Israel slammed for child deaths

[ExpandMyMind]

11 minutes ago, Setton said:

Except they don't. If EMM's data is correct, we'd never see any other news if the MSM actually did 'scream from the rooftops whenever a Palestinian is killed'. 

B'Tselem are the most reliable source for the data.

[ExpandMyMind]

10 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

That's not correct @Setton. The BBC would have reported all of those deaths. In some cases, they even name the dead. 

That doesn't happen with Yemen. Or any of the African conflicts that Black Red Devil mentioned ! 

You're telling me you believe that the BBC have issued almost 10,000 news reports on Palestinian deaths in 20 years? I highly doubt that they have reported even a third of the 700 or so child deaths the past 10 years.

Why do you believe that Palestinian deaths aren't reported proportionately? I mean, you're right that it gets more attention than some other regions, and I gave a couple of possible reasons why that might be, but why do you think this is the case?

Edited June 18, 2019 by ExpandMyMind

[RoofGardener]

15 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

You're telling me you believe that the BBC have issued almost 10,000 news reports on Palestinian deaths in 20 years? I highly doubt that they have reported even a third of the 700 or so child deaths the past 10 years.

Why do you believe that Palestinian deaths aren't reported proportionately? I mean, you're right that it gets more attention than some other regions, and I gave a couple of possible reasons why that might be, but why do you think this is the case?

That's only 500 a year ExpandMyMind. With many events having multiple deaths, then that might only be a story every few days. 

Actually, I should clarify... I'm thinking of reports on their website, not necessarily on the TV or Radio news. 

This is only anecdotal evidence, I know, but I can't recall reading a story about Palestinian deaths (in any media) that was NOT covered on the BBC News website ? 

Edited June 18, 2019 by RoofGardener

[+and-then]

5 hours ago, Setton said:

Oh diddums. Did the nasty posters not like you because you're OK with killing civilians?

Tough ****. 

I notice you don't dispute my words, diddums.  You also got it right - they ARE nasty.  And eaten up with hate.  The "eaten up" part quite pleases me.

[+and-then]

5 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

They need to compromise

The only compromise that Hamas wants is all the land and it Judenfrei.  They say it, not me.  So what do you believe Israel could do to compromise?  Ideas?

[Setton]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

That's not correct @Setton. The BBC would have reported all of those deaths. In some cases, they even name the dead. 

That doesn't happen with Yemen. Or any of the African conflicts that Black Red Devil mentioned ! 

Really? All 4000 odd? 

[+and-then]

2 hours ago, third_eye said:

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They bulldozed Rachel they did, poor wee Rachel... 

 

[00.08:58]

~

Remember Rachel... 

Just a point, third... she looks small and wiry and physically fit, does she not?  You are probably aware of how fast and agile bulldozers are, no?  Do you honestly expect anyone to believe she was run down as she attempted to flee it?  I think it's a shame that she died because of her arrogance but, it happens all the time.  My bet is that she expected that U.S. Passport to make her invulnerable.  It was a situation where the driver was told to do a job, she decided she would do a Tiananmen move and the dozer won.  So I would echo your sentiment for all the other kids that would go there expecting to defy the government of Israel in such a way... Remember Rachel.

[RoofGardener]

35 minutes ago, Setton said:

Really? All 4000 odd? 

Pretty much, yes. 

[Setton]

1 hour ago, and then said:

I notice you don't dispute my words, diddums.  You also got it right - they ARE nasty.  And eaten up with hate.  The "eaten up" part quite pleases me.

Sure it does. That's why you had such a hissy fit when called out on your comments. 

[Alchopwn]

7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

HAMAS has publicly stated that it expects its civilians to become martyrs, and to act as human shields. (or, to look at it a different way, HAMAS treats all of its civilians as militia members). 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-hamas-civilians-human-shields

That includes their children too.  I know.  It is utterly repugnant.  There is simply no excuse for it.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Alchopwn

[Black Red Devil]

7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Umm.. just a minor quibble, but Israel isn't alone in doing this. Gaza has a land border with Egypt, remember. 

