When does thought transition to belief?

[quiXilver]

I find I can address behavior and will often seek to inhibit, or alter behaviors I find violent.

But considering myself any kind of arbiter of what is the truth or reality that another has experienced and how they should verbally share what they intepret as their reality?  pfft

 

belief is thought.  A thought i've invested in as my experience of truth.

But it's a truth, all of it, not 'the truth'.

[Mr Walker]

21 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Yes, you have lived vicariously though your books or movies.

This has been your entertainment. 

If it serves you good for you. 

 

 

lol In part quite correct Anyone who does not read misses out on many worlds of experience, especially if the y are a good reader  But also its my dreams imagination etc which gives an inner depth and enjoyment to my life

Nonetheless this is only a piece of my life.

Every minute of every day is usually involved in doing something and has been since i was very young and so i also learned many many skills while at the same time using my mind eg to shear a sheep by hand or with  powered clippers,  to construct fences, repair electrical items in the house, paint, do carpentry, plumbing,  use a tractor, grow cut and store hay,  build and rebuild windmills, tractors etc  Ive planted orchards, vege. gardens, and wood lots, both for myself and for schools and communities.

  I can construct drip irrigation systems and maintain large and small scale watering systems. Plus of course all the sports and games. I've worked in retail in a pet shop and a florists.

ive earned good  money as a cleaner, groundsman and Amway distributor .

Last list i forgot to include golf, orienteering, geocaching, motor bike scrambling end many diverse water sports  

My parents went by the axioms of a healthy mind in a healthy body, build and use as many skills as you can, and never, ever, get bored. 

Dont you worry about me.

ive had an incredibly full, diverse, challenging and satisfying life, and enjoyed every moment of it ; even hand picking rocks, inhabited by tiger and brown snakes, to build up roads on our farm through swampy areas. I have de-tailed and de- balled sheep and calves, and had to dig graves for 12 pet sheep as they   grew old and died. ive walked thousands of miles of Australian outback and beaches, and built up quite a big shell collection.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

17 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Ah, the second installment of the Walker Chronicles mini-series is more serious and scary, titled The Relic Out of Time. It's about the Carnivorous Kangaroo, lurking in the Snowy Mountains. Preying on the unwary, it hibernates in Summer and emerges after the first snowfall in Winter, it's fur a snowy white. The locals call it, Tom Noddy. Time to break out the Fosters, crackers and vegemite!

Did i tell you about the time i took some year 8 s ( about 13/14 years old)  on a camp in the  Flinder's ranges.

We went on a hike to look at some aboriginal rock paintings, and a large kangaroo crossed our path. I told the kids just to walk quietly around it, but one indigenous lad said, "No way man  I will show you how my people deal with a kangaroo."

anyway he went up to scare it away  ( he might have even thrown some rocks at it ) The kangaroo remained in place, looking slightly bemused. The lad got right next to the kangaroo waving his arms a t it

The kangaroo stood up on it's tail and hind legs, until it was abut 2 metres tall, then just kick boxed the lad flat on his back. Only then did it saunter  away.

 I was tempted to say.  "Oh so THAT'S   how your people deal with  a kangaroo." but refrained   

Luckily only his pride was hurt.

They can rip your chest open if their claws are extended 

Ps albino kangaroos exist, and i have seen one in captivity but not in the wild. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, quiXilver said:

I find, perhaps due to the emerging experience of the unreliability of my own sensual intepretive process as objectively true, that I no longer feel diminished when another claims something that is not believable to me, or true for me and subsequently, I've lost any inertia or compulsion to try and dissuade them from their reality, their story.

 

We all make a story of our experience of reality.

Where I experience diminishment and a compulsion and natural inertia to respond, is in the face of violence, whether it's violent verbal attacks of people on an internet forum, or an in person confrontation.

But as for other's beliefs?  pfft, let them have them, like they have their love of dungeons and dragons, or their fandom or whatever little happiness they've managed to eek out in this world... within the bounds of non-violence... I have lost my appetite for attacking other's experience of reality, or bad mouthing, name calling, baiting/outright attacking folks.

 

it is a dark habit.  Nauseating.  Unworthy of more energy.

