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Farmer77

America's 74 Year Cycle?

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Farmer77

An argument can be made regarding the event selection however its an interesting theory.

A historian explains why 2019 marks the beginning of the next 74-year cycle of American history

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A century ago, historian Arthur Schlesinger, Sr. argued that history occurs in cycles. His son, Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., furthered this theory in his own scholarship. As I reflect on Schlesinger’s work and the history of the United States, it seems clear to me that American history has three 74-year-long cycles. America has had four major crisis turning points, each 74 years apart, from the time of the Constitutional Convention of 1787 to today.

The first such crisis occurred when the Founding Fathers met in Philadelphia in 1787 to face the reality that the government created by the Articles of Confederation was failing. There was a dire need for a new Constitution and a guarantee of a Bill of Rights to save the American Republic. The founding fathers, under the leadership of George Washington, were equal to the task and the American experiment successfully survived the crisis.

 

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Dumbledore the Awesome

Well, according to another authoritative theory I was reading we're about ready for the Fourth Great Turning which will mean economic collapse and general catastrophe. 

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Imaginarynumber1

Damn website crashed my work computer

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Dumbledore the Awesome
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Donald Trump promotes disarray and turmoil on a daily basis, undermines our foreign policy and domestic policy, and is in the process of working to reverse the great  progress and accomplishments of many of his predecessors going back to the early 20th century.

Really all you can do is laugh at that. If he is trying to undermine america's foreign policy, the man deserves a ******in' peace medal. What other of the great progress and accomplishments of many of his predecessors is he trying to reverse? 

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RAyMO
59 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

Well, according to another authoritative theory I was reading we're about ready for the Fourth Great Turning which will mean economic collapse and general catastrophe.

well there certainly seem to be some political elites working very hard to prove that that theory.

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Alchopwn
2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

An argument can be made regarding the event selection however its an interesting theory.

A historian explains why 2019 marks the beginning of the next 74-year cycle of American history

It is a bad historian who cannot do basic maths.  The theory holds up a lot better if you opt for a 77 year cycle, yielding 1787, 1864, 1941, and 2018.  Still it is far fetched. 

I am far more inclined to believe in the "business cycle theory" of a small crash every decade and a large crash every 40 years as expressed in the Stereolab song "Ping Pong" LINK

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RavenHawk

Donald Trump promotes disarray and turmoil on a daily basis only on the Administrative (Deep) State that has entrenched itself into our system over the past 74 years.  Trump is the turning point where we will survive till the next crisis.

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RavenHawk
12 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

Really all you can do is laugh at that. If he is trying to undermine america's foreign policy, the man deserves a ******in' peace medal. What other of the great progress and accomplishments of many of his predecessors is he trying to reverse? 

The "great progress" referred to here is the Socialist agenda starting with Wilson, to FDR, to Johnson, to Obama and Trump could very well smash it and save the Republic.

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Alchopwn
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

The "great progress" referred to here is the Socialist agenda starting with Wilson, to FDR, to Johnson, to Obama and Trump could very well smash it and save the Republic.

Trump is the very demagoge that the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution with checks and balances to protect us from. All Trump has done is drive a deeper wedge into the USA's already overly divisive politics.  Too many extremist ideologues on both sides full of sound and fury without a brain in their heads.  Give me back the days of bipartisan agreement, science and pragmatism.  I see no Socialist agenda, but then I have travelled and have seen how much better most Western European and Scandinavian countries run their society than the USA does.  There is something to be said for giving ordinary people a measure of financial security and dignity that the USA seems to have forgotten, ultimately to its peril.  I hate seeing the working poor in agricultural states getting a raw deal administration after administration, but I don't think either the Reps or Dems have made any serious efforts to fix the problem, and that is the main reason for Trump.  Frankly those folks could benefit from a little governmental affection, even if some would call it Socialism.  FDR did exactly that during the Dust Bowl, and it did a lot of people a lot of good.