Strictly speaking, the sea at the Westernmost part of the Gaza Strip (near Khan Yunis) borders with Egyptian waters, so Gazan's can cross directly into Egyptian waters ? 

Egypt (and Israel) are securing their borders via land, it's not a blockade per say.  Israel is actually impeding movement of goods in and out of Gaza via sea and air, even essential living necessities which is illegal.

[Black Red Devil]

3 hours ago, and then said:

The only compromise that Hamas wants is all the land and it Judenfrei.  They say it, not me.  So what do you believe Israel could do to compromise?  Ideas?

The PA is the recognised authority, not Hamas.

[SHaYap]

7 hours ago, and then said:

Just a point, third... she looks small and wiry and physically fit, does she not?  You are probably aware of how fast and agile bulldozers are, no?  Do you honestly expect anyone to believe she was run down as she attempted to flee it?  I think it's a shame that she died because of her arrogance but, it happens all the time.  My bet is that she expected that U.S. Passport to make her invulnerable.  It was a situation where the driver was told to do a job, she decided she would do a Tiananmen move and the dozer won.  So I would echo your sentiment for all the other kids that would go there expecting to defy the government of Israel in such a way... Remember Rachel.

 

Well, I know you will be reminded by JC, I'm sure your faith will be ensured by people of great faith like Rachel Corrie... 

~ 

[+and-then]

6 hours ago, Setton said:

Sure it does. That's why you had such a hissy fit when called out on your comments. 

Hissy fit?  You mean when I called you an effing liar in no uncertain terms, THAT "hissy fit"?  That's a strange way to defend yourself but if it works for you, so be it   Trust me Essie old sock, old shoe, you aren't unique or bold.  There are at least three others here who've tried that whole "you said" when it was actually "I say, you said" and it never works.  When called out and told to cite the post where I've said "X"... they change the subject and move on, like the weasels they are and everyone sees them for what they are, every time.  But gopher it!  Sure and you might get lucky someday and convince someone  

[+and-then]

33 minutes ago, third_eye said:

 

Well, I know you will be reminded by JC, I'm sure your faith will be ensured by people of great faith like Rachel Corrie... 

~ 

I don't doubt that she believed in her cause.  Most Palestinians are brainwashed to hate as well.  What she did smacked of arrogance bordering on insanity.  I believe she honestly thought her passport made her invulnerable and bulldozers can't read.  She refused to move until it was too late and she learned, quite painfully, I'd imagine, that others in that land had opinions just as strong and sincerely meant.  She isn't a saint or even a martyr, just a dumb, arrogant kid that paid the price of her hate.

[SHaYap]

3 hours ago, and then said:

I don't doubt that she believed in her cause.  Most Palestinians are brainwashed to hate as well.  What she did smacked of arrogance bordering on insanity.  I believe she honestly thought her passport made her invulnerable and bulldozers can't read.  She refused to move until it was too late and she learned, quite painfully, I'd imagine, that others in that land had opinions just as strong and sincerely meant.  She isn't a saint or even a martyr, just a dumb, arrogant kid that paid the price of her hate.

I guess I'll just leave that between you and your God, just so you know, Rachel is and was somebody's child too...

~

[RoofGardener]

9 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The PA is the recognised authority, not Hamas.

That is not pertinent to the Gaza Strip  

In addition, Egypt restricts physical materials crossing at their Rafah border, just as Israel does at their borders. However, not by as much as you might imagine. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerem_Shalom_border_crossing

HAMAS has attacked this border crossing three times. So clearly the smooth import of vital materials is not a high priority to them ? 

[Setton]

7 hours ago, and then said:

Hissy fit?  You mean when I called you an effing liar in no uncertain terms, THAT "hissy fit"?  That's a strange way to defend yourself but if it works for you, so be it  

That's the one. Where you threw such a paddy because I actually did have evidence that they had to clean the whole thread. 

