Maya acoustics: Chichen Itza

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, WVK said:

The idea that culturally significant acoustic effects in multiple location at different sites are simply the results of of semi ruined condition is absurd 

You have not yet shown that the "culturally significant acoustic effects" take place in a fully reconstructed site.  They weren't doing this in ruined buildings, you know.

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, WVK said:

The idea that culturally significant acoustic effects in multiple location at different sites are simply the results of of semi ruined condition is absurd 

Then prove it experimentally. Until you do that your opinion on the matter is not fact.

I believe there exist computer programs to simulate the movement of sounds waves in any programmable situation. Simply find which of the professional 'acoustic hunters' are doing such experiments and ask them.

 

[WVK]

10 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You have not yet shown that the "culturally significant acoustic effects" take place in a fully reconstructed site.  They weren't doing this in ruined buildings, you know.

Thats moving the goal post to impossible.  However a multidisciplinary  study Maya archaeologists, Maya architecture experts acoustic scientists etc  That would help eliminate all this the guesswork and provide some useful data  Would that work for you?

[WVK]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

- was it intentional.

In the end that's for Archaeologists to decide. 

[Hanslune]

4 hours ago, WVK said:

In the end that's for Archaeologists to decide. 

O k a y so what is your point in making the same claim over and over again?

[Piney]

7 hours ago, WVK said:

In the end that's for Archaeologists to decide. 

OK........

@Swede  Your opinion? I'm just a over educated field assistant. 

[Hanslune]

45 minutes ago, Piney said:

OK........

@Swede  Your opinion? I'm just a over educated field assistant. 

I vote while interesting it remains unproven and needs more research but whether such research would have a high priority is another matter. Best handled by private donations.

[Swede]

18 hours ago, Piney said:

OK........

@Swede  Your opinion? I'm just a over educated field assistant. 

Irrefutably demonstrating that the effects currently observed existed at the time of occupation and were intentional is problematic at best. There are simply too many variables, as mentioned by the other contributors. The impact on the sonic conditions by the attenuation and bustle of the resident population would alone be enough to likely negate any potential effect.

Thanks to the work of Schele and others, the Mayan script is now largely translatable. If specific mention of the phenomena or related designs could be documented in the original writings, one could possibly make a case. To my knowledge, no such primary-source documentation exists.

As a field of study, archaeoacoustics is even less well established than archaeoastronomy and, like archaeoastronomy, is often abused by fringe types.

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[Kenemet]

On 6/22/2019 at 11:47 AM, WVK said:

Thats moving the goal post to impossible.  However a multidisciplinary  study Maya archaeologists, Maya architecture experts acoustic scientists etc  That would help eliminate all this the guesswork and provide some useful data  Would that work for you?

Yes.  As @Swede said, if there was mention in the script or related designs in original writings or near the area where the effect was heard, then yes... or if we see other sites with the exact same structure, then yes.

[WVK]

18 hours ago, Swede said:

The impact on the sonic conditions by the attenuation and bustle of the resident population would alone be enough to likely negate any potential effect.

Yet the effects are demonstrated every day by the guides with the noise of 100s of tourists and vendors..  Would it be unreasonable  to suggest that during Maya ceremony that the crowds were in silent attention?.   

[WVK]

15 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Yes.  As @Swede said, if there was mention in the script or related designs in original writings

Figure 4.1: Illustrations of Maya speech scrolls (modified from Houston et al. 2006) Speech and song scrolls depicted in ancient Maya artwork communicate the importance and properties of sound. Sound was perceived as something concrete and the whiplash motion in the scrolls may represent the changing volume of speech. Music aroused deities, guided a dancer’s rhythm, induced trance through repetition, mimicked animal calls, and enhanced the sensory experience (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006). Sound and music were essential components of ritual—songs represented beauty, marked spaces as divine, and communicated information (King and Santiago 2011; Moore 2005). Hieroglyphs often associate deities with music; for example, the storm god Chaak, associated with thunder and wind is linked to song and music. Moreover, echoes or vibrations of sound have been artistically depicted in glyphs, showing an understanding of sensory stimuli (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006)

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1053&context=anthrotheses

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, WVK said:

Yet the effects are demonstrated every day by the guides with the noise of 100s of tourists and vendors..  Would it be unreasonable  to suggest that during Maya ceremony that the crowds were in silent attention?.   