Not a bad policy but i am sorry to hear you are having trouble distinguishing  objective reality.

i was taught specific skills by both my parents and schools on how to do this.

I understand tha t some people find it hard. but I have no comprehension of WHY it could be difficult. if your senses and mind are working properly  (generic your) 

  It works both ways. You probably have trouble believing that my own powers of observation and perception  a re very accurate, while i cant understand how or why so many people seem to have difficulties with it 

[quiXilver]

Contrarily Walker.  Several of your abilites are familiar to me.  Though I confess I've only ever read a bare fraction of the massive amount of words you offer routinely.

My point is that if you assume your senses are the accurate arbiter of true reality.  You are deluded, suffering from a case of Naive Realism, which has been refuted since the time of the Stoics.

Your senses are partial and interpreted.  They are not accurate.

But I get that they are true for you, indeed, they are your reality.

But they are not 'the' reality... only your individual expression, just as is, everyone else's.

 

 

 

 

[Mr Walker]

58 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

Contrarily Walker.  Several of your abilites are familiar to me.  Though I confess I've only ever read a bare fraction of the massive amount of words you offer routinely.

My point is that if you assume your senses are the accurate arbiter of true reality.  You are deluded, suffering from a case of Naive Realism, which has been refuted since the time of the Stoics.

Your senses are partial and interpreted.  They are not accurate.

But I get that they are true for you, indeed, they are your reality.

But they are not 'the' reality... only your individual expression, just as is, everyone else's.

 

 

 

 

Not assume. i know from academic, medical, and  personal testing 

I have almost perfect visual observation, and perception and am often the only professional in a group of 100 or more who sees and perceives things accurately in tests where you are given only a second or so to observe.

   As a child, along with being taught to read and write from an early age i was taught how to observe and mentally record what i observed, both quickly and accurately  My father made it a form of game with us, and i think he got the idea from  some of Kipling's books. The games varied from  putting out a tray of objects for a couple of seconds then telling back what was on the tray immediately after and several hours after  , through observation and recall on road trips, to memorising and recalling poetry and pages of text. 

We also learned tracking, hunting, fishing ( including spear fishing with a simple sear)  and bush craft skills,  which all  required close observation and recall.

pLus of course I have studied history, anthropology, human cognition, and psychology so i know that, in reality humans are extremely well adapted to being able to accurately perceive and comprehend their environment (interestingly males are better at distance with movement while females are better close up with pattern recognition and abilty to distinguish details  (so it was women who were used in ww2 to see through camouflage used by enemy units, when analysing aerial photos  )

Reality is what would exist if no human was there to observe it ie it exists independent of a human  presence or observation 

Humans can, and do, apply subjective attitudes and skills to perceiving/interpreting that  reality but we can also learn to see and perceive it objectively, just as it is 

To illustrate my point. Put 100 humans in a room with one door. All will use the door to exit the building even if placed in it alone That is because there is a physical reality ,to which our minds are attuned, and our bodies are trained to respond. 

Its not naive realism which is flawed.

it is a human tendency to overthink the  issue.

The more advanced, civilized, or educated, a person is, the less the y are able to simply recognise and respond to the naive reality which is all around them   

[Habitat]

1 hour ago, quiXilver said:

Your senses are partial and interpreted.  They are not accurate.

Nor are they inaccurate, were it otherwise, rapid extinguishment would ensue, and the aged pension would be rarely claimed.

[+Sherapy]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol In part quite correct Anyone who does not read misses out on many worlds of experience, especially if the y are a good reader  But also its my dreams imagination etc which gives an inner depth and enjoyment to my life

Nonetheless this is only a piece of my life.

Every minute of every day is usually involved in doing something and has been since i was very young and so i also learned many many skills while at the same time using my mind eg to shear a sheep by hand or with  powered clippers,  to construct fences, repair electrical items in the house, paint, do carpentry, plumbing,  use a tractor, grow cut and store hay,  build and rebuild windmills, tractors etc  Ive planted orchards, vege. gardens, and wood lots, both for myself and for schools and communities.