Quote

Trust me Essie old sock, old shoe, you aren't unique or bold.  There are at least three others here who've tried that whole "you said" when it was actually "I say, you said" and it never works.  When called out and told to cite the post where I've said "X"... they change the subject and move on, like the weasels they are and everyone sees them for what they are, every time.  But gopher it!  Sure and you might get lucky someday and convince someone  

Already have cited the post repeatedly. 

And here it is again (regarding an attack on civilians):

On 14/06/2019 at 5:45 PM, and then said:

 I have no idea if this was a FF.  Frankly, I don't care.  Iran needs stopping and if threats like this will force them to negotiate then I'm okay with that.  

 

[Alchopwn]

21 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

I understand your experience and I don't think Hamas is good for the Palestinians either.  

It isn't just Hamas.  The PLO and many of the other Palestinian organizations have had AMPLE opportunity to seek and obtain peace.  They cannot even accept that Israel has a right to exist.  They always say "What Israel?", and then set about some elaborate prevarication so they don't have to say that they accept that Israel has a right to exist.  This means that in their hearts they have always demanded genocide, as was the case in 1947 when they promised to drive the Jews into the sea.  I am not Jewish, but this not an acceptable attitude imo.

21 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

But you have to consider that Israel has blockaded all access in and out of Gaza by air and sea, Palestinians in Gaza can't trade or build.  Gaza is one of the most densely populated regions on Earth where close to 2 million people live in a territory 41kms long and 6-12kms wide (from sea to the Israeli border).  They have no job prospects, money or future. 

That is entirely because of the Mafia organization that runs their lives.  That organization routinely sells the materials they are sent for rebuilding to Israel for money for guns.  Did you know that the wall was built using concrete bought from the PLO for rebuilding?  As to the fact that Gaza has no jobs, money, or future well, the Palestinians made it a war zone by repeatedly attacking Israel.  The fact is, the business of the region is organized crime, and forming brutal militias to oppress their own people.  If they live in hell it is of their own making.  By saying that is somehow bad, and blaming Israel for it, you are playing into the hands of some of the worst people I have ever met.

21 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

People say it's Hamas' fault for firing rockets at Israel.  Is it?  Would the world be listening and acting if they didn't fire the rockets?  Has the world been doing anything about the illegal settlements in the West Bank that Israel continues to expand?  No, so what makes you think it would be different in Gaza? 

Yes.  It is Hamas' fault.  The're a criminal organization with about as much legitimacy as the Russian mob and grubbier tactics.  Nobody talks about how they rape their own to force their loyalty and compliance.  Look, Israel is no beacon of shining light, but they didn't start the war.  The Palestinians actively sought to attack the Jews, largely due to the British using divide and conquer tactics during the days of the Mandate, but ultimately because they are xenophobic.  The early Zionist proposals for Palestine was utterly inclusive of the Palestinians, and there are in fact plenty of Palestinian Arabs living in Israel with full citizenship, but nobody talks about them  LINK.  It is always the criminals living "beyond the pale" that get the attention.  Hamas could use their cash for rebuilding and living in peace, but instead they shoot rockets at Israel, an Israel bombs them in return.  This suits Hamas much as it suited the IRA.  While the conflict continues, Hamas have a free hand to control and abuse their people.  They're the worst sort of scum, and pro-Nazi to boot, despite the fact that Nazis would just gas them.

22 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

The war was started because the Jews decided they had a right, by Gods will, to a territory that now was mostly inhabited by Arabs. 