Edited by Alchopwn
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Farmer77
14 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Trump is the very demagoge that the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution with checks and balances to protect us from. All Trump has done is drive a deeper wedge into the USA's already overly divisive politics.  Too many extremist ideologues on both sides full of sound and fury without a brain in their heads.  Give me back the days of bipartisan agreement, science and pragmatism.  I see no Socialist agenda, but then I have travelled and have seen how much better most Western European and Scandinavian countries run their society than the USA does.  There is something to be said for giving ordinary people a measure of financial security and dignity that the USA seems to have forgotten, ultimately to its peril.  I hate seeing the working poor in agricultural states getting a raw deal administration after administration, but I don't think either the Reps or Dems have made any serious efforts to fix the problem, and that is the main reason for Trump.  Frankly those folks could benefit from a little governmental affection, even if some would call it Socialism.  FDR did exactly that during the Dust Bowl, and it did a lot of people a lot of good.

God Damn! Peggy Noonan is that you?

Great post, very well said.

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RavenHawk
8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Trump is the very demagoge that the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution with checks and balances to protect us from.

Wow!  Where were you during the last Administration?  Trump is the kind of President that would fit in with the company of the Founding Fathers.  If McNaughton were to add Trump to his painting, Trump would be on the bench next to the Forgotten Man with his hand on the man’s shoulder gesturing that things will be better.

 

All Trump has done is drive a deeper wedge into the USA's already overly divisive politics. 

Trump didn’t drive the wedge; he’s exposed it and the ones being divisive.

 

Too many extremist ideologues on both sides full of sound and fury without a brain in their heads. 

Yes, there are. but the extremists are actually on the same side.  If you take the standard Right/Left spectrum and fold it in half, such that you have 0% government control at one end and 100% government control at the other, the extremists of both sides would be racing toward the total control end.

 

Give me back the days of bipartisan agreement, science and pragmatism. 

As long as Socialism runs wild in our system, this is a pipe dream.

 

I see no Socialist agenda, but then I have travelled and have seen how much better most Western European and Scandinavian countries run their society than the USA does. 

Much better?  Then you are blind to the scourge of Socialism.  What you have seen is the gilded cage.  It didn’t work well in East Germany, or Cuba, and now Venezuela.  Europe at this point in time is but the mild, milk toast version of these.  This is the ultimate future of Europe if things do not change.  The tendency is for all government to travel toward that 100% end of the spectrum.  When it gets close enough, you end up with a Venezuela.

 

There is something to be said for giving ordinary people a measure of financial security and dignity that the USA seems to have forgotten, ultimately to its peril. 

Really?  What do you think happens to a person when things are just given to them?  When people become dependent on government, do they prosper or do they wither away?  The only real solution is to teach the individual how to fish.  If they can do that, then they can provide their own financial security and real dignity.  You don’t have dignity when things are given to you.  Whatever the government can give, the government can also take away and under Obama, he was taking away people’s dignity by telling them “you didn’t build that”.

 

I hate seeing the working poor in agricultural states getting a raw deal administration after administration, but I don't think either the Reps or Dems have made any serious efforts to fix the problem,

I wouldn’t necessarily call the farmer as working poor but Congress can certainly fix their plight.  Many of the Roosevelt era policies have just overstayed their usefulness.  The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) is one of them.

 

and that is the main reason for Trump. 

There is much to do.  My wife thinks that Trump should do something about student loans.  I think there are just too many things that need to be addressed.  Trump is focused on the important issues.  First things first.  Solving some of the more important issues may be the solution to others or at least make them easier to solve.  It’s not all going to be done overnight.

 

Frankly those folks could benefit from a little governmental affection, even if some would call it Socialism. 

Sometimes a placebo is beneficial but to treat someone with a serious illness, you don’t prescribe nothing but placebos.  The short-term relief of pain is what Socialism is like.  It may make you feel better for a while but it doesn’t cure the disease.

 

FDR did exactly that during the Dust Bowl, and it did a lot of people a lot of good.

What he did was a knee-jerk reaction to a tragedy that needed immediate relief.  It succeeded but it was not meant to be permanent.  It did more harm in the long run.  To get real solutions, it will take some pain.

