the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #126 Share Posted July 31, 2019 7 minutes ago, openozy said: So if you experienced something paranormal would you believe it was real or just keep your head in the sand and still deny it? show me proof and ask again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openozy Posted July 31, 2019 #127 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, the13bats said: its not mine or anyones burden to prove someones imagination and superstitions are not real. can you should me a modern court case where it was proven that someone conjured a demon, had tableware flying or any of the things you claim? Just seems a collaborating story is enough proof to get you off a murder charge,or are you above the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openozy Posted July 31, 2019 #128 Share Posted July 31, 2019 2 minutes ago, the13bats said: show me proof and ask again... So head in the sand it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 31, 2019 #129 Share Posted July 31, 2019 57 minutes ago, Habitat said: Sarcasm does not become you. If you were I, you'd have not the slightest doubt. But, again, the point is, why is it important ? Life goes on, it isn't a cataclysmic discovery. I'm glad to not be you. It's foolish to not have doubt in regards to something that evades provability. Is it important? Depends. The factual existence of ghost would open new doors in physics. On the more mundane side of things, it isn't important at all. It just makes ghost stories. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 31, 2019 #130 Share Posted July 31, 2019 This is the real "neediness" of what I call the team, they have a latent intuition that this stuff is real, but a insistence that it must be confirmed by a panel of "experts", before they will give way to that intuition, I'm afraid it is obvious to me, that that is a forlorn hope, it is simply not the nature of the phenomenon to submit to inspection, it is a strange beast that that "leads one on but is impossible to reach". If that is impossible to credit, then one might consider the possibility that your assumptions are not calibrated to the field from whence thus stuff springs. It's basically a failure of imagination, to insist it cannot be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Walt' E. Kurtz Posted July 31, 2019 Author #131 Share Posted July 31, 2019 14 hours ago, XenoFish said: If only there was factual evidence for all this paranormal woo woo, too bad that anecdotal stories is all we got. I mean, it's almost as if people make this stuff up, are they completely exaggerate the most mundane of things... I didn't exaggerate anything it's what i experienced and i also understand what you ment 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Walt' E. Kurtz Posted July 31, 2019 Author #132 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, openozy said: I don't fall into any of these catagories,so what do you think my motivation is.Sorry for trolling in advance.You forgot to mention that some people actually do experience these things regardless of you opinion. And many of them doesn't have any mental illnesses. So if you believe in the paranormal you're an attention seeker and just fabricate your stories. I believe in the paranormal from what i have experienced and from others stories but i dont usually talk about it and i dont attack or people who believe in these things or ridicule them for believing. I can only speak from my own experiences. Edited July 31, 2019 by Impedancer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 31, 2019 #133 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Impedancer said: I didn't exaggerate anything it's what i experienced and i also understand what you ment My comment wasn't direct at you specifically. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Walt' E. Kurtz Posted July 31, 2019 Author #134 Share Posted July 31, 2019 18 minutes ago, XenoFish said: My comment wasn't direct at you specifically. Everything is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaikou Posted July 31, 2019 #135 Share Posted July 31, 2019 This for me is a really hard topic to answer because I find myself fitting in to a certain few groups, firstly: I'm an atheist. I don't believe in a God, Devil, a heaven or a hell. I also don't believe in the majority of the "generally accepted" notions, advice, or theories about ghosts or about the paranormal in general. (ie. I hate a lot about about the running and jumping to conclusions about "Well, it would make sense that we have a ghost. It's obviously Aunt Edna. She died here in her favourite chair and is just coming to visit". To me, this reveals a lot more about the human mind and exposure to everyday life than any thing more. ON THE OTHER HAND: It would be wrong for me to deny that I've had some really strange experiences, that to this day I'm struggling to wrap my head around. Especially things that involve psysical movement or contact. As eluded to in a previous post, I did witness a door open at the handle without anyone being on the other side. (The door was in normal working order and wasn't damaged) 30 minutes later the food I had placed side by side