  I can construct drip irrigation systems and maintain large and small scale watering systems. Plus of course all the sports and games. I've worked in retail in a pet shop and a florists.

ive earned good  money as a cleaner, groundsman and Amway distributor .

Last list i forgot to include golf, orienteering, geocaching, motor bike scrambling end many diverse water sports  

My parents went by the axioms of a healthy mind in a healthy body, build and use as many skills as you can, and never, ever, get bored. 

Dont you worry about me.

ive had an incredibly full, diverse, challenging and satisfying life, and enjoyed every moment of it ; even hand picking rocks, inhabited by tiger and brown snakes, to build up roads on our farm through swampy areas. I have de-tailed and de- balled sheep and calves, and had to dig graves for 12 pet sheep as they   grew old and died. ive walked thousands of miles of Australian outback and beaches, and built up quite a big shell collection.

Good for you, glad you have enjoyed your life. 

[+Sherapy]

5 hours ago, quiXilver said:

I find I can address behavior and will often seek to inhibit, or alter behaviors I find violent.

But considering myself any kind of arbiter of what is the truth or reality that another has experienced and how they should verbally share what they intepret as their reality?  pfft

 

belief is thought.  A thought i've invested in as my experience of truth.

But it's a truth, all of it, not 'the truth'.

I think I have asked you before, I notice you are from the  South Bay, what area? I am in the South Bay too. Hermosa Beach.

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Good for you, glad you have enjoyed your life. 

Well i couldn't have you feeling sorry for me, could I ?

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Well i couldn't have you feeling sorry for me, could I ?

Why would I feel sorry for you? 
 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Why would I feel sorry for you? 
 

 

your words

Yes, you have lived vicariously though your books or movies.

This has been your entertainment. 

If it serves you good for you. 

............................................................................

Good for you, glad you have enjoyed your life

.............................................................................

So you went from a sort of backhanded compliment about living vicariously (meaning, in your words, not actually living much  at all)  to a more  generous compliment 

Thus the detail i gave about my life might have prevented you from feeling sorry for a poor old coot who only lived vicariously through books and media  and dreams 

I have to admit i feel terribly sorry for any human who does not integrate reading, imagination, dreams etc, into their life along with lots of physical experiences 

It is because we are human that we need BOTH, to be complete, and to live rich and fulfilling lives . 

it might also be that you didnt really understand or use vicariously correctly 

it means

in a way that is experienced in the imagination through the actions of another person.

experienced as a result of watching, listening to, or reading about the activities of other people, rather than by doing the activities yourself:

so it is generally incorrect when applied to me    I tended to act out the things i read about, or later saw on tv 

Plus all my life i have done physically interesting active and challenging things Far more, it seems, than most people are lucky enough to have the time and resources to try.  

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Mr Walker

[quiXilver]

13 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I think I have asked you before, I notice you are from the  South Bay, what area? I am in the South Bay too. Hermosa Beach.

Yea, we spoke briefly about it some years back I recall.  My family and I live in Torrance.  We be neighbors!

[+Sherapy]

2 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Yea, we spoke briefly about it some years back I recall.  My family and I live in Torrance.  We be neighbors!

Yeah, that is right.

[quiXilver]

A quote regarding the nature of personal experience of reality by Alan Watts, in discussing the apparatus of sense and the interpretation of such sense by awareness.

on how perception is extrapolation

Quote

When we have the concepts of mind and matter, working separately, both are impoverished.  Mind becomes vague kind of a gas, psychic gas... and matter becomes... mere stuff.

But you see what has enabled us to make a transition is... first of all, above all I would say... two sciences, Biology and Neurology.  Because through Biology... and to some extent, Physics... the Method of Physics has shown us: That the idea that man can be the objective observer of an external world...  that is not himself;  so that as it were he can stand back from it and say, 'what is out there?'

We see that this cannot be done.  We can aproximately do it.

But we cannot really and fully do it for two reasons...
One. The most important reason.

The biologist will show us very clearly.  There is no way of definitively separating a human organism from its external environment.  The two are a single field of behavior.

And then further more... to observe something either by simply looking at it, or more so, by making experiments, by doing science on it... you alter what you're looking at.  You cannot carry out an observation without in some way interferring with what you observe.