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Alchopwn
On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

Wow!  Where were you during the last Administration?  Trump is the kind of President that would fit in with the company of the Founding Fathers.  If McNaughton were to add Trump to his painting, Trump would be on the bench next to the Forgotten Man with his hand on the man’s shoulder gesturing that things will be better.

Obama was morally untouchable.  The Reps tried to smear Obama over and over again and nothing ever stuck in the slightest because he was saintly clean.  What doesn't stick to Trump?  He's a "NYC property developer" which is short hand for "Mob Money Laundry".  It is so obvious that he is dirty as sin.  No tax return.  Porn star wife.  Rape allegations.  Russian connections going back to the late 80s.  Curls up like a hedgehog every time his personal conduct is questioned. Obviously guilty but cannot be convicted because he is a sitting President.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

Trump didn’t drive the wedge; he’s exposed it and the ones being divisive.

Okay, that 's just straight up laughable.  I can see you are just a dogmatic Trump supporter who can't see his glaringly obvious faults.  No doubt all the stuff that has come out about him, and all the people who were part of his administration who are now in jail is just fake news to you.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

Yes, there are. but the extremists are actually on the same side.  If you take the standard Right/Left spectrum and fold it in half, such that you have 0% government control at one end and 100% government control at the other, the extremists of both sides would be racing toward the total control end.

That isn't true either.  You don't have to want more government involvement in society to be an extremist.  You can also be a libertarian and be a fool and an extremist.  No society lasts long when their government has no power, that's called anarchy and people get murdered in the streets over food.  No society where the government has all the control is worth living in either, as that sort of extreme authoritarianism is also unliveable.  The fact is that a happy medium has always been the best answer, unless you are rich and want to get richer at the expense of society, in which case you want something closer to anarchy so you can impose new rules to your own liking.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

As long as Socialism runs wild in our system, this is a pipe dream.  Much better?  Then you are blind to the scourge of Socialism.  What you have seen is the gilded cage.  It didn’t work well in East Germany, or Cuba, and now Venezuela.  Europe at this point in time is but the mild, milk toast version of these.  This is the ultimate future of Europe if things do not change.  The tendency is for all government to travel toward that 100% end of the spectrum.  When it gets close enough, you end up with a Venezuela.

You obviously have no idea of what a working Social Democracy looks like.  The answer is Scandinavia.  They have great social services and social security and much happier societies than the USA.  You are equating Socialism with Communism, which is a false equivalency LINK.  These countries are also richer than the USA per capita too.  Also China is a Communist country, so by your faulty metric they should be an utter disaster too, and yet they are rapidly becoming more prosperous than the USA.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

Really?  What do you think happens to a person when things are just given to them?  When people become dependent on government, do they prosper or do they wither away?  The only real solution is to teach the individual how to fish.  If they can do that, then they can provide their own financial security and real dignity.  You don’t have dignity when things are given to you.  Whatever the government can give, the government can also take away and under Obama, he was taking away people’s dignity by telling them “you didn’t build that”.

Wow. You really have no idea what I'm talking about do you?  I am suggesting something totally different to what you think the issue here is.  I am talking about making sure that the minimum wage isn't a starvation wage which forces people into a poverty trap where people cannot ever find opportunities because they are too busy continuously working for a miserable pittance.  I am talking about making a minimum wage that keeps pace with household expenses, so people can raise a family and not face potential death from unaffordable medical expenses.  I think a fair day's work deserves fair pay, and the more money there is in the economy in every one's hands, (not just the hands of the rich), the more people will buy and the richer everyone will ultimately be.  There is ample evidence that this economic system works too.  Apparently you want man to live by fish alone, and begrudge your neighbor the means of survival.  Not very humane of you.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

I wouldn’t necessarily call the farmer as working poor but Congress can certainly fix their plight.  Many of the Roosevelt era policies have just overstayed their usefulness.  The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) is one of them.

