagining does not come close to the experience. 

 

read up  on  it. It is now believed that one of the basic purposes of dreaming is memory consolidation while another is growing linings on synapses which  enhance  learning . ie sleeping and dreaming physically  improve our brain, to improve our abilty to learn new skills.  

Heaven forfend that you should believe me 

Memory storage of dreams is identical to memory storage of real events  (In both process and structure )  hence the problems with false memories in criminal cases 

Maybe your dreams are not as real as your waking moments.

Mine are often indistinguishable in  quality a sensory input  which is why i developed reality checkers to do that job, while a still a child. 

Your argument actually supports what i am saying.

it is the identical nature of  inner/outer experiences and memories  which makes it hard for some people   with mental illness  to distinguish reality 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Sherapy
19 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Have you not had dreams, where the dream experience was as intense as real life experience ? How would that fit in this spectrum between imagination, and experience ? I think we need to be cautious in thinking everyone is the same , in their brain functions, I can't "imagine" on the same way as others, say musical composers.

Can you give an example before  I answer. Thank you.

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Habitat
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I think the compelling need is coming from the one who needs to be believed so desperately, I am not seeing where a case can be made for the person who isn’t making the claim. 

I am thinking your arm chair projections are dead on in the sense the person who makes the same claims over and over may need to be validated and believed it could be they struggle with uncertainty and fear their own mortality. It seems really anxiety driven to me when a person needs to persuade others with rationalizations incessantly it triggers their anxiety and the defense mechanisms kick in. The need to rationalize is the coping mechanism for anxiety spurred on by even considering that a light beam might not be god.  Just my two cents.

 

 

 

lol.....if I was looking for validation, or approval, or support, this would not be a suitable venue, On the other hand, were I looking for support of the opposite, well, there are plenty on the "team" who do that ! I'm sure if I was on some non-sceptical "spook" website, I would be welcomed like a long lost friend. So we can safely put that theory to bed.

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

read up  on  it.

Heaven forfend that you should believe me 

Memory storage of dreams is identical to memory storage of real events  (In both process and structure )  hence the problems with false memories in criminal cases 

Maybe your dreams are not as real as your waking moments.

Mine are often indistinguishable in  quality a sensory input  which is why i developed reality checkers to do that job, while a still a child. 

Your argument actually supports what i am saying.

it is the identical nature of  inner/outer experiences and memories  which makes it hard for some people   with mental illness  to distinguish reality 

 

 I did even better I asked the Neurologist I work for.

No offense Walker but you do not have the background to address this.

You were completely wrong, hun.

But, non the less it is a great question, thanks for asking it.

My Doc said it was a good question. I even gave you credit for it. :P

 

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Sherapy
5 minutes ago, Habitat said:

lol.....if I was looking for validation, or approval, or support, this would not be a suitable venue, On the other hand, were I looking for support of the opposite, well, there are plenty on the "team" who do that ! I'm sure if I was on some non-sceptical "spook" website, I would be welcomed like a long lost friend. So we can safely put that theory to bed.

I am not including you Habbie’s, I don’t think you need to be validated, or supported etc. I think you have had some interesting things happen and I don’t t find you to be insisting on an outcome at all. 
I hope you get a camera for the match sticks quite frankly. I commend you for trying to evidence.


 

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Sherapy
24 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Have you not had dreams, where the dream experience was as intense as real life experience ? How would that fit in this spectrum between imagination, and experience ? I think we need to be cautious in thinking everyone is the same , in their brain functions, I can't "imagine" on the same way as others, say musical composers.

That is a very good question, one I will ask because  I don’t know. 

Stay tuned.

I can’t think of any dreams that I have had that were better that the actual experience, yet did feel realistic. 


 

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Habitat
11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Can you one an example before  I answer. Thank you.

I'm not sure what you are querying, but I have had dreams as intense, or more intense, than "real-life" experience, in fact of dreams of being in peril or danger, much more intense. 

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Sherapy
6 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I'm not sure what you are querying, but I have had dreams as intense, or more intense, than "real-life" experience, in fact of dreams of being in peril or danger, much more intense. 

Like what, just asking?

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Habitat
4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

That is a very good question, one I will ask because  I don’t know. 

Stay tuned.

I can’t think of any dreams that I have had that were better that the actual experience, yet did feel realistic. 

 

I think the ability, or the tendency, probably varies a great deal from person to person. I have a brother who is the opposite of "never forgets a face", he routinely misidentifies people ! I seem not to have that particular limitation. But I think the powers of the mind to visualize and create drama, affection and disaffection, are every bit as real as that stimulated by "real" experience, because both are processed by the same brain.

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Sherapy
14 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I think the ability, or the tendency, probably varies a great deal from person to person. I have a brother who is the opposite of "never forgets a face", he routinely misidentifies people ! I seem not to have that particular limitation. But I think the powers of the mind to visualize and create drama, affection and disaffection, are every bit as real as that stimulated by "real" experience, because both are processed by the same brain.

Real life for me is intense, I try and have as many experiences as I can while I am alive. 

My dream life pales in comparison. Lol 

Me and Jay are similar on this we live like there is no tomorrow, I can’t sit around. I have to be in the trenches of experience. 

I just got home from Las Vegas with a 22 year old, talk about a whirlwind of experiences, zip lining I sat out. Just keeping up was intense.  Ha ha ha ha ha ha. 

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Habitat
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Real life for me is intense, I try and have as many experiences as I can while I am alive. 
My dream life pales in comparison. Lol 

I have a sister who claims she never dreams ! My counter to that, is that she possibly just forgets them. I think we have touched on something significant here, that there is a wide variation in the imaginative or fantasy life of individuals, and that gives rise to misunderstandings about behaviours, the person with a muted "inner world", is likely more apt to seek stimulation externally, and be rather more extroverted. I can recall many times in my life, that a powerful dream has left a strong emotional trace in me, for the following day. Maybe there are those, for whom that seems a strange oddity.

Edited by Habitat
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Hammerclaw

We almost always know when we're imagining,--unless we're delusional-- we're conscious and awake. Dreams are of sleep time, some remembered on awakening, some not. Dreams may influence imagination and imagination may influence dreams. In dreams the subconscious runs riot with the artefacts of imagination, memories, suppressed creative impulses, weaving stories and sagas, poetry and song, oft remembered and recorded. Some can seem astonishingly real, wondrous or frightening, joyful or poignantly sad, as when the dear parted pay us a visit in the halls of dream's illusions. Dreams are an intimate part of one's personal reality, ensconced and illuminated by the desire for them to be, the longing to see beyond life's horizons.

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Sherapy
3 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I have a sister who claims she never dreams ! My counter to that, is that she possibly just forgets them. I think we have touched on something significant here, that there is a wide variation in the imaginative or fantasy life of individuals, and that gives rise to misunderstandings about behaviours, the person with a muted "inner world", is likely more apt to seek stimulation externally, and be rather more extroverted. I can recall many times in my life, that a powerful dream has left a string emotional trace in me, for the following day. Maybe there are those, for whom that seems a strange oddity.

I am super extroverted too, and have a lot going on all the time. I do think you have a point. When I sleep, it is to rest from life. 
 

Has anyone seem the Joker yet? We are going tomorrow. 

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Habitat
11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

. I have to be in the trenches of experience. 

Yes, some are like that, I think the sensation-seeking type of personality, is well recognized. To them. others may appear as sticks-in-the-mud.

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Hammerclaw
2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I am super extroverted too, and have a lot going on all the time. I do think you have a point. When I sleep, it is to rest from life. 
 

 

You sleep like a baby, your dreams glide deeply beneath waters, placid and serene.

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