This comment is in regards to the colonnade where the full structure would have been there and a multiude of people about. I've been to lots of Maya cities with tourists visiting - have you? They usually count up to a score or so, not hundreds if not thousands of Maya

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, WVK said:

Figure 4.1: Illustrations of Maya speech scrolls (modified from Houston et al. 2006) Speech and song scrolls depicted in ancient Maya artwork communicate the importance and properties of sound. Sound was perceived as something concrete and the whiplash motion in the scrolls may represent the changing volume of speech. Music aroused deities, guided a dancer’s rhythm, induced trance through repetition, mimicked animal calls, and enhanced the sensory experience (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006). Sound and music were essential components of ritual—songs represented beauty, marked spaces as divine, and communicated information (King and Santiago 2011; Moore 2005). Hieroglyphs often associate deities with music; for example, the storm god Chaak, associated with thunder and wind is linked to song and music. Moreover, echoes or vibrations of sound have been artistically depicted in glyphs, showing an understanding of sensory stimuli (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006)

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1053&context=anthrotheses

Interesting paper, set in Copan and dealing mainly with whether an elite speaking Ch’olt’ian could be heard at certain locations if giving speeches.

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Hanslune

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, WVK said:

Would it be unreasonable  to suggest that during Maya ceremony that the crowds were in silent attention?.   

Unknown again this information might be available from Spanish sources or anthropological studies of existing Maya groups (about thirty of them if I recall).

Different cultures act differently in such situations: Example: Western culture has people being completely quite while watching a movie, Arab/Muslim culture ignores this and people talk among themselves as if they were at home, phones are used and small children allowed to run about.

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by Hanslune

[WVK]

22 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

This comment is in regards to the colonnade where the full structure would have been there and a multiude of people about. I've been to lots of Maya cities with tourists visiting - have you? They usually count up to a score or so, not hundreds if not thousands of Maya

Would you expect that that 1000s of Maya would have been milling around in a noisy fashion during ceremonies?    

[WVK]

35 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

This comment is in regards to the colonnade where the full structure would have been there and a multiude of people about. I've been to lots of Maya cities with tourists visiting - have you? They usually count up to a score or so, not hundreds if not thousands of Maya

Question? Would any Maya be been in amongst the building except during ceremony?  They weren't meant to be lived in were they?

[Swede]

3 hours ago, WVK said:

Yet the effects are demonstrated every day by the guides with the noise of 100s of tourists and vendors..  Would it be unreasonable  to suggest that during Maya ceremony that the crowds were in silent attention?.   

Consider the matter of scale. At its height, the city of Chichen Itza is estimated to have had a population of ~50,000. In addition, certain ceremonial events likely drew in outlying visitors. We are thus dealing with literally throngs of bodies. In addition, we are dealing with all the other structures in the vicinity that are no longer extant. We are furthermore dealing with the structure in its full form, not the currently skeletonized structure.

Also bear in mind that the structure has been rebuilt/encapsulated at least three times, making it highly unlikely that any perceived effects were consistently present.

.

[Swede]

3 hours ago, WVK said:

Figure 4.1: Illustrations of Maya speech scrolls (modified from Houston et al. 2006) Speech and song scrolls depicted in ancient Maya artwork communicate the importance and properties of sound. Sound was perceived as something concrete and the whiplash motion in the scrolls may represent the changing volume of speech. Music aroused deities, guided a dancer’s rhythm, induced trance through repetition, mimicked animal calls, and enhanced the sensory experience (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006). Sound and music were essential components of ritual—songs represented beauty, marked spaces as divine, and communicated information (King and Santiago 2011; Moore 2005). Hieroglyphs often associate deities with music; for example, the storm god Chaak, associated with thunder and wind is linked to song and music. Moreover, echoes or vibrations of sound have been artistically depicted in glyphs, showing an understanding of sensory stimuli (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006)

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1053&context=anthrotheses

Initial calculations showed that regardless of audience size, only about 9% of attendees could actually comprehend the words of a speaker at Stela D, a hypothesized performance location along a ritual circuit in the Great Plaza (Newsome 2001).

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1053&context=anthrotheses

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[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, WVK said:

Would you expect that that 1000s of Maya would have been milling around in a noisy fashion during ceremonies?    