Yes, lets not protect our farmers from driving themselves out of business thru their overproduction crashing their commodity prices.  Good idea.  Throw them to the wolves and watch the banks repossess their farms as they struggle to make ends meet.  The AAA legislation has dated, but it still has its place for protecting US Agriculture.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

There is much to do.  My wife thinks that Trump should do something about student loans.  I think there are just too many things that need to be addressed.  Trump is focused on the important issues.  First things first.  Solving some of the more important issues may be the solution to others or at least make them easier to solve.  It’s not all going to be done overnight.

The trade war with China is going to tank the economy hard. The USA has spent decades trying to free up world trade, and Trump is now supporting protectionism.  It is a tactic that may work, but expect the present economic situation to collapse rapidly.  I have been  invested in gold since 2001 when market analysts said that the gold standard should be abolished.  I bought in very low, the bottom of the market, and I have seen nothing but blue skies since. In case you hadn't noticed, gold is up again.  That means that people are running for economic security, and that is what my investments in gold production sell them, and it is a seller's market atm.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

Sometimes a placebo is beneficial but to treat someone with a serious illness, you don’t prescribe nothing but placebos.  The short-term relief of pain is what Socialism is like.  It may make you feel better for a while but it doesn’t cure the disease.

Considering that you don't actually know what Socialism is, I don't think you can make a proper comment about it.  I am not a Socialist, I am a Social Democrat btw.  Do not assume that I don't understand Capitalism however, I just think we can do better and fairer.

On 6/21/2019 at 7:53 AM, RavenHawk said:

What he did was a knee-jerk reaction to a tragedy that needed immediate relief.  It succeeded but it was not meant to be permanent.  It did more harm in the long run.  To get real solutions, it will take some pain.

Clearly you know nothing about the history of the FDR era and the  government's fight to stop the dustbowl THAT WORKED.  LINK  

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RavenHawk
On 6/22/2019 at 4:35 PM, Alchopwn said:

Obama was morally untouchable. 

I didn’t think anyone was this naïve.

 

The Reps tried to smear Obama over and over again and nothing ever stuck in the slightest because he was saintly clean. 

Not a smidgen of corruption.

 

What doesn't stick to Trump?  He's a "NYC property developer" which is short hand for "Mob Money Laundry".  It is so obvious that he is dirty as sin. 

Being a New York business man is not synonymous to being a criminal.  But that is certainly an environment that one must build up thick calluses just to be able to operate.  That’s survival, not criminal.  If you claim that Trump is guilty as sin, then you do not understand anything about character.  One can only wonder about you with the avatar you have chosen??

 

No tax return. 

That doesn’t prove a thing.  You do recall in the very first episode of “Apprentice”, he explains his tax problems and how he solved it.  It was highly unorthodox but perfectly legal.  After the likes of Kavanaugh, Flynn, and many others who have had their lives destroyed or at least tarnished and you think Trump is stupid enough to expose others to the witch hunt by releasing his taxes?  Dream on.

 

Porn star wife. 

Really?  She was a high class fashion model.  At 5-11, made her a commodity.  Have you seen her GQ shoot?  Most models must have at least one risqué shoot (tease not nude) or they are not considered a serious model.  But that would be up to the eye of the beholder.

 

Rape allegations. 

And that is all they are.  The standard way of dealing with them is to just pay off instead of fighting because as we can see, if someone has a vendetta against you, they will go after anybody near you.  It’s cheaper to settle out of court even if you are innocent.

 

Russian connections going back to the late 80s. 

And?  Business connections do not equate to collusion.  If that were the case, then Pelosi and Schumer and Hunter Biden are up to their necks guilty.  We already know Hilary is.  Trump is an American businessman with international interests.  That’s more American that these so-called American companies that have sold out to international interests.

 

Curls up like a hedgehog every time his personal conduct is questioned. Obviously guilty but cannot be convicted because he is a sitting President.

He does what?  He’s obviously guilty because he is for the people and throws a wrench into the workings of the Prog agenda.  That makes him dangerous and guilty.

 

Okay, that 's just straight up laughable.  I can see you are just a dogmatic Trump supporter who can't see his glaringly obvious faults. 

You’re a dogmatic Trump hater.  Trump is no angel.  That’s why people voted for him.  It’s not about his faults but his capabilities to improve this nation.

