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Maya acoustics: Chichen Itza


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On 2/13/2022 at 10:58 AM, WVK said:

Move along, nothing to hear here!

Correct. Correlation does not equal causation. This is particularly true when the active environments of the sites in question have experienced such significant physical and utilization changes/alterations.

One would need to provide documented, supportive data from (preferably) primary sources that indicate deliberate intent.

.

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On 2/16/2022 at 10:27 AM, WVK said:

I don’t know ask them. This thread was accepted on the moderated list.

http://www.famsi.org

I'm asking you., I'm fairly certain what their current stance would be. You provided a link to the homepage. Did you receive any response or feedback from anyone?

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3 minutes ago, Trelane said:

I'm asking you., I'm fairly certain what their current stance would be. You provided a link to the homepage. Did you receive any response or feedback from anyone?

No response to date.  

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3 hours ago, Trelane said:

Shocked, shocked I say.


THE SOUNDSCAPE IN THE REPLICA OF THE CERÉN TEMAZCAL

recent decades researchers have explored how ancient people may have experienced sound, because it was an essential component of lived experiences in ancient societies. Natural and culturally constructed spaces had acoustical properties that enhanced social, political, economic, and ritual events. This article investigates through the lens of archaeoacoustics the large domed earthen temazcal that residents constructed at Joya de Cerén during the seventh century a.d. Its uniqueness at this Classic-period Maya village in El Salvador has attracted considerable interest due to its exceptional preservation and distinct shape. Fortunately, in 2012, architects were able to construct a precise replica for public access. Through the years, visitors entering the replica have noted how significantly their voices were altered, once inside. To evaluate scientifically these observations, two recordings of sound were made and analyzed acoustically. The earthen dome morphology causes “preferred frequencies” to be sustained for a long time, while nonfavored frequencies diminish quickly. The predominant resonance is at 64 hertz, a tone so low that basso profundo singers can barely achieve it. The internal morphology greatly accentuates voices of mature males, but not those with higher pitches, such as mature females or children. The acoustical environment may have been utilized by men for divination, education, curing, rites of passage, and other functions, some of which have not been previously considered. The nature of the lived experience in a socially charged performance space is explored here with new insights regarding how the sweatbath was vital to all in the community.

https://www.colorado.edu/anthropology/sites/default/files/attached-files/the-soundscape-in-the-replica-of-the-ceren-temazcal_0.pdf

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/6/2022 at 1:27 AM, WVK said:

Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology have discovered that the limestone material of the seats provide a filtering effect, suppressing low frequencies of voices — thus minimizing background crowd noise.

Further, the rows of limestone seats reflect high-frequencies back towards the audience, enhancing the effect, noted Live Science.

https://greekreporter.com/2022/03/27/greek-amphitheaters-high-quality-sound/

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6 hours ago, Eldorado said:

Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology have discovered that the limestone material of the seats provide a filtering effect, suppressing low frequencies of voices — thus minimizing background crowd noise.

Further, the rows of limestone seats reflect high-frequencies back towards the audience, enhancing the effect, noted Live Science.

https://greekreporter.com/2022/03/27/greek-amphitheaters-high-quality-sound/

I don't think anyone doubts this.  It's well known, and unlike the New World examples, there are multiple examples of this kind of structure (so we know it's deliberate and something important for the culture,)  What I have yet to see is multiple examples of this soundscape idea in multiple locations, each with some sort of symbol that indicates it's special.

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  • 5 months later...
On 3/27/2022 at 2:43 PM, Eldorado said:

Researchers at the Georgia Institute of Technology have discovered that the limestone material of the seats provide a filtering effect, suppressing low frequencies of voices — thus minimizing background crowd noise.

Further, the rows of limestone seats reflect high-frequencies back towards the audience, enhancing the effect, noted Live Science.

https://greekreporter.com/2022/03/27/greek-amphitheaters-high-quality-sound/

How well would the filtering effect of the seats work when the theater was full of people?

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On 9/15/2022 at 9:40 PM, WVK said:

Mayan buildings may have operated as sound projectors

A team of archaeologists from Mexico say buildings built by the Maya people could have served as projection systems and amplifiers to deliver sounds over relatively large distances. 
The findings strongly suggest the design and structures at Palenque involved a great deal of knowledge about acoustics and the behavior of sound. They were presented by Zalaquett at a recent meeting of the Acoustical Society of America in Cancún, Mexico.

https://phys.org/news/2010-12-mayan-projectors.html

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Modelling Acoustics in Ancient Maya Cities: Moving Towards a Synesthetic Experience Using GIS & 3D Simulation

Archaeological analyses have successfully employed 2D and 3D tools to measure vision and movement within cityscapes; however, built environments are often designed to invoke synesthetic experiences. GIS and Virtual Reality (VR) now enable archaeologists to also measure the acoustics of ancient spaces. To move toward an understanding of synesthetic experience in ancient Maya cities, we employ GIS and 3D modelling to measure sound propagation and reverberation using the main civic-ceremonial complex in ancient Copán as a case study. For the ancient Maya, sight and sound worked in concert to create ritually-charged atmospheres and architecture served to shape these experiences. Together with archaeological, iconographic, and epigraphic data, acoustic measures help us to (1) examine potential locations of ritual performance and (2) determine spatial placement and capacity of participants in these events. We use an immersive VR headset (Oculus Rift) to integrate vision with spatial sound and sight to facilitate an embodied experience.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354494420_Modelling_Acoustics_in_Ancient_Maya_Cities_Moving_Towards_a_Synesthetic_Experience_Using_GIS_3D_Simulation