in the microwave ended up piled on top of each other in the center of the plate. A year or two later, I attempted my own "communication sessions" At one point I asked "If there IS anything out there and you like communicating with me, could you please give me a sign". Within a couple of days of nothing happening, I forgot about this and went about my normal everyday life. After a couple more days, things started to get... Odd. One Friday night, I found myself walking along a street after purchasing some rum, a takeaway, plus some stuff for my dad. While walking down the street, shopping bag in each hand, I felt the fleece I was wearing move backwards at the elbow (as if someone had pulled it with quite a lot of force). My arm moved back as if it was being pulled along with it. I turned around expecting one of two things 1. That a friend had noticed me and snook up behind me and grabbed my fleece to surprise me. 2. Someone grabbed me to get my attention before attacking me (Not massively uncommon in this area, many bars and pubs for people to lose themselves in). I turned around expecting the worst, only to find that the street was empty. The next night I had two odd things happen within hours of each other: At 10:30, while editting a website layout, I had my arms crossed on my desk. While looking through the layout (looking for things that I wanted to change) I felt the hoodie and shirt that I was wearing lift from the middle of my back and something large move from the top of my back to the bottom. It felt odd and I always had a fear of spiders, the first thing that hit me was "a spider dropped down from the ceiling and went down your back". I threw off my clothes in shock and changed just to be on the safe side. After looking at the surrounding area, I found nothing and found myself pretty confused as to what just happened. Then, at 4:30 in the morning, I decided I needed to go to sleep. After getting ready I went back into my room, turned the light off and proceeded to walk over to my bed. After walking a couple of steps, I felt physical contact to the middle of my left ear that stopped me in my tracks. The only way I can describe it to you was a hard flick. Like as if you took your middle finger, braced it on your thumb and added some force. At the time, I had one Helix piercing with a ring in it, which as this struck me, lifted and fell due to the force. Over the years, I spent a lot of time in different environments. I've been hit by bugs, flies, moths and on a couple of occasions bats. None of this matched, no sound of wings, no breeze. A flick has a particular force which is kind of hard to replicate. With all of this being said: Can I really sit back and define this as a "ghost", a "spirit", Well of course not, Most of our thoughts and beliefs on the topic come from movies, books and religious sources. One thing I will say though, If this was truly paranormal and you can be flicked, I can't see a reason why you couldn't be punched, kicked, slapped or scratched. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted July 31, 2019 #136 Share Posted July 31, 2019 As we have no scientific theory for the nature of "ghosts", then it is impossible to answer this question. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #137 Share Posted July 31, 2019 8 hours ago, openozy said: Just seems a collaborating story is enough proof to get you off a murder charge,or are you above the law. have you or anyone proven in court to have cojured a demon, made tableware fly or any of your extraordinary claims? with or without collaboration? 8 hours ago, openozy said: So head in the sand it seems. Hum? "bury (one's) head in the sand To avoid, or try to avoid, a particular situation by pretending that it does not exist. The phrase refers to the common but mistaken belief that ostriches bury their heads in the sand when frightened, so as to avoid being seen." Actually since im open to peoples claims and stories and very much saying show me the proof and you are avoiding the fact you have none by derailing and getting angry that expression seems to apply to you not me at this moment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #138 Share Posted July 31, 2019 7 hours ago, Habitat said: This is the real "neediness" of what I call the team, they have a latent intuition that this stuff is real, but a insistence that it must be confirmed by a panel of "experts", before they will give way to that intuition, I'm afraid it is obvious to me, that that is a forlorn hope, it is simply not the nature of the phenomenon to submit to inspection, it is a strange beast that that "leads one on but is impossible to reach". If that is impossible to credit, then one might consider the possibility that your assumptions are not calibrated to the field from whence thus stuff springs. It's basically a failure of imagination, to insist it cannot be. word salad? you could have just used the old excuse of having no proof by claiming it cant be proven that you are good with your blind faith. i could respect that. Not latent im pretty upfront in my intuition on the subject and people who tell the stories and make extraordinary claims. i respect your blind belief respect i do not share