 

No doubt all the stuff that has come out about him, and all the people who were part of his administration who are now in jail is just fake news to you.

It is pretty much fake news.  Innuendo mixed in with fabrication all from perceived incidents.  As a great example is your description “all the people” and “who are now in jail”.  Talk about reaching, trying to get as much crap to stick to the wall as possible.  When one looks closer, there are two people that have gone to jail.  Manafort on fraud charges from 10 years before Trump knew him and Cohen on charges of tax evasion (his not Trump’s) and a charge on illegal campaign contribution to influence an election.  For that last charge: One, that was Trump’s money and not from the campaign, Two, if Trump was not running for office, the act is standard procedure in the industry, and Three, Hilary’s Dossier was intended to effect an election.  How much did Steele get for it?  The hypocrisy runs deep with Progs.

 

That isn't true either. 

Yes it is.  I just didn’t take the extra time to explain it as I usually do.

 

You don't have to want more government involvement in society to be an extremist. 

Actually you do.  That is the ultimate goal of extremists.

 

You can also be a libertarian and be a fool and an extremist. 

That is so much nonsense.

 

No society lasts long when their government has no power, that's called anarchy and people get murdered in the streets over food. 

That is correct.  But anarchy is a transition from one form of government to another which is desired.  That is what Obama was trying to do and the Progs continue.  They want to take this nation from a Constitutional Republic to a Social Democracy (or Democratic Socialist), whatever, they are in essence the same.  A proper government is one that protects the rights of its citizens by way of limited government.

 

No society where the government has all the control is worth living in either, as that sort of extreme authoritarianism is also unliveable. 

And that’s what people are not understanding.  All government starts off on the spectrum that I had just described.  The tendency for *ALL* government is to move to the 100% control end.  That’s every government, including this one.  Presidents like Wilson, FDR, Johnson, and Obama have tried to ride us in that direction, but we have a system in place that prevents that.  When Socialism put a strain on this system, like an invasive weed, the Administrative State began to grow.  Most governments have no check on this tendency and ultimately becomes authoritarian.

 

The fact is that a happy medium has always been the best answer,

Correct and it is called the Constitution, not Socialism.  The happy medium is achieved when limits are placed on government control.  Socialism cannot operate with such controls.

 

unless you are rich and want to get richer at the expense of society, in which case you want something closer to anarchy so you can impose new rules to your own liking.

That is crony capitalism or just another flavor of Socialism.  That is what Socialism does; it wants to impose new rules.  Everyone wants to be richer and society is a springboard that we all take advantage of.  Crony capitalism exploits society.

 

You obviously have no idea of what a working Social Democracy looks like.  The answer is Scandinavia.  They have great social services and social security and much happier societies than the USA. 

I obviously do and Sweden has been trying to back away from Socialism as many other places in Europe, but they find it difficult.  Brexit is perhaps the most successful attempt to break away from socialism.  I’d hate to go down in history as the nation that gave us NHS as its last act.  Germany gave us Socialism and look what happened to it in two world wars.

 

Like I said, that is a gilded cage.  How free are people really?  A government that gives its people just about everything enslaves them.  Is that conducive to human nature, to the human spirit?  This is what Socialism is.  It robs people’s dignity and self-reliance.

 

You are equating Socialism with Communism, which is a false equivalency 

LINK

Yes I am and no it is not.  The one thing that all governments have in common is that they take more and more freedoms from the people.  Some do it faster than others.  There is nothing that can stop this except something like our Constitution that limits power over the people.  It still requires enough patriots to follow the rules or even the Constitution will not be enough to prevent our spiral into tyranny.  It doesn’t matter what you call it.  Academia has given many names to the various flavors but the name does not make one less evil than the next.

 

These countries are also richer than the USA per capita too. 

Material wealth is not the measure of happiness.  Happiness is the full exercise of one’s natural rights.  Locke defined it as Life, Liberty, and Property.  Or the unhampered pursuit of property.  Franklin suggested to Jefferson to change Property to ‘the Pursuit of Happiness’.  Property need not be material.  It could be intellectual or something altruistic.