To watch something it must not know you are looking.

And of course what you ultimately want to do, is to be able to watch yourself without knowing that you're looking.  Then you can really catch yourself, ah... not on your best behavior and see yourself as you really are...
but this can never be done...

and likewise
the physicist cannot simultaneously establish the position and velocity of very minute particles, or wavicles.  and it's in part because the experiment of observing nuclear behavior alters and affects what you're looking at.

This is one side of it.
The inseperability of man and his world which deflates the myth of the objective observer... standing aside and observing a world that is merely mechanical, a thing, that operates like a machine... 'out there'.  

The second is from the science of Neurology where we  understand so clearly now, taht the kind of world we see, is relative to the structure of the sense organ.  that in other words, what used to be called the qualities of teh external world, are possessed by it only in relation to a perceiving organ.  The very structure of our optical system, confers light and color upon outside energy.

And in this sense then, especially if you want to read a very easily digestible account of this thing, you get the book by J.Z. Yang called "Doubt and Certainty in Science".  

But you see here from a new basis altogether, we have a new answer to the old riddle: " If a tree falls in the forest when nobody is listening, does it make a noise?".

The answer in terms of modern science is perfectly clear.  That the falling tree creates vibratiosns in the air and these become noise if and only if, they relate to an ear drum and to an auditory nervous system.

Just as in ordinary drums... however hard you hit, will make no sound, if it has no skin.
... <snip>
 Perception is extrapolation...

edit to add:  for those interested, the above I transcribed from this lecture.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by quiXilver

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

your words

Yes, you have lived vicariously though your books or movies.

This has been your entertainment. 

If it serves you good for you. 

............................................................................

Good for you, glad you have enjoyed your life

.............................................................................

So you went from a sort of backhanded compliment about living vicariously (meaning, in your words, not actually living much  at all)  to a more  generous compliment 

Thus the detail i gave about my life might have prevented you from feeling sorry for a poor old coot who only lived vicariously through books and media  and dreams 

I have to admit i feel terribly sorry for any human who does not integrate reading, imagination, dreams etc, into their life along with lots of physical experiences 

It is because we are human that we need BOTH, to be complete, and to live rich and fulfilling lives . 

it might also be that you didnt really understand or use vicariously correctly 

it means

in a way that is experienced in the imagination through the actions of another person.

experienced as a result of watching, listening to, or reading about the activities of other people, rather than by doing the activities yourself:

so it is generally incorrect when applied to me    I tended to act out the things i read about, or later saw on tv 

Plus all my life i have done physically interesting active and challenging things Far more, it seems, than most people are lucky enough to have the time and resources to try.  

 

I am not sure how you reading books, and making pet rocks is relevant to the discussion. 
 

None the less, thank you for sharing and let me say  If your life brings you joy this is amazing news. 

You deserve happiness. I am not sure why you would see others as lacking in need of pity if they don’t choose the same way as you.

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Sherapy

[quiXilver]

can there be buying without there also, simultaneously being selling?

are there ever waves with only crests and no troughs?

 

observer and environment?

in a similar manner: can there be an organism without an environment, or environment without organisms?

organism and environment are 'of a thing'.

as are senses and experience of reality...

beliefs are thoughts... considered true by the one experiencing them...

but they are 'of a thing'... aspects of expression of one unified process...

the environment is comprised of the organisms and the organisms wholly make up the environment

 

are rainbows real for earthworms?

are rainbows real without color sensitive eyes?

the experience of reality, seems wholly dependent upon the nature of the organ interacting with vibrations...

without the structure of the organ, what transpires?  what can be said to exist?

we always experience existence, reality, truth... through our own individual process.

[quiXilver]

Just now, quiXilver said:

can there be buying without there also, simultaneously being selling?

are there ever waves with only crests and no troughs?

 

observer and environment?

in a similar manner: can there be an organism without an environment, or environment without organisms?

rainbows without eyes?

organism and environment are 'of a thing'.

as are senses and experience of reality...

beliefs are thoughts... considered true by the one experiencing them...

but they are 'of a thing'... aspects of expression of one unified process...

the environment is comprised of the organisms and the organisms wholly make up the environment

 

are rainbows real for earthworms?

are rainbows real without color sensitive eyes?

the experience of reality, seems wholly dependent upon the nature of the organ interacting with vibrations...

without the structure of the organ, what transpires?  what can be said to exist?

we always experience existence, reality, truth... through our own individual process.