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  • 3 weeks later...
How did the Maya discover how to engineer  a reflective descending rattlesnake sound as can be witnessed from the Temple of thr Warriors complex?  
By Interaction with Rostonea palm trees. A handclap in a stand of palm trees could produce the effect. They would notice different diameters produce different sound  Trial and error to desired pitch 
 
Witnessed effest:

“Several years ago while testing a large area voice warning system for sour-gas oil wells in a hilltop clearing surrounded by birch saplings about 3" - 4" diameter, I noticed a similar chirping characteristic. The testing was being done in winter with bare trees, so the trunks and branches were fully exposed, and the growth was dense. The reflections were coming back from trunks about 20-30 feet deep into the growth. The chirp had an interesting descending tone multi-arrival characteristic “

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1 hour ago, WVK said:
How did the Maya discover how to engineer  a reflective descending rattlesnake sound as can be witnessed from the Temple of thr Warriors complex?  
By Interaction with Rostonea palm trees. A handclap in a stand of palm trees could produce the effect. They would notice different diameters produce different sound  Trial and error to desired pitch 
 
Witnessed effest:

“Several years ago while testing a large area voice warning system for sour-gas oil wells in a hilltop clearing surrounded by birch saplings about 3" - 4" diameter, I noticed a similar chirping characteristic. The testing was being done in winter with bare trees, so the trunks and branches were fully exposed, and the growth was dense. The reflections were coming back from trunks about 20-30 feet deep into the growth. The chirp had an interesting descending tone multi-arrival characteristic “

Roy regia, commonly known as the Cuban royal palm or Florida royal palm,[3]is a species of palm that is native to Mexico, parts of Central America and the Caribbean, and southern Florida. A large and attractive palm, it has been planted throughout the tropics and subtropics as an ornamental tree. Although it is sometimes called R. elata, the conserved name R. regia is now the correct name for the species. The royal palm reaches heights from 50 to over 80 feet tall.[4] Populations in Cuba and Florida were long seen as separate species, but are now considered a single species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roystonea_regia

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  • 3 months later...
On 9/16/2022 at 3:51 AM, Windowpane said:

Speaking of quetzal chirps I noticed Wikipedia has added the following:

Scientific research led since 1998 suggests that the temple mimics the chirping sound of the quetzal bird when humans clap their hands around it. The researchers argue that this phenomenon is not accidental, that the builders of this temple felt divinely rewarded by the echoing effect of this structure. Technically, the clapping noise rings out and scatters against the temple's high and narrow limestone steps, producing a chirp-like tone that declines in frequency.[2][3

This passage was absent in the Feb. 2022 version

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=El_Castillo,_Chichen_Itza&oldid=1069630415

what could be going on?

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6 hours ago, WVK said:

Speaking of quetzal chirps I noticed Wikipedia has added the following:

Scientific research led since 1998 suggests that the temple mimics the chirping sound of the quetzal bird when humans clap their hands around it. The researchers argue that this phenomenon is not accidental, that the builders of this temple felt divinely rewarded by the echoing effect of this structure. Technically, the clapping noise rings out and scatters against the temple's high and narrow limestone steps, producing a chirp-like tone that declines in frequency.[2][3

This passage was absent in the Feb. 2022 version

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=El_Castillo,_Chichen_Itza&oldid=1069630415

what could be going on?

They are discussing it on that site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:El_Castillo,_Chichen_Itza

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9 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Thanks, archaeologists are a hard sell. It should be noted that Sam Edgerton stated that if the effect was in more than one location then more likely intentional.  It should also be noted that David Lubman submitted this paper 1998 for online discussion:

https://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/136th/lubman.htm

to http://www.famsi.or.     It was initially turned down. 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, WVK said:

Thanks, archaeologists are a hard sell. It should be noted that Sam Edgerton stated that if the effect was in more than one location then more likely intentional.  It should also be noted that David Lubman submitted this paper 1998 for online discussion:

https://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/136th/lubman.htm

to http://www.famsi.or.     It was initially turned down. 

Something Sam Edgerton wrote in 2008 Aztlan

David Lubman's arguments so far that Maya (or any Mesoamerican) 
"architects" could pre-plan a priori unique echo effects to the vertical 
faces of their buildings as they rose from the plan - unless, following 
some accidental occurrence of such an effect, they replicated it a 
posteriori by either resetting the stones or remodelling with plaster.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, WVK said:

Thanks, archaeologists are a hard sell. It should be noted that Sam Edgerton stated that if the effect was in more than one location then more likely intentional.  It should also be noted that David Lubman submitted this paper 1998 for online discussion:

https://acoustics.org/pressroom/httpdocs/136th/lubman.htm

to http://www.famsi.or.     It was initially turned down. 

 

 

 

 

Something Sam Edgerton wrote in 2008 Aztlan

David Lubman's arguments so far that Maya (or any Mesoamerican) 
"architects" could pre-plan a priori unique echo effects to the vertical 
faces of their buildings as they rose from the plan - unless, following 
some accidental occurrence of such an effect, they replicated it a 
posteriori by either resetting the stones or remodelling with plaster.

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