Incorrect.  You need to read a less biased history book, or at least read both sides.  The war started because of the British Mandate.  The Jews wanted their own homeland after getting sick of being persecuted across Europe.  Their initial efforts in Palestine were very friendly and accommodating of the Palestinians.  The purchase of land in Palestine by the Jews was gradual, and had been going on since the 1880s LINK.  The Jews offered good prices for the land, but various unscrupulous operators among the Palestinians began to use shabby lending practices to get control of other Palestinians' land and sell it at a profit, then blame the Jews.  Then the British realized that the Jews were serious so they started fermenting further Palestinian hostility towards Israel so that their Imperial forces would be seen as necessary to keep the peace.  The Palestinains due to their muslim xenophobia didn't need much encouragement.  The Grand Mufti of Palestine was eager to drive the Jews out, and was a huge fan of Adolf Hitler, thinking that with Britain and the Jews gone, he would be king.  This was the man who was Yasser Arafat's mentor btw.  The Palestinians in 1947 said that they would drive the Jews into the sea, and they failed.  Was the Jewish claim to Israel neo-colonialism?  A bit, but there had been a permanent presence of Jews in the territory despite the enforced Roman Diaspora, pretty much forever.  It can and has been proven with census documents.  I consider the British and the Palestinians equally to blame for starting the conflict.  Original Jewish Zionist proposals were for a state that respected existing religious sites, and granted full citizenship, voting rights and religious freedoms to everybody.  These days, having fought many wars, the Jews are less forgiving and reasonable.  I understand why.

22 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

. The Jews were smarter and showed grit in winning against superior Arab forces in post WWII battles and have now become a dominant force in the region thanks to US aid over the years. The problem they have is they still have Gaza on their border and 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.  They're huge obstacles and no matter how hard they try they won't be at peace, ever, until they fix the Palestinian problem.  They need to compromise but unfortunately until Zionists in Israel control the Knesset it will never happen.

I don't think Israelis think that peace is possible or necessary any more.  The Palestinians are not willing to negotiate seriously, and their armed gangs aren't interested in peace.

20 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Are you saying a Hamas fighter that you went to meet somewhere or a Hamas fighter that was captured by Israel? If it was the latter, I wouldn't trust his testimony.

I met up with some aid workers in a bar in Tel Aviv, and we got talking.  I am a great fan of dive bars btw.  They made the introductions for me with Hamas officials.  I bought food supplies, and we chatted politics while the women prepared the meal.  I work as a translator as I have a few languages including Arabic.  At the time I was pretty pro-Muslim, and a bit anti-Israel.  Over the course of time that opinion swing radically in the other direction as I realised just what and who I was dealing with.  I am now very anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian, and a bit pro-Israel.  This is not to say that I am uncritical of Israel, but I think they get a bad rap, and that is unfair.

20 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Al, I have only heard this behavior blown up greatly in the media just this one time, prior to the Israeli invasion of Gaza. And I never heard it again - certainly not like that.

There are a LOT of different factors and factions involved in the issue of covering events in the Middle East.  Everyone's got an agenda.  Most coverage in the West is biased to be anti-Israel, because most reporters are a bit left wing.  Of course this is completely stupid as the Muslim values and Left wing values have nothing in common, and one might even say that they are antithetical in every way and on every issue, except the need to look after the poor.  Much of the coverage coming out of the region these days is via Al Jazeera, and that is pretty anti-Israel, and there is plenty of effort to court Saudi money in Europe and the USA.  It is easy to criticise Israel, but their position is invidious, and frankly I am always surprised by how much restraint they show.

21 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I understand you've been there but I am still not convinced that that is a fighting tactic of Palestinians. Never heard of it before, never heard of it since. I think you got set up to help spread the word. Just my opinion.

No, that just isn't the case.  I am not going to name drop, but I spoke to known Hamas reps.  This was no Mossad propaganda sting, this was a chat over dinner.  Plus I got debriefed by Mossad a couple of days later and they weren't exactly friendly.  I nearly got deported.  Big fiasco. I had friends in the media who wanted to get involved, and I had to work hard to de-escalate everybody.  It was a ton of B.S.  I am sure that Mossad tapped my phone, and they only relented when they heard I wanted my media buddies to run a story on how Hamas was using children as human shields for propaganda purposes.  Needless to say, my media buddies were much more interested in running a story about how Mossad were being pricks, and getting me deported, and I was just worried that my curiousity might have got me sacked from my job.  I guess I asked for it, and I should have been more discrete. You live and learn.  I was a d******* twentysomething at the time.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