I wouldn't expect anything because we don't know - idle speculation is of no value here - do you expect them to be standing still, unmoved and mute for say 6 hours 23 minutes and 11 and half seconds? If not why not? lol

[Hanslune]

53 minutes ago, Swede said:

Consider the matter of scale. At its height, the city of Chichen Itza is estimated to have had a population of ~50,000. In addition, certain ceremonial events likely drew in outlying visitors. We are thus dealing with literally throngs of bodies. In addition, we are dealing with all the other structures in the vicinity that are no longer extant. We are furthermore dealing with the structure in its full form, not the currently skeletonized structure.

Also bear in mind that the structure has been rebuilt/encapsulated at least three times, making it highly unlikely that any perceived effects were consistently present.

.

While the Aztecs and Inca were later and had different cultures they also had very large crowds at their public affairs as noted by the Spanish and later by dual national children who noted it also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_in_the_Great_Temple_of_Tenochtitlan

 

Quote

More than 600 gentlemen and several lords gathered in the yard of the largest temple; some said there were more than a thousand there. They made a lot of noise with their drums, shells, bugles, and hendidos, which sounded like a loud whistle. Preparing their festival, they were naked, but covered with precious stones, pearls, necklaces, belts, bracelets, many jewels of gold, silver, and mother-of-pearl, wearing very rich feathers on their heads. They performed a dance called the mazeualiztli, which is called that because it is a holiday from work [symbolized by the word for farmer, macehaulli]. . . . They laid mats in the patio of the temple and played drums on them. They danced in circles, holding hands, to the music of the singers, to which they responded.

Quote

Here it is told how the Spaniards killed, they murdered the Mexicans who were celebrating the Fiesta of Huitzilopochtli in the place they called The Patio of the Gods

At this time, when everyone was enjoying the celebration, when everyone was already dancing, when everyone was already singing, when song was linked to song and the songs roared like waves, in that precise moment the Spaniards determined to kill people. They came into the patio, armed for battle.

 

[Hanslune]

1 hour ago, WVK said:

Question? Would any Maya be been in amongst the building except during ceremony?  They weren't meant to be lived in were they?

No , they were ceremonial the people lived in the urban areas around the ceremonial centers. Some temples would have had priests in attendance at all times. I helped to test pit and clear parts of this to west of the center.

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, WVK said:

Figure 4.1: Illustrations of Maya speech scrolls (modified from Houston et al. 2006) Speech and song scrolls depicted in ancient Maya artwork communicate the importance and properties of sound. Sound was perceived as something concrete and the whiplash motion in the scrolls may represent the changing volume of speech. Music aroused deities, guided a dancer’s rhythm, induced trance through repetition, mimicked animal calls, and enhanced the sensory experience (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006). Sound and music were essential components of ritual—songs represented beauty, marked spaces as divine, and communicated information (King and Santiago 2011; Moore 2005). Hieroglyphs often associate deities with music; for example, the storm god Chaak, associated with thunder and wind is linked to song and music. Moreover, echoes or vibrations of sound have been artistically depicted in glyphs, showing an understanding of sensory stimuli (Houston, Stuart, & Taube 2006)

https://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1053&context=anthrotheses

That doesn't prove using special spaces for performance areas because echoes made special noises.  As far as I can tell, none of them indicate "clap and a rattlesnake noise."

[WVK]

16 hours ago, Swede said:

Consider the matter of scale. At its height, the city of Chichen Itza is estimated to have had a population of ~50,000.

The soundscape would be much quieter than typical urban area today, No cars, trucks planes, trains etc. In fact less noise than pre-industriasl European cities without horses clopping carriage wheels rumbling, church bell clanging. 

[WVK]

36 minutes ago, WVK said:

The soundscape would be much quieter than typical urban area today, No cars, trucks planes, trains etc. In fact less noise than pre-industriasl European cities without horses clopping carriage wheels rumbling, church bell clanging. 

Sounds of the city: the soundscape of early modern European towns

https://api.research-repository.uwa.edu.au/portalfiles/portal/14264641/Garrioch._Sounds_of_the_City_The_Soundscape_of_Early_Modern_European_Towns.pdf

[Hanslune]

57 minutes ago, WVK said:

The soundscape would be much quieter than typical urban area today, No cars, trucks planes, trains etc. In fact less noise than pre-industriasl European cities without horses clopping carriage wheels rumbling, church bell clanging. 

Just lots of priest clapping all the time. It was really quite around 3:00  except for jungle noise, the guards and those damn priests clapping