 

Also China is a Communist country, so by your faulty metric they should be an utter disaster too, and yet they are rapidly becoming more prosperous than the USA.

They are on the verge of economical collapse and the tariffs are adding pressure.  They’ve been trying to change the rules and play by their own.  They can’t; the economic physics don’t work that way.  The more they try, the more Tiananmens and Hong Kongs there will be.

 

Wow. You really have no idea what I'm talking about do you? 

I know precisely what you are talking about.  I don’t think you really know what you are talking about.

 

I am suggesting something totally different to what you think the issue here is. 

Oh?

 

I am talking about making sure that the minimum wage isn't a starvation wage which forces people into a poverty trap where people cannot ever find opportunities because they are too busy continuously working for a miserable pittance. 

Socialism doesn’t raise people up out of a starvation wage.  Perhaps in the short term but it is ultimately unsustainable.  The best it can do is to lower everyone equally to the lowest level of starvation wage.  That is the trap.  The natural existence of man is to do for themselves.  Government interferes with that ability.  Government interference causes people to lose that natural ability to do for themselves.  That is not good.  That is never desired.

 

I am talking about making a minimum wage that keeps pace with household expenses, so people can raise a family and not face potential death from unaffordable medical expenses. 

Then the solution isn’t to take money from the wealthy.  The solution is for government to create the environment for the individual to achieve.  Can the government encourage people to be successful, inform people how to be successful?  Instead of making excuses like how this country was never great or you didn’t build that or that manufacturing jobs will never come back or just accept the new normal!  Government is responsible for establishing the character and spirit of the nation, not squander its wealth.

 

I think a fair day's work deserves fair pay,

That goes without saying.  But to continue on with your mindset, who is it that establishes what fair pay is?  Any answer that is not “the market” is the wrong answer.

 

and the more money there is in the economy in every one's hands, (not just the hands of the rich), the more people will buy and the richer everyone will ultimately be. 

Sounds like wealth envy to me?  Wealth redistribution does not put more wealth back into the economy.  Who do you think purchases the big ticket items like private jets or yachts?  It is usually the rich.  Who usually receives that payment?  Those that built the jet or yacht.  That money then goes to wages, supplies, and bills.  That’s how money circulates through our economic system, going top down.  Undirected wealth disperses and is wasted.

 

Let’s say a boat builder needs to raise prices to maintain the same quality but an upstart boat builder comes along and builds quality boats for much less.  The wealthy will go to them for their boats.  It’s not the fault of the wealthy seeking quality at as cheaply as they can get.  The problem is with the one that undercut the market.  Your hatred is misplaced on the rich.

 

People become wealthier by being better managers of their money than just buying things.

 

There is ample evidence that this economic system works too. 

What system is that?  You seem to be implying a Capitalist system but describing it as Socialist.  Your underlining means of control is the government not the market.

 

Apparently you want man to live by fish alone, and begrudge your neighbor the means of survival.  Not very humane of you.

It’s a metaphor.  If you learn how to fish, then you will always have the skill or the means of survival.  If you depend on getting fish from the government, then you will forever be dependent on the whims of government.

 

Yes, lets

not protect our farmers from driving themselves out of business thru their overproduction crashing their commodity prices.  Good idea. 

I see, the farmer is too stupid to manage their own land.  Only the wisdom of the government can save the day.  It would be a good idea to have some sort of guidance or oversight in farming practices but leave it up to the farmer to make that decision.

 

Throw them to the wolves and watch the banks repossess their farms as they struggle to make ends meet.  The AAA legislation has dated, but it still has its place for protecting US Agriculture.

You're stuck in the dust bowl era.  I think farmers are more educated now.  Things like the AAA were meant to be a temporary stop-gap, not the ‘culture’.  Farmers find it difficult enough today trying to make ends meet because of overregulation.

 

The trade war with China is going to tank the economy hard.

It is?  I think it will only make our economy stronger.  There will be bumps but a prosperous people do not worry about bumps.  One learns how to ride the bumps.

 

The USA has spent decades trying to free up world trade, and Trump is now supporting protectionism. 