@Alchopwn  Good stories  

[RoofGardener]

On 18/06/2019 at 1:55 PM, Black Red Devil said:

........The Jews were smarter and showed grit in winning against superior Arab forces in post WWII battles and have now become a dominant force in the region thanks to US aid over the years... The problem they have is they still have Gaza on their border and 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs.  They're huge obstacles and no matter how hard they try they won't be at peace, ever, until they fix the Palestinian problem.  They need to compromise but unfortunately until Zionists in Israel control the Knesset it will never happen.

 

Umm... I'm not entirely sure that is accurate, @Black Red Devil ? Most US aid only started arriving after 1973 (just after the Yom Kippur war), and that was military 'aide' geared up to helping Israel act as a bulwark against growing Soviet influence in the region. (the Yom Kippur war came as a BIG shock to the USA, when it realised just how much military aide the Soviet Union was giving to Syria and Egypt - among others). 

I'm not REALLY sure of my figures here, but I think you'll find that "The Palestinians" (originally the PLO, and now more recently the PA) have recevied almost as much general aid money as Israel has done over the years. Israel used the money to help build a country. The Palestinians used the money to build a grudge. 

Edited June 19, 2019 by RoofGardener

[Phaeton80]

22 hours ago, and then said:

Just a point, third... she looks small and wiry and physically fit, does she not?  You are probably aware of how fast and agile bulldozers are, no?  Do you honestly expect anyone to believe she was run down as she attempted to flee it?  I think it's a shame that she died because of her arrogance but, it happens all the time.  My bet is that she expected that U.S. Passport to make her invulnerable.  It was a situation where the driver was told to do a job, she decided she would do a Tiananmen move and the dozer won.  So I would echo your sentiment for all the other kids that would go there expecting to defy the government of Israel in such a way... Remember Rachel.

You disgusting sad excuse for a Christian you. Now Im used to quite a bit of nasty BS coming form your little deprived corner, but this is a new low. Lowest of low, you should be ashamed of yourself if you had an iota of civility, Christianity, or empathy in you.

Edited June 19, 2019 by Phaeton80

[Setton]

5 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

The PLO and many of the other Palestinian organizations have had AMPLE opportunity to seek and obtain peace.  They cannot even accept that Israel has a right to exist.  They always say "What Israel?", and then set about some elaborate prevarication so they don't have to say that they accept that Israel has a right to exist

To play devil's advocate: why does Israel have an inherent right to exist on that patch of land? 

For comparison, why would you argue the US or the UK have an inherent right to exist where they do? 

I ask only to understand your reasoning. 

[Setton]

22 hours ago, and then said:

Just a point, third... she looks small and wiry and physically fit, does she not?  You are probably aware of how fast and agile bulldozers are, no?  Do you honestly expect anyone to believe she was run down as she attempted to flee it?  I think it's a shame that she died because of her arrogance but, it happens all the time.  My bet is that she expected that U.S. Passport to make her invulnerable.  It was a situation where the driver was told to do a job, she decided she would do a Tiananmen move and the dozer won.  So I would echo your sentiment for all the other kids that would go there expecting to defy the government of Israel in such a way... Remember Rachel.

And that's a hat trick.

3 times in a week you've explicitly supported the killing of innocents. 

[+and-then]

 

 

 

12 hours ago, third_eye said:

I guess I'll just leave that between you and your God, just so you know, Rachel is and was somebody's child too...

~

They might have done a more thorough job in teaching her the consequences of her actions.  She might well still be alive.  I don't think my query about the bulldozer was responded to, third.  It was a serious statement.  Bulldozers are amongst the slowest, most ponderous pieces of heavy equipment that exist.  Do you believe this young, agile 20 something couldn't get out of its way?  Do you believe the driver actually wanted to kill an American protester enough to attempt to run her down?  No, I believe that in their heart of hearts those parents know they failed her on some level.