it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #139 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 hour ago, Kaikou said: With all of this being said: Can I really sit back and define this as a "ghost", a "spirit", Well of course not, Most of our thoughts and beliefs on the topic come from movies, books and religious sources. One thing I will say though, If this was truly paranormal and you can be flicked, I can't see a reason why you couldn't be punched, kicked, slapped or scratched Very well said, For over 40 years i have heard stories of the paranormal the supernatural, superstition, i find them all fascinating my work and some interests placed me around a lot of people drawn to such stuff most are kind people not full of anger. Some were just making up stories for attention some more aware than others they were making it up and some did have mental issues in some cases alcohol and drugs were involved but not always, some were just very fantasy based and wanted stuff to be real so badly that they believed. others fell for deliberate hoaxes or just misunderstood the natural world. Countless times i said prove it, show me most times i was greeted with a smug smile and told "i cant prove it". Most of the cases are just stories of odd unexplained things happening not everyone makes the jump that if something is unknown it must be paranormal supernatural in explanation. Then i ran into the next step up the ones who claim to have gifts or special powers, oddly most not all of them seem cut from the same cloth in that they share traits, if asked for proof its that whole smoke and mirrors of excuses why it doesnt work that way and you are inferior to them for mearly asking for them to show you. Oddly they seem to be in the deepest need for acceptance and for people to believe them, asking them for proof is akin to a very bad personal insult, they will get very angry and seldom let up. its a shame they are unsure of their own beliefs. If ghosts were real in the sense of this threads question why just flick a person why not knock them down or more, oh i know some true believers will blindly subscribe all kinds of mischief to spookies, but if i trip and fall walking to my carriage house i believe its far more likely that im clumsy than casper or beetlejuice pushed me down, saying im clumsy isnt cool or glamorous but saying a spookie pushed me is very cool ( to some people ). = wanting attention. And its perfect can i prove casper knocked me down? of course not, and i can try to play the card that the doubter has to prove he didnt which isnt the doubters burden. We all have weird odd things happen, a person might believe they saw a shadow or object move, felt a breeze on the back of their heads, they might even claim to be able to summon the ghost of walt disney to dance a polka on their coffee table, i will get very intrigued at the possibilities i will ask to show me and after 40 plus years all i have are stories. bummer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 31, 2019 #140 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 hour ago, the13bats said: word salad? you could have just used the old excuse of having no proof by claiming it cant be proven that you are good with your blind faith. i could respect that. Not latent im pretty upfront in my intuition on the subject and people who tell the stories and make extraordinary claims. i respect your blind belief respect i do not share it. In that case you are as thoroughly deluded as the rest of the loiterers around here, who have almost zero insight into their "anti-woo" motives. People don't involve themselves in things they have no interest, and the excuses proffered by the "team" to explain their interest are uniformly unconvincing. What we have here are control freaks who want to deem how reality sits, and aren't going to be budged from the insistence it must be able to be dissected by science, or not exist. If they actually really believed that latter, they'd have long since rested comfortable in the notion that it certainly does not exist, given that is zero evidence of that kind ! But, as we can see, they are still arguing the toss. Convinced people don't do that. The idea that something can evade such "capture", always, is something they are very uncomfortable with, it is certainly not a fit with the attitude of "rationally" controlling their environment. And yet, the intuition persists within them, that there really is such a thing. Otherwise they would have departed these boards. Such is the world of those who refuse to admit they "just don't know". Not being humble enough, comes at a price. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #141 Share Posted July 31, 2019 16 minutes ago, Habitat said: In that case you are as thoroughly deluded as the rest of the loiterers around here, who have almost zero insight into their "anti-woo" motives. People don't involve themselves in things they have no interest, and the excuses proffered by the "team" to explain their interest are uniformly unconvincing. What we have here are control freaks who want to deem how reality sits, and aren't going to be budged from the insistence it must be able to be dissected by science, or not exist. If they actually really believed that latter, they'd have long since rested comfortable in the notion that it certainly does not exist, given that is zero evidence of that kind ! But, as we can see, they are still arguing the toss. Convinced people don't do that. The idea that something can evade such "capture", always, is something they are very uncomfortable with, it is certainly not a fit with the attitude of "rationally" controlling their environment. And yet, the intuition persists within them, that there really is such a thing. Otherwise they would have departed these boards. Such is the world of those who refuse to admit they "just don't know". Not being humble enough, comes at a price. youre funny...you are actually doing just what you babblingly claim the "team" the "loiterers" as you call them are doing, you keep on coming back over and over tossing your word salad, hand waving posturing and dancing around having nothing. Since i am always asking for proof, show me, i will do so with you, you will jump to set me straight again, which in turn proves you are very much doing what you claim the team does...go ahead...prove me right about you reply. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 31, 2019 #142 Share Posted July 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, the13bats said: youre funny...you are actually doing just what you babblingly claim the "team" the "loiterers" as you call them are doing, you keep on coming back over and over tossing your word salad, hand waving posturing and dancing around having nothing. Since i am always asking for proof, show me, i will do so with you, you will jump to set me straight again, which in turn proves you are very much doing what you claim the team does...go ahead...prove me right about you reply. Look bats, we know you are slightly "batty", but do you really think the momentous event of first "woo capture" announcement will occur right here ? The team are all too ready to abandon the strict adherence to truth, that is the mark of the real man of knowledge, by refusing to acknowledge that the true status of these phenomena is UNKNOWN. They prefer to fudge it, with premature conclusions of lying, imposture, delusions, mental illnesses, trickery etc, anything other than WE JUST DON'T KNOW. You are not going to be fooled again, are you bats ! 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #143 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Habitat said: Look bats, we know you are slightly "batty", but do you really think the momentous event of first "woo capture" announcement will occur right here ? The team are all too ready to abandon the strict adherence to truth, that is the mark of the real man of knowledge, by refusing to acknowledge that the true status of these phenomena is UNKNOWN. They prefer to fudge it, with premature conclusions of lying, imposture, delusions, mental illnesses, trickery etc, anything other than WE JUST DON'T KNOW. You are not going to be fooled again, are you bats ! Who are the "we" you refer to, the voices in your head? there are treatments for that. Thank you for jumping right on it and for not only proving my point about you but going that extra mile in showing what you are really all about. well done Edited July 31, 2019 by the13bats typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 31, 2019 #144 Share Posted July 31, 2019 Just now, the13bats said: Thank you for jumping right on that and for not only proving my point about you but going that extra mile in showing what you are really all about. well done I know what I'm on about bats, but you are largely ignorant of your motives in wanting "woo" smashed. It is a need you have, but don't really understand why. You are uncomfortable with the idea, because it is creating a conflict in your mind, between an intuition that it is real, and a "rational" preference that it not be real. Who wants to have a thoroughly rationalist mindset, messed with by stuff that seems not to fit the model. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #145 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Habitat said: I know what I'm on about bats, but you are largely ignorant of your motives in wanting "woo" smashed. It is a need you have, but don't really understand why. You are uncomfortable with the idea, because it is creating a conflict in your mind, between an intuition that it is real, and a "rational" preference that it not be real. Who wants to have a thoroughly rationalist mindset, messed with by stuff that seems not to fit the model. This is priceless...you are doing more to prove all my points about you than myself or anyone else could ever hope to do.. keep on ranting Edited July 31, 2019 by the13bats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted July 31, 2019 #146 Share Posted July 31, 2019 1 minute ago, the13bats said: This is priceless...you are doing more to prove all my points about you than myself or anyone else could ever hope to do.. keep on ranting Well bats, I would not be here unless I knew the truth, otherwise I'd simply say "who can really say", and move on. The team are anxious to support one another in their preferred belief, but the reality is that no judgement ought be made, in the absence of evidence, and by happenstance I have seen all the evidence I need. This is a matter that may seem utterly improbable, but we really can't be sure it doesn't exist, and especially when there seems no pressing external need to decide upon it, the only reason people do, is because of internal psychological reasons, and those reasons do no bespeak a great respect for the truth, which is quite simply, that YOU JUST DON"T KNOW. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted July 31, 2019 #147 Share Posted July 31, 2019 14 hours ago, the13bats said: ... What is a "true believer"? I would guess the definition varies person to person, i do not use the term in any derogatory sense to me it is just the label i give a person who believes something with zero real evidence or proof it could be spookies, aliens, bigfoot or purple unicorns or "these things" you believe. ... Quote True-believer syndrome is an informal or rhetorical term used by M. Lamar Keene in his 1976 book The Psychic Mafia. Keene used the term to refer to people who continued to believe in a paranormal event or phenomenon even after it had been proven to have been staged.[1][2] Keene considered it to be a cognitive disorder,[3][4] and regarded it as being a key factor in the success of many psychic mediums.[2] The term "true believer" was used earlier by Eric Hoffer in his 1951 book The True Believer to describe the psychological roots of fanatical groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlookerofmayhem Posted July 31, 2019 #148 Share Posted July 31, 2019 20 minutes ago, Habitat said: I know what I'm on about bats, but you are largely ignorant of your motives in wanting "woo" smashed. It is a need you have, but don't really understand why. You are uncomfortable with the idea, because it is creating a conflict in your mind, between an intuition that it is real, and a "rational" preference that it not be real. Who wants to have a thoroughly rationalist mindset, messed with by stuff that seems not to fit the model. Who are you to tell others they are ignorant of their own motives? What are your motives to ignorantly proclaim such things about people you don't know? Have I missed the thread where it is asked for people to spell out their motives? Who are you to say it's a need that is not understood? I know why I post on this site. I'm sure most others do too. I don't think you get to determine who is uncomfortable with any ideas. That is solely on the individual entertaining said idea. I have no such conflict in my mind. It's not rational to believe anything without proof. You admit one must individually experience such paranormal events to believe them? Even then, how is one to determine the cause of an event? You claim it's a phenomenon that cannot be studied. How do so many people claim to know so much about it? So for those of us who have never experienced anything paranormal, we have very good reason to not believe because there is no objective evidence. I don't claim to understand every minute detail about the world, but I certainly don't just believe a story because somebody told me it really, really truly did happen exactly as they perceived it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the13bats Posted July 31, 2019 #149 Share Posted July 31, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Habitat said: Well bats, I would not be here unless I knew the truth, otherwise I'd simply say "who can really say", and move on. The team are anxious to support one another in their preferred belief, but the reality is that no judgement ought be made, in the absence of evidence, and by happenstance I have seen all the evidence I need. This is a matter that may seem utterly improbable, but we greally can't be sure it doesn't exist, and especially when there seems no pressing external need to decide upon it, the only reason people do, is because of internal psychological reasons, and those reasons do no bespeak a great respect for the truth, which is quite simply, that YOU JUST DON"T KNOW. Well your consistent in your babbling rantings, I accept your blind belief is enough for you i have no idea why you are so deeply obsessed that blind true belief isnt enough for me, and many others. yeah i know you'll make another babbling ranting reply. Edited July 31, 2019 by the13bats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habitat Posted August 1, 2019 #150 Share Posted August 1, 2019 9 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said: It's not rational to believe anything without proof. You admit one must individually experience such paranormal events to believe them? Even then, how is one to determine the cause of an event? You claim it's a phenomenon that cannot be studied. How do so many people claim to know so much about it? There is a difference between not believing, and not crediting the possibility, but simply resorting to ridicule, such as the P101 morse code sarcasm. He wouldn't know, but kids himself he does. There is a lot of internal motive involved in that attitude, when the spirit of true enquiry would offer no more than "I don't know". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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