And China has been trying to take it over.  They cheat.  They don’t play by the rules.  What Trump is doing is not protectionism.  It is just being protective; America first.  He's doing his job.  When the neighbor keeps on steeling the paper from your yard, eventually you put an end to it.

 

It is a tactic that may work, but expect the present economic situation to collapse rapidly. 

Anything worthwhile carries risk.  The economy is strong; it’s not going to collapse.  It survived Obama, it can withstand a trade war with China, just as long as we have the will.  Socialism has a tendency to dampen will.

 

I have been  invested in gold since 2001 when market analysts said that the gold standard should be abolished.  I bought in very low, the bottom of the market, and I have seen nothing but blue skies since. In case you hadn't noticed, gold is up again.  That means that people are running for economic security, and that is what my investments in gold production sell them, and it is a seller's market atm.

Then you shouldn’t be rooting for the collapse of the market.  Gold is a great investment whether we have a gold standard or not.  But you’ve been listening too much to the doom and gloom.  If there is a cataclysmic collapse of society, in a post-apocalyptical world, gold will be pretty worthless.  And unless you are hoarding it, you won't be able to access it.  What will be valuable is if you can fish.

 

Considering that you don't actually know what Socialism is, I don't think you can make a proper comment about it. 

I understand it all too well, thank you.  I would say you’ve been hoodwinked on what Socialism is.  Sounds like you’re in a fantasy world.

 

I am not a Socialist, I am a Social Democrat btw. 

And the real difference is?  That was rhetoric but the only answer is “none”.

 

Do not assume that I don't understand Capitalism however,

I’m going off your words and your words say that you don’t.

 

I just think we can do better and fairer.

We definitely can if we can stop getting politicians trying to recklessly give out the store.  We need to unleash the free market and not the crony capitalism of Socialism (government controlled markets).

 

Clearly you know nothing about the history of the FDR era and the  government's fight to stop the dustbowl

THAT WORKED.  LINK  

*I* don’t know the history of FDR?  That is my family history.  “The Grapes of Wrath” was the story of my family.  Don’t tell me otherwise.  Even though I was born well after WWII, I was raised as a “next year’s people”.  It is a mindset that I still have trouble overcoming once in a while.  What your link missed is that agriculture of that extent had never been tried in the region.  we didn’t understand the circumstances or the environment.  Today, I’d say that we do understand now.  The Dust Bowl ended in 1939 so why are we still using Depression era policies?

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Katniss
2 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

That is crony capitalism or just another flavor of Socialism.  That is what Socialism does; it wants to impose new rules.  Everyone wants to be richer and society is a springboard that we all take advantage of.  Crony capitalism exploits society.

 

We definitely can if we can stop getting politicians trying to recklessly give out the store.  We need to unleash the free market and not the crony capitalism of Socialism (government controlled markets).

I have to ask. RavenHawk, how does crony capitalism relate or equate to socialism when the two words capitalism and socialism are opposite in their meaning from one another?

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Dumbledore the Awesome

That's because "Socialism" is an all-purpose word for anything that people find disagreeable. 

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aztek
5 minutes ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

That's because "Socialism" is an all-purpose word for anything that people find disagreeable. 

maybe for you it is , but for anyone living in reality, it has a very clear definition.  it is also easy recognizable by anyone who actually lived in socialism, just ask ex soviets

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Katniss
1 minute ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

That's because "Socialism" is an all-purpose word for anything that people find disagreeable. 

I was thinking that maybe in this case RavenHawk made a mistake in comparing the two as the same. But I do know what you mean and have seen it many times.

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aztek
Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Katniss said:

I have to ask. RavenHawk, how does crony capitalism relate or equate to socialism when the two words capitalism and socialism are opposite in their meaning from one another?

result is the same, very few ultra rich, (either capitalists, or socialist gvmnt officials) everyone else poor as dirt,  similar what you would see in 1930 and before,, or today in Venezuela

Edited by aztek

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Katniss
17 minutes ago, aztek said:

result is the same, very few ultra rich, (either capitalists, or socialist gvmnt officials) everyone else poor as dirt,  similar what you would see in 1930 and before,, or today in Venezuela

So by your comparison this includes the business class? Poor as dirt.