 

[Crazy Horse]

On 10/6/2019 at 11:52 PM, quiXilver said:

Well said.  I find it utterly personal, where thought and belief cross.  It's utterly intimate with who it is 'i am'... within local awareness.

I find it similar with music and noise.  There are processes in nature and cities, for example that are melodic and musical for me, but this is not often shared it by others.  Music to me, noise to them.  As it is with beliefs and thoughts... personal, projective, based on thoughts and stimulus and run through the co-mingling nature of mind and constant revision/interpretation.  

 

 

 

And the constant revision/interpretation is to a large part down to our feelings, emotions and gut instinct.

I am guessing it is when the two, thoughts and feelings, are working in an harmonious and conscious effort - then the good stuff happens lol!!

[quiXilver]

6 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

And the constant revision/interpretation is to a large part down to our feelings, emotions and gut instinct.

I am guessing it is when the two, thoughts and feelings, are working in an harmonious and conscious effort - then the good stuff happens lol!!

Constant revision/interpretation based on feelings and gut... well said.

Baseline awareness... gut instinct.  I find I do not choose my feelings.  They arise in response to stimuli.  Much like thoughts.

I wonder.  Are there any voluntary beliefs?  Or are they rationalized explanations of what are inherently involuntary conditioned responses to stimuli, based on sub-conscious awareness?

[Mr Walker]

On 10/24/2019 at 6:58 AM, quiXilver said:

A quote regarding the nature of personal experience of reality by Alan Watts, in discussing the apparatus of sense and the interpretation of such sense by awareness.

on how perception is extrapolation

edit to add:  for those interested, the above I transcribed from this lecture.

 

Interesting.

it is an old debate (perhaps renewed by some peoples ideas on quantum physics) .

Basically I think he underestimates the abilty of the human mind eg to separate itself from  its environment and use imagination and other tools to envisage other realities and alternatives ie to become existent in a totally  difernt  environment, using imagination, and to work out how it  ( the being that had evolved  in tha t environment)  would respond within that environment.

  Becsue it can do this, strangely, it can also more clearly  see its own environment, and even itself, for what it is,  and more objectively assess the relationship between self  and non self 

[Mr Walker]

On 10/24/2019 at 7:11 AM, quiXilver said:

can there be buying without there also, simultaneously being selling?

are there ever waves with only crests and no troughs?

 

observer and environment?

in a similar manner: can there be an organism without an environment, or environment without organisms?

organism and environment are 'of a thing'.

as are senses and experience of reality...

beliefs are thoughts... considered true by the one experiencing them...

but they are 'of a thing'... aspects of expression of one unified process...

the environment is comprised of the organisms and the organisms wholly make up the environment

 

are rainbows real for earthworms?

are rainbows real without color sensitive eyes?

the experience of reality, seems wholly dependent upon the nature of the organ interacting with vibrations...

without the structure of the organ, what transpires?  what can be said to exist?

we always experience existence, reality, truth... through our own individual process.

Rainbows are a real physical effect of light refraction. The y are real in an earthworms world and also in a blind person's world, but the y do not form part of the inner reality of either .

However a blind person can learn about them  appreciate their wonder and beauty, vicariously ,  and form abstract images or concepts of what a rainbow would look like.

  If not born blind they  can even generate an inner image of a rain bow  An earth worm, of course, cannot 

Yes we do experience reality through our minds But this should not prejudice or inform us to the independent physical nature of reality or we will begin to believe that reality is what we perceive, and might even cease to exist once we cannot perceive it 

Ie if something is real, and i drop dead, that thing will continue it's existence beyond my own.  The sandwich does not cease to exist once it is put out of my sight into the lunch box   If i make something now. people in a hundred years time may still be able to use it  just as i can use things made several centuries ago by people long gone. 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Mr Walker

[Crazy Horse]

On 11/3/2019 at 11:06 PM, quiXilver said:

Constant revision/interpretation based on feelings and gut... well said.

