WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #201 Share Posted June 20, 2019 2 minutes ago, WVK said: Great Ballcourt. Accurate enough for cumputer modeling ? http://www.chichenitza-3d.com/chichen-itza/great_ballcourt.htm How about this: Plaza of a Thousand Columns http://www.chichenitza-3d.com/chichen-itza/plaza_of_a_thousand_columns.htm# Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #202 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, WVK said: How about this: Plaza of a Thousand Columns http://www.chichenitza-3d.com/chichen-itza/plaza_of_a_thousand_columns.htm# Note the sound reflective wall behind the colonnade https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z28YxbZW00o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 20, 2019 #203 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, WVK said: How about this: Plaza of a Thousand Columns http://www.chichenitza-3d.com/chichen-itza/plaza_of_a_thousand_columns.htm# From your link "A long the south wall of the Temple of Warriors are a series of what are today exposed columns, although when the city was inhabited these would have supported an extensive roof system." So you linked to ruins in Chichen, and one is of a video I believe you already posted before. Have you found images of Chichen priest clapping? Have you looked at the extensive anthropological studies of the current Maya to see if clapping is part of their religious ritual? Have you found out what sort of echo a Maya drum or horn causes? So basically all you seem to be doing is repeating yourself again Quote Thanks. Yep a serial poster just going over the same stuff endlessly. Quote 1. repeat your claim as many times as possible. 2. Ignore all contra-evidence. 3. Conduct a thorough on site check of all Maya sites to see if other sites existed correlated by age and commonality of purpose, design, and construction. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 20, 2019 #204 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, WVK said: Great Ballcourt. Accurate enough for cumputer modeling ? http://www.chichenitza-3d.com/chichen-itza/great_ballcourt.htm Wonderful modeling, but, if I'm not mistaken the Great Ballcourt doesn't look much like that today, nor are the stones as smooth as they're shown in the computer modeling. In addition, the acoustic properties weren't measured with the audience there. Also, it appears that the design of the ball courts vary somewhat. I see only Chichan Itza mentioned... and it doesn't look like these: If something's done intentionally then it's likely to be repeated. If soundscapes were vital to them, then we would expect to find the same features present in other places and markers indicating them. If it's a charming accident then they will be unique. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #205 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, WVK said: Great Ballcourt. Accurate enough for cumputer modeling ? http://www.chichenitza-3d.com/chichen-itza/great_ballcourt.htm Perhaps, in it's original condition this temple room could add some "larger than life" reverb to the priests voice. Like those old 1,000,000 watt mexican radio station used to dohttp://www.rssm.de/chichen-itza/images/chichen_itza-great_ballcourt_north_temple.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 20, 2019 #206 Share Posted June 20, 2019 20 minutes ago, WVK said: Perhaps, in it's original condition this temple room could add some "larger than life" reverb to the priests voice. Like those old 1,000,000 watt mexican radio station used to dohttp://www.rssm.de/chichen-itza/images/chichen_itza-great_ballcourt_north_temple.jpg Or not. The room wouldn't have been bare (there would have been other objects) and other people in the room. I assure you that you don't get "reverb" if a lot of people are standing around and the soundscape is cluttered with their bodies and their voices and sounds. Compare this to Greek theaters where there WAS a deliberate modification of the soundscape. The areas were unroofed and the audience was seated so that the sound bounced to them. In addition, all Greek theaters had this same sort of architecture so we can be reasonably confident that if the Greeks had planned for a spot where a chorus member could stand and clap so that the audience heard a rattlesnake that this would indeed be real because they'd have a marked rattlesnake spot on every stage. Presenting individual cases does nothing to prove anything. You have to show it's present everywhere AND in the condition present when it was constructed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 20, 2019 #207 Share Posted June 20, 2019 32 minutes ago, Kenemet said: Wonderful modeling, but, if I'm not mistaken the Great Ballcourt doesn't look much like that today, nor are the stones as smooth as they're shown in the computer modeling. In addition, the acoustic properties weren't measured with the audience there. Also, it appears that the design of the ball courts vary somewhat. I see only Chichan Itza mentioned... and it doesn't look like these: If something's done intentionally then it's likely to be repeated. If soundscapes were vital to them, then we would expect to find the same features present in other places and markers indicating them. If it's a charming accident then they will be unique. Yep and there are centuries separating the construction of these various ball courts 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 20, 2019 #208 Share Posted June 20, 2019 30 minutes ago, WVK said: Perhaps, in it's original condition this temple room could add some "larger than life" reverb to the priests voice. Like those old 1,000,000 watt mexican radio station used to dohttp://www.rssm.de/chichen-itza/images/chichen_itza-great_ballcourt_north_temple.jpg So your telling us that stone reflects sound. Wow. Yeah WVK we know that. What's your point? You keep seeming to be chronically astonished that sound is gets echo'd if it bounces of rocks....Lots of rocks out there since lots of people built with rocks for thousands of years. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #209 Share Posted June 20, 2019 21 minutes ago, Kenemet said: then we would expect to find the same features present in other places and markers indicating them. Like this? "") There was a circle of stone on the ground in the middle of a long ball court. When you stood on it the person standing on a similar circle at the head of the court (in the king's "booth") you can converse with that person as if they were a few feet away. The volume and clarity was startling considering that the stones were far apart (like 60+ meters). Very uncanny even by modem standards. I heard it for myself. https://tomzap.com/sounds.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #210 Share Posted June 20, 2019 24 minutes ago, Kenemet said: Or not. The room wouldn't have been bare (there would have been other objects) and other people in the room. I assure you that you don't get "reverb" if a lot of people are standing around and the soundscape is cluttered with their bodies and their voices and sounds. How do you know this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #211 Share Posted June 20, 2019 17 minutes ago, Hanslune said: So your telling us that stone reflects sound. Wow. Yeah WVK we know that. What's your point? You keep seeming to be chronically astonished that sound is gets echo'd if it bounces of rocks....Lots of rocks out there since lots of people built with rocks for thousands of years. I realize that you will never accept this no mater what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 20, 2019 Author #212 Share Posted June 20, 2019 29 minutes ago, Kenemet said: Compare this to Greek theaters where there WAS a deliberate modification of the soundscape. The areas were unroofed and the audience was seated so that the sound bounced to them. In addition, all Greek theaters had this same sort of architecture so we can be reasonably confident that if the Greeks had planned for a spot where a chorus member could stand and clap so that the audience heard a rattlesnake that this would indeed be real because they'd have a marked rattlesnake spot on every stage. Whisper it – Greek theatre's legendary acoustics are a myth https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/16/whisper-it-greek-amphitheatre-legendary-acoustics-myth-epidaurus Unlike the Great Ballcourt with a 6db gain compared to open space Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted June 20, 2019 #213 Share Posted June 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Kenemet said: Or not. The room wouldn't have been bare (there would have been other objects) and other people in the room. I assure you that you don't get "reverb" if a lot of people are standing around and the soundscape is cluttered with their bodies and their voices and sounds. Compare this to Greek theaters where there WAS a deliberate modification of the soundscape. The areas were unroofed and the audience was seated so that the sound bounced to them. In addition, all Greek theaters had this same sort of architecture so we can be reasonably confident that if the Greeks had planned for a spot where a chorus member could stand and clap so that the audience heard a rattlesnake that this would indeed be real because they'd have a marked rattlesnake spot on every stage. Presenting individual cases does nothing to prove anything. You have to show it's present everywhere AND in the condition present when it was constructed. They also had empty, large bronze vessels used as speakers, basically (cf. Vitruvius’ Decem Libri de Architectura). —Jaylemurph 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 20, 2019 #214 Share Posted June 20, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, WVK said: Whisper it – Greek theatre's legendary acoustics are a myth https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/oct/16/whisper-it-greek-amphitheatre-legendary-acoustics-myth-epidaurus Unlike the Great Ballcourt with a 6db gain compared to open space I didn't give the whispering any credibility, however, they could hear the actors clearly, which is what I referred to... but the more important issue was that they designed the architecture in a consistent manner to enhance sound. The ball courts aren't consistent. Hence, the soundscape is not necessarily planned. And none of the temples you point to are replicated anywhere else (and are "explored" for sound without their roofs or other accessories.) So far, there's no proof that these recorded echoes were even noticed by the Maya, much less used by them in any fashion though there's evidence that other cultures (Roman, Greek) modified soundscape areas. Edited June 20, 2019 by Kenemet 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 20, 2019 #215 Share Posted June 20, 2019 3 hours ago, WVK said: I realize that you will never accept this no mater what. The only thing I am not accepting is whether they did it intentional - for the good reason that you've decline to try and provide evidence to support that contention. A contention I might add you cannot do by showing YT videos. The data to support that idea simply doesn't presently exist. Everyone is pretty solid on the idea that sound bounces of walls-you can stop flogging that reality. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted June 21, 2019 #216 Share Posted June 21, 2019 8 hours ago, Hanslune said: From your link "A long the south wall of the Temple of Warriors are a series of what are today exposed columns, although when the city was inhabited these would have supported an extensive roof system." So you linked to ruins in Chichen, and one is of a video I believe you already posted before. Have you found images of Chichen priest clapping? Have you looked at the extensive anthropological studies of the current Maya to see if clapping is part of their religious ritual? Have you found out what sort of echo a Maya drum or horn causes? I already covered the horns, Hans. Try to keep up. Harte 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 21, 2019 #217 Share Posted June 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Harte said: I already covered the horns, Hans. Try to keep up. Harte its necessary to relentless repeat everything in this case 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 21, 2019 #218 Share Posted June 21, 2019 9 hours ago, WVK said: Like this? "") There was a circle of stone on the ground in the middle of a long ball court. When you stood on it the person standing on a similar circle at the head of the court (in the king's "booth") you can converse with that person as if they were a few feet away. The volume and clarity was startling considering that the stones were far apart (like 60+ meters). Very uncanny even by modem standards. I heard it for myself. https://tomzap.com/sounds.html 1) That's the ball court in Chichen Itza (not any other courts), and 2) it doesn't produce rattlesnake sounds or quetzal chirps or anything of that sort. My challenge to the "archaeoacoustics" fans are : Show me three separate buildings (which have been completely reconstructed, including roofs) where this effect occurs in the presence of iconography related to that sound. THEN I'll consider that it's far more plausible. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted June 21, 2019 #219 Share Posted June 21, 2019 35 minutes ago, Kenemet said: My challenge to the "archaeoacoustics" fans are : Show me three separate buildings (which have been completely reconstructed, including roofs) where this effect occurs in the presence of iconography related to that sound. I don't do buildings but if you use a whisk brush in a test trench of the Great Serpent Mound it sounds like Sir Hiss from Disney's Robin Hood. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 21, 2019 Author #220 Share Posted June 21, 2019 14 hours ago, Kenemet said: however, they could hear the actors clearly, which is what I referred to... but the more important issue was that they designed the architecture in a consistent manner to enhance sound. But according the article the design is not responsible the actors to be heard clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WVK Posted June 21, 2019 Author #221 Share Posted June 21, 2019 15 hours ago, Kenemet said: The ball courts aren't consistent. Hence, the soundscape is not necessarily planned. And none of the temples you point to are replicated anywhere else (and are "explored" for sound without their roofs or other accessories.) "View, looking north, of the Great Ballcourt, the largest one ever built in Mesoamerica. Its dimensions are such, many scholars have suggested that actual ballplay would have been impossible. They maintain it may have been used as a ritual space where the ballgame was never played but which was, nevertheless, charged with all the cosmological meaning of an actual ballcourt." http://www.mesoweb.com/chichen/features/tour/04.html Being able to communicate in a normal voice from one end to other and to those in the "field area" in a ritual space is very unlikely to be accidental. This is suported by other evidence: "In addition, all the reflections from the parallel walls of the ball court are first reflections, that is, they have a difference in arrival of less than 35 milliseconds with respect to the direct signal and therefore help the sound reinforcement of the message. The fact that the walls surrounding the north and south temple are less than the parallel walls of the court, prevent the rays that fall in this area from the north temple or the south temple are returned or reflected to the court, thus avoiding unwanted reflections and therefore interference." https://www.acusticaweb.com/acustica-arquitectonica/blog/acca-arquitecta/artlo-especial-sobre-la-acca-de-chichen-itz.html Ergo intentions design Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted June 21, 2019 #222 Share Posted June 21, 2019 12 hours ago, Hanslune said: its necessary to relentless repeat everything in this case In that case: Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted June 21, 2019 #223 Share Posted June 21, 2019 11 hours ago, Kenemet said: 1) That's the ball court in Chichen Itza (not any other courts), and 2) it doesn't produce rattlesnake sounds or quetzal chirps or anything of that sort. My challenge to the "archaeoacoustics" fans are : Show me three separate buildings (which have been completely reconstructed, including roofs) where this effect occurs in the presence of iconography related to that sound. THEN I'll consider that it's far more plausible. The above could still only be an indication that they merely noticed the effect and then established the iconography to indicate it. It would still be no argument that the effect was purposefully built into the design. Harte 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted June 21, 2019 #224 Share Posted June 21, 2019 10 hours ago, Piney said: I don't do buildings but if you use a whisk brush in a test trench of the Great Serpent Mound it sounds like Sir Hiss from Disney's Robin Hood. More like Kaa, I say. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windowpane Posted June 21, 2019 #225 Share Posted June 21, 2019 10 hours ago, Piney said: ... if you use a whisk brush in a test trench of the Great Serpent Mound it sounds like Sir Hiss from Disney's Robin Hood. You didn't mean Hissing Sid ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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