 

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aztek
Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Katniss said:

So by your comparison this includes the business class? Poor as dirt.

 

what business class?  are we talking about seating arrangement on an airplane, or you talking about capitalists? capitalists are the rich ones, gvmnt officials are the rich ones as well, everyone else are poor ones, 

RH is absolutely correct crony capitalism is very much like socialism, where only elite classes are well off.  in one gvmnt and only gvmnt officials owns things are rich, in other capitalist and gvmnt officials making sure capitalists make money, by making laws and policies favoring those ppl over everyone else,

Edited by aztek

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Katniss
4 minutes ago, aztek said:

what business class?  are we talking about seating arrangement on an airplane, or you talking about capitalists?

I'm sorry, wrong word usage. I meant business people, merchants, corporations.

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Katniss
2 hours ago, aztek said:

what business class?  are we talking about seating arrangement on an airplane, or you talking about capitalists? capitalists are the rich ones, gvmnt officials are the rich ones as well, everyone else are poor ones, 

RH is absolutely correct crony capitalism is very much like socialism, where only elite classes are well off.  in one gvmnt and only gvmnt officials owns things are rich, in other capitalist and gvmnt officials making sure capitalists make money, by making laws and policies favoring those ppl over everyone else,

I see you have edited your post again and added more clarification. And going by your clarification, for example - the co-operated corruption going on between the Robber Barons and the politicians while forsaking the poor during the Industrial Revolution would be the same as socialism?

I also found a few definitions from this interesting academic article with further explanation on crony capitalism. But it doesn't seem to relate it with socialism. And I can't find any academic source that relates the two in the same way. And in fact, I always understood that with socialism, a socialist government controlled business people, merchants, corporations making these entities subject to them, but they don't work together to oppress everybody else.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/686474

Quote

 

Definition 1: “Crony capitalism is a term describing an economy in which success in business depends on close relation-ships between business people and government officials. It may be exhibited by favoritism in the distribution of legal permits, government grants, special tax breaks, or other forms of state interventionism.

Definition 2: “Crony capitalism is lobbying by someone I don’t like for something I don’t like” (Rubin).

 

 

 

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aztek
2 minutes ago, Katniss said:

I see you have edited your post again and added more clarification. And going by your clarification, for example - the co-operated corruption going on between the Robber Barons and the politicians while forsaking the poor during the Industrial Revolution would be the same as socialism?

I also found a few definitions from this interesting academic article with further explanation on crony capitalism. But it doesn't seem to relate it with socialism. And I can't find any academic source that relates the two in the same way. And in fact, I always understood that with socialism, a socialist government controlled business people, merchants, corporations making these entities subject to them, but they don't work together to oppress everybody else.

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/686474

 

 

maybe you should talk to someone who lived in real world socialism, not paper version from academic articles

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Katniss
1 hour ago, aztek said:

maybe you should talk to someone who lived in real world socialism, not paper version from academic articles

(I wanted to wait for a while before I replied, just in case you wanted to edit again.)


Oh but I have. And it is the reason why I asked RavenHawk my question in the first place. In Russia, I have several online friends and in our past political conversations they have explained to me about their current Russian government, to which they have explained to me many times, both their government and the rich business people there work together creating a Oligarch system for their benefit. They have called this crony capitalism many times before and they've explained to me this is completely different to the pre-Soviet socialist era, not the same, where as the Soviets took away the independent individual rights of the rich business people and their companies beforehand and subjugated them all under oppressive Soviet socialist rule. So for that reason, I have a hard time understanding how crony capitalism and socialism are one in the same. It makes no logical sense.

 

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Alchopwn
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

*I* don’t know the history of FDR?  That is my family history.  “The Grapes of Wrath” was the story of my family.  Don’t tell me otherwise. 

Grapes of Wrath? FFS, you're obviously Lennie from "Of Mice and Men".

As for the rest TL;DNR.

Edited by Alchopwn

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