Baseline awareness... gut instinct.  I find I do not choose my feelings.  They arise in response to stimuli.  Much like thoughts.

I wonder.  Are there any voluntary beliefs?  Or are they rationalized explanations of what are inherently involuntary conditioned responses to stimuli, based on sub-conscious awareness?

Its a good question...

I think as a rule of thumb, everything happens for a reason, beliefs, good feelings, bad vibes...

Although some beliefs are not even rational.

Compassion balanced by wisdom, wisdom balanced by experience, experience known by mindfulness, mindfulness practiced out of a desire... I could go on lol.

But I think you are right, we don't get to choose our feelings, but we can get to see the consequences that arise from acting out upon such things, (love/anger) and seeing the consequences of those choices. At least we get to make an informed decision next time round!

 

[+Sherapy]

On 11/3/2019 at 5:50 PM, Mr Walker said:

Rainbows are a real physical effect of light refraction. The y are real in an earthworms world and also in a blind person's world, but the y do not form part of the inner reality of either .

However a blind person can learn about them  appreciate their wonder and beauty, vicariously ,  and form abstract images or concepts of what a rainbow would look like.

  If not born blind they  can even generate an inner image of a rain bow  An earth worm, of course, cannot 

Yes we do experience reality through our minds But this should not prejudice or inform us to the independent physical nature of reality or we will begin to believe that reality is what we perceive, and might even cease to exist once we cannot perceive it 

Ie if something is real, and i drop dead, that thing will continue it's existence beyond my own.  The sandwich does not cease to exist once it is put out of my sight into the lunch box   If i make something now. people in a hundred years time may still be able to use it  just as i can use things made several centuries ago by people long gone. 

One “interprets” reality via mentation, we experience reality through our sense perception. 

Our interpreted sense of self is linked to our memories. 
 

Think about Alzheimer’s\ Dementia a person lacks the ability to form new memories because the brain cannot communicate with other parts of the brain due to the plaques, eventually if one lives long enough one will lose the ability to communicate all together, as they lose their memories they lose their sense of who they once were. An Alzheimer’s practitioner gets into their new reality (which is the equivalent of living in the moment) and doing this brings quality of life and joy. One doesn’t cease to exist, they just have a different reality. 
 

For ex: I have a good friend who is late stages Dementia she is no longer verbal in the sense we understand it, she no longer talks, but Rosie ( not really name) loves music, She is the funnest person, she has a great sense of humor, loves people and new experiences, is very loving and brings people together, is kind, She loves to eat and do things for herself, she loves to get her nails and hair done, doesn’t like the sound of water it scares her, loves to watch the Price is Right...

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

On 11/10/2019 at 6:01 AM, Sherapy said:

One “interprets” reality via mentation, we experience reality through our sense perception. 

Our interpreted sense of self is linked to our memories. 
 

Think about Alzheimer’s\ Dementia a person lacks the ability to form new memories because the brain cannot communicate with other parts of the brain due to the plaques, eventually if one lives long enough one will lose the ability to communicate all together, as they lose their memories they lose their sense of who they once were. An Alzheimer’s practitioner gets into their new reality (which is the equivalent of living in the moment) and doing this brings quality of life and joy. One doesn’t cease to exist, they just have a different reality. 
 

For ex: I have a good friend who is late stages Dementia she is no longer verbal in the sense we understand it, she no longer talks, but Rosie ( not really name) loves music, She is the funnest person, she has a great sense of humor, loves people and new experiences, is very loving and brings people together, is kind, She loves to eat and do things for herself, she loves to get her nails and hair done, doesn’t like the sound of water it scares her, loves to watch the Price is Right...

 

 

Not disagreeing  with that. Just saying that a human mind is capable of identifying and analysing objective reality, as well as subjective reality This was a skill once taught to children  t school 

Reality exits independent of a human.

Because  this is so we can interpret it objectively OR subjectively   ie analysing the object, or analysing our interpretation and perception of the object .

   it is true that many conditions, especially those associated with aging, can reduce or eliminate these abilities, and that young